What twin engine Jet Fighter Suits PAF Doctrine?

[Tameem]

I might doubt that. specially considering their ties with India and having a much bigger business with it. they have a history of longer cordial relations.
we might get a 2nd tier tonned down versions of jets that dont cause much concern to Indians but that is that. I understand that I am contradicting my opening post that included Su-35 but that was only based on some comments from PAF veterans and some repeated news items.

I don't think so, we would have any problem working with Russian like raming down our throats tone down or second class equipment. In current scenario, where there is an agreement in the pipeline where both USA and India can use each other airfields and assets, Russian will be more than happy to pass on some big item numbers like SU35 to put salt on Indo-US relations. The problem is, Pakistan currenlty don't have to stomach to confront USA directly by going towards SU35...Simple, unless of course we are thrown towards Russia by US himself.

 

[Khafee]

What people here failed to understand , that relying just on J-31 can turn out to be a disaster for PAF like in 90's ...
if J-31 failed to meet our requirements than by 2020 what we will have in our inventory ?

Sir, PAF is involved in the development of the J-31 from day one, just like the JF-17. They KNOW what they are getting themselves into. IF they decide to procure it tomorrow, it won't be because the Chinese say it's a 5th Gen aircraft, it's because the PAF knows it fits the bill.

Secondly, like @DESERT FIGHTER said, PAF should also look at the Turkish program. IMO the Korean one as well. In both these programs PAF's involvement could be technical as well as financial. Finance coming from that popular Pakistani Bank, "Silk Bank" SILKBANK

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Sir, PAF is involved in the development of the J-31 from day one, just like the JF-17. They KNOW what they are getting themselves into. IF they decide to procure it tomorrow, it won't be because the Chinese say it's a 5th Gen aircraft, it's because the PAF knows it fits the bill.

Secondly, like @DESERT FIGHTER said, PAF should also look at the Turkish program. IMO the Korean one as well. In both these programs PAF's involvement could be technical as well as financial. Finance coming from that popular Pakistani Bank, "Silk Bank" SILKBANK

generally , looking at other joint programs with countries like Korea and Turkey have a big issue of limitations from the suppliers of some components like engines and avionics. the reason we didnt go for Gripen was due to American components and I doubt if Turkish and Korean alternatives will be 100% free from Western components.

 

[Khafee]

generally , looking at other joint programs with countries like Korea and Turkey have a big issue of limitations from the suppliers of some components like engines and avionics. the reason we didnt go for Gripen was due to American components and I doubt if Turkish and Korean alternatives will be 100% free from Western components.

Sir, absolutely! But when you are involved in an R&D project financially, you too have some intellectual rights. You can use that knowledge to built a formidable one, with China.

Secondly, it's not your money you are investing, it's Silk banks, so what do you have to loose?

 

[MastanKhan]

What people here failed to understand , that relying just on J-31 can turn out to be a disaster for PAF like in 90's ...
if J-31 failed to meet our requirements than by 2020 what we will have in our inventory ?

90-100 F-16's ..
200-250 Blk 3 JF's
and nothing more
Mirage and F-7's will be retired ..

do we have a alternative ? PAF is actually looking for Alternative .. ? NO ..
if PAF did not buy or at least plan to buy any 4.5+ Gen Fighter at least 2 Sqs of it , than we will have a weak Airforce , that can be put par with Third world country's forces ..Forget about about have Air dominance of Pakistan ..

our Options are limited but it seems PAF is too relaxed and already assumed that there wont be any War with India in near future ... their Planning and Forecasting is worse than sethaiya Company ..

F-15's or F-18 will be best bet for Pakistan . 2 sqs ( 36 ) units will make huge difference .. 1 sqs can entirely be dedicated for Naval Strike with 1-2 JF sqs at back up .. but US wont sell 15's and 18's to PAF because of multiple reasons ..

so what can be our next Option ? J-11 ? or Su-35 ? its again hard but not impossible
but at least PAF need to create a different strategy or new Doctrines .. or else our Air Space will be at " Allah wastay "

@MastanKhan

Hi,

We already are a weak air force----. Paf planners have chopped the legs out from under the pakistani positive / progressive stance.

This agency does not have the ballz to think with a straight head----. There are one too many THINKERS in the paf---.

Untill and unless PAF is NOT OPENLY BASHED on the public forum---that is on the Pakistan TV talk shows---it won't change---.

Until and unless the public does not hear the SHENANIGANS of the Paf on tv channels----this force will stay incompetent in its actions.

Instead of acquiring the right aircraft in a timely manner---the Paf GAMBLED on the future outcome of the relationship of the two countries---and the lack of procurement of a proper weapon--put pakistan in a very weak position.

 

[Khafee]

JH-7B - Handicaps:

There might be more, but what pops up immediately is the fact that it is a poor fighter in terms of WVR. So how do we get around it?

@MastanKhan ?

 

[Blue Marlin]

A very good thread. Very good points. So besides the financial issues why is the PAF NOT inducting 4.5Gen aircrafts? Because, like Mr. @Tameem said "is more of a strategic and political decision than anywhere technical or financial." Having said that, lets remove the "finance issue" from the equation, once and for all.

In the Pakistani context lets see ideally what capabilities should a twin engine fighter have:

1) Long Range / Loiter time
2) EW warfare capability
3) A payload < 4 tons
4) Buddy to Buddy Refueling
5) Easy to maintain, and an availability rate < 90%
6) Immune to Embargoes
7) Ability to change the current doctrine of "defensive" to "offensive"

Now lets look at what twin engine fighters are out there and a brief description of their handicaps.

In Random Order:
1) F-15 - The US declined Qatar, who happens to host the US's largest air command center in the ME. So Pakistan's chances are slim to none.

2) F-18 - The APG-79's reliability issues, lower hours of MTBF, and is heavily embargo prone.

3) Eurofighter - IF a certain level of manufacturing is outsourced to PAC, and the payment is spread over 10 years then why not. Example - Each aircraft has a price tag o US$130m including training and parts, multiply by 50 = US$6.5Bn. Now divide that US$6.5Bn by 10 = US$650mn / annum.

4) Rafale - France will sell to PK? A very long shot. Even if it does, in the event of hostilities, France could deny BOTH countries spares, there by restricting the fleets effectiveness. Secondly, fleet growth options could be seriously restricted. So best stay away from it.

5) Su-35 / Mig-35 - Can very well work if 100% Chinese support exists. Otherwise, reliability issues will plague PAF like the rest of the users.

6) J-11/ J-16 - Well if a donation was made to certain Russian top official, it can happen, with Russian engines!

7) JH-7B - For the price, and as a stop gap measure, no other aircraft gives you this capability. Bang for the Buck.

@Irfan Baloch @MastanKhan @Manticore @Sarge @Blue Marlin Your comments please?

khafee lad. lets look at this again shall we.....

1. yes the f15 is not going to pakistan thats final.

2. the f18 has a moderate chance, here. boeng is willing to move the f18 production line to india if if orders/commits to ordering 200 jets. india is not going to order 200 jets and the chances of them ordering a lot of them is slim, very slim. and the chances of ordering them in low numbers, or about 2 squadrons is nill. the superhornet is powered by the gef414 engine. also the t-50 trainer which paf is interested in is also powered by the same engine. also the lca-mk2 has the same engine too. but the f18 is near enought the same spec as the f16. in the past when the usaf wanted a multirolefighter the f16 by lockheed and the f18 from mcdonald doughlas (now boeing) were compeating for the same tender. lockheed won. and mcdonald doughlas was sold to boeing and when the navy wanted a carrier based jet the f18 was chosen as it similar in spec to the f16 and was twin engined.

3. the typhoon.... this jets is perfect for pakistan it will run rings around the mig29 and the su-30mki. even when the iaf came here our typhoons were tamed so that its true preformance was never shown. yet it did a very good job. the typhoon consortium is looking for countrie in the niddel east and east asia for orders. pakistan can very easily ored the jets as the british government would not have a problem as it would maintain thousands of jobs here.

4. the rafale wont be sold to pakistan as india is buying them and pakistan buying them after is strange yet hypothetical. but hypothetically if both countryis were to buy them it would be a test of who is the best pliot.

5. su35/mig-35- lets start with the su-35. its near enough the same spec as the mki. so why spend billions on a jet that slightly better than the mki and in low numbers. russia is know to buting good products but they have t maintained more. more than its western counterpart. so a jets known to be a hangar queen and one on low numbers is a shooting yourself in the foot. besides russia will refuse to sell the jet as india is providing more business to russia than pakistan.
one can argue this by saying the mil-35 is in india and pakistan is getting them too but thats a low grade weapon and wont play a big part in a waras compart to a fighter jet.

6. the jh-7b is a good jet. one that pakistan cab buy and at a very good price and a jet. but i dont think its avaliable for export. i have not seen the jh-7 at any chinese stands as" export ready" as compard the the j-31, jf-17, j10 l15 and the jl9 which can be exported. mind you pakistan can just ask and the chances of china saying yes is almost gurantied.

now take everything that i said and throw it away.

i made it clear that pakistan is not interested in a twin engined 4th gen fighter. why? it's not looking for a twin engined fighter? simply because it does not need one. pakistan is looking for a 5th gen fighter which will be ordered by about 2019 and begin to recieve them in about 2022 so in the space of 6 years you dont think pakistan needs a new platform? no, the jf17 program will run up untill 2020 where the line would be changed to produce 5th gen fighters or an extention to build a new line. as export orders may contribute to keep the jf-17 line open beyond 2020. and also running in parralel woube be the f16 procurment program where pakistan would buy new and used f16's is sort of similar to the rose program with th mirages where old jet were brought and upgraded.

also it not only the fighters that need to be replaced. the c30's only have another 15 years left in them as the new upgrade will ad 15years of life to them and the t-37's need to be replaced. the most likely contender it the tai hurkus. which would explain why tuaf donated the t-37 to pakistan to up keep the fleet untill the hurkus is ready.

the lead in fighter trainer (lift the t-50 or the l15) even with that im not sue what they will pick but i think the l15 or the jl-9 as it cheaper than the t-50 and theres no export restrictions as with the t50 there is as the usa can block t-50 sales as lockheed contributed to it development. which led to the t-50 being blocked form being sold to uzbekistan due to the usa vetoing the sale.

interesting times are comming for paf
@Irfan Baloch @Manticore
@Khafee

 

[surya kiran]

The practical option is the Panavia Tornado. The RSAF operates it. Ask for transfer of the same via some deal. @Irfan Baloch @MastanKhan

 

[MastanKhan]

A very good thread. Very good points. So besides the financial issues why is the PAF NOT inducting 4.5Gen aircrafts? Because, like Mr. @Tameem said "is more of a strategic and political decision than anywhere technical or financial." Having said that, lets remove the "finance issue" from the equation, once and for all.

In the Pakistani context lets see ideally what capabilities should a twin engine fighter have:

1) Long Range / Loiter time
2) EW warfare capability
3) A payload < 4 tons
4) Buddy to Buddy Refueling
5) Easy to maintain, and an availability rate < 90%
6) Immune to Embargoes
7) Ability to change the current doctrine of "defensive" to "offensive"

Now lets look at what twin engine fighters are out there and a brief description of their handicaps.

In Random Order:
1) F-15 - The US declined Qatar, who happens to host the US's largest air command center in the ME. So Pakistan's chances are slim to none.

2) F-18 - The APG-79's reliability issues, lower hours of MTBF, and is heavily embargo prone.

3) Eurofighter - IF a certain level of manufacturing is outsourced to PAC, and the payment is spread over 10 years then why not. Example - Each aircraft has a price tag o US$130m including training and parts, multiply by 50 = US$6.5Bn. Now divide that US$6.5Bn by 10 = US$650mn / annum.

4) Rafale - France will sell to PK? A very long shot. Even if it does, in the event of hostilities, France could deny BOTH countries spares, there by restricting the fleets effectiveness. Secondly, fleet growth options could be seriously restricted. So best stay away from it.

5) Su-35 / Mig-35 - Can very well work if 100% Chinese support exists. Otherwise, reliability issues will plague PAF like the rest of the users.

6) J-11/ J-16 - Well if a donation was made to certain Russian top official, it can happen, with Russian engines!

7) JH-7B - For the price, and as a stop gap measure, no other aircraft gives you this capability. Bang for the Buck.

@Irfan Baloch @MastanKhan @Manticore @Sarge @Blue Marlin Your comments please?

Hi,

B1 bomber----project started in the 70's----air force started getting it in the mid 80's----and to learn to use it to its potential---somewhere around the late 90's---.

So---for over 15 years---this aircraft in service was growing thru INTEGRATION and technical issues----.

Then came the afghan war after 9/11 and the iraq war---and that is when the aircraft started developing into an extremely potent strike aircraft and it is reaching is peak almost after 30 years of its induction into the air force.

And in the last 5 years---this aircraft has got a job never planned---dreamed or assumed for it in its lifetime----to become the STANDBY BVR delivery truck for the F22 and F35 aircraft in combat when facing the enemy in higher numbers.

Two things have changed the playing field amongst many---use of composite material---and SMART ELECTRONICS.

Smart electronics has given a new life to older aircraft that could not be imagined by the ordinary people even 1--2--3--4 years ago---but many an ex U S air force personal have written about these weapons in the so called works of fiction 20---25 years ago.

So---basically---in this day and age---there is NO end of life upgrade----you cannot say that this upgrade will be the last upgrade of this type of aircraft.

But there is not that much money to be made in these modifications----. For the manufacturer---money is in making new things---that is when the funds are released in huge amounts----the upgrades keeps the business rolling.

For Pakistan---a potent naval air strike force is a must---. What it does primarily is split up the enemy air force from the land towards the ocean---thus reducing the number of aircraft on the punjab and sindh and kashmir border---.

Secondly---with long range capabilities---it can keep the enemy naval flotilla much farther off the striking distance to karachi and other areas----.

Third---its aircraft need to fly out and strike at 750---1000 miles outwards at minimum----and there is only one aircraft that can do all that---the JH7B---.

Paf will need a 5th gen aircraft---and it would be used in a same complimentary position to the JH7B---as the B1 is going to be used by the F22.


And for pakistan----these two are the perfect aircraft----working in tandem and side by side.

 

[Blue Marlin]

The practical option is the Panavia Tornado. The RSAF operates it. Ask for transfer of the same via some deal. @Irfan Baloch @MastanKhan

they are quiet old and are being upgraded by bae systems. the only time pakistan will get the tornado from the saudis is only during a war

 

[Irfan Baloch]

JH-7B - Handicaps:

There might be more, but what pops up immediately is the fact that it is a poor fighter in terms of WVR. So how do we get around it?

@MastanKhan ?

define what do you meran by "weak" and what will be strong

read @MastanKhan's earlier posts, and read my amended opening post again
we already agreed that the platform itself is strong just needs updated avionics which we already have from JF-17 and J-10..
if you are still not clear then explain what you dont understand? list down your primary requirements for a strong twin engine jet. and then list down what you see weak in the J H7 which you call handicaps.. the ones that I identified were vintage avionics that can be replaced with the compatible modern avionics present newer Chinese jets. check out the cockpit of J-10 and JF-17.. are they modern enough for you?

coming back to JH7, it has weight capacity more range speed over 1.7mac) has the room to accomodate the J-10 or JF-17 radar.. where is it lacking for you

 

[surya kiran]

they are quiet old and are being upgraded by bae systems. the only time pakistan will get the tornado from the saudis is only during a war

They will eventually get the 5th gens from china or the us. They need something which will tide them over till the. There could be a deal between the UK, Saudis and Paks.

 

[Blue Marlin]

They will eventually get the 5th gens from china or the us. They need something which will tide them over till the. There could be a deal between the UK, Saudis and Paks.

read the really long post that i spent ages on, and that will answer your question to save youtime i go the part you need

i made it clear that pakistan is not interested in a twin engined 4th gen fighter. why? it's not looking for a twin engined fighter? simply because it does not need one. pakistan is looking for a 5th gen fighter which will be ordered by about 2019 and begin to recieve them in about 2022 so in the space of 6 years you dont think pakistan needs a new platform? no, the jf17 program will run up untill 2020 where the line would be changed to produce 5th gen fighters or an extention to build a new line. as export orders may contribute to keep the jf-17 line open beyond 2020. and also running in parralel woube be the f16 procurment program where pakistan would buy new and used f16's is sort of similar to the rose program with th mirages where old jet were brought and upgraded.

 

[Khafee]

The practical option is the Panavia Tornado. The RSAF operates it. Ask for transfer of the same via some deal. @Irfan Baloch @MastanKhan

And would require the blessings of the British Govt. and @Blue Marlin, both of which are interested in selling the newer EF. IF you were to go against their wishes, it would be an issue to maintain them, without BAE's support.

 

[Blue Marlin]

And would require the blessings of the British Govt. and @Blue Marlin, both of which are interested in selling the newer EF. IF you were to go against their wishes, it would be an issue to maintain them, without BAE's support.

dont worry you can bend david over quiet easily nowadays. he's a push over. if you give bae a decent order the government will give the nod with a bit or persuasion from the saudis. although the germans may block the deal as germany is germany and a bit weird nowadays