What's new

What twin engine Jet Fighter Suits PAF Doctrine?

I think first we need to analyze why we need a twin-engine fighter? -Yes because it will have extended range and load but for which role?
IMO Pakistan requires long range fighter jets to defend our maritime borders and deal with a intimidating IN Air power.
JF-17 for that matter will only be good for coastal defence but for striking out the adversary jets and attacking the ships would be an uphill task.

So which twin-engine jets don't stand a chance (in our case):
F-18 - Great Aircraft for Naval role but too many strings attached
Typhoon -way expensive and still possibility of restrictions
Rafale -not a chance after Indian MMRCA deal
Mig-29K -same reason IAF already have them + not relatively gives much additional capabilities over others in discussion
J-11 -cannot be exported by China

So to cut it short the only possible option left seems to be of either Su-35 or JH-7B
Su-35 -Seems possible if the deal is handled out well from diplomatic point of view. An order in small numbers say 8 or complete squadron should be the start (not the whole requirement order placed all at once which i think would be about 2-3 Squadrons) then gradually increase the orders in upcoming years. Reason would be that Russia would have an excuse to Indian lobby that such small order would not change the balance of the region and our small budget can afford to have a squadron strength or smaller no of Su-35s
JH-7B -can be the next best option. No strings attached. Have a decent load and range. Can utilize existing Chinese weapons for naval role. Only problem would be is that would it have room to be upgraded according to PAF requirements and remain useful for next 15-20 years?

Dear what abt A2A capabilities of JH7B, though it is an upgraded platform yet I doubt it is a true multi role platform. In case of budget constraints Pak require true multi role fighter jet ideally may be allocated for deep strikes both on land and enemy naval assets without any escort of fighter jets.
 
.
but they always say "mulk ka difaa kerne ke liye har dam tayar hain " :what:

Hi,

They can say that because no knowledgeable person has ever confronted them---with what and how---.

It is all a drama staged by Paf----they current and previous generation wants to claim the victories of their grand fathers as their own----and even in those victories were deadly blunders---.

Dear what abt A2A capabilities of JH7B, though it is an upgraded platform yet I doubt it is a true multi role platform. In case of budget constraints Pak require true multi role fighter jet ideally may be allocated for deep strikes both on land and enemy naval assets without any escort of fighter jets.


Hi,

I guess you missed it---. There is no true multi role twin engine heavy aircraft available to pakistan.
 
.
Hi,

They can say that because no knowledgeable person has ever confronted them---with what and how---.
.
one doesnt have to be much knowledgeable and look at previous encounters with India where lets say PAF performance was found .... erm... "lacking"

what I am going to quote below is actual communication between army and airforce. now I dont have any issue with what was said and done but question is.. did PAF make any visible effort towards its its thinking and action to address its short comings? maybe it did or maybe not enough.

somewhere in west Pakistan in Punjab sector
our positions are under attack by IAF, requesting help.
"fend for yourself, our air base is itself under attack"
 
.
Hi,

They can say that because no knowledgeable person has ever confronted them---with what and how---.

It is all a drama staged by Paf----they current and previous generation wants to claim the victories of their grand fathers as their own----and even in those victories were deadly blunders---.

how can our Air force be so dumb ? or its just they are taking advantage of the blind trust from the people of Pakistan ?
 
.
one doesnt have to be much knowledgeable and look at previous encounters with India where lets say PAF performance was found .... erm... "lacking"

what I am going to quote below is actual communication between army and airforce. now I dont have any issue with what was said and done but question is.. did PAF make any visible effort towards its its thinking and action to address its short comings? maybe it did or maybe not enough.

somewhere in west Pakistan in Punjab sector
our positions are under attack by IAF, requesting help.
"fend for yourself, our air base is itself under attack"


Irfan,

That is what the problem has been with the PAF---. They were not there when the army needed them----they were not there when the navy needed them.

The paf did not go off their way to help the navy or air force---.

And you already know about the missile gunboats coming towards karachi in 1971---and as the pakistan airline reported the visuals to the control tower who relayed the information to the air force---the base commander instead of launching recce intercept aircraft---rather call the air chief for directions---what supposedly stated---" let the navy take care of its problems ".

And then was the call to help at Longewala----again the same answer---.

how can our Air force be so dumb ? or its just they are taking advantage of the blind trust from the people of Pakistan ?


Hi,

It is about the arrogance in them----we are above everyone----.

They have not been confronted on the public forum----.
 
Last edited:
.
Hi,

It about the arrogance in them----we are above everyone----.

They have not been confronted on the public forum----.

that is problem .. they wont come to open forum , as they will think its their insult ..
after all we are just " bloody Civilians " to them :D
 
.
Irfan,

That is what the problem has been with the PAF---. They were not there when the army needed them----they were not there when the navy needed them.

The paf did not go off their way to help the navy or air force---.

And you already know about the missile gunboats coming towards karachi in 1971---and as the pakistan airline reported the visuals to the control tower who relayed the information to the air force---the base commander instead of launching recce intercept aircraft---rather call the air chief for directions---what supposedly stated---" let the navy take care of its problems ".

And then was the call to help at Longewala----again the same answer---.




Hi,

It is about the arrogance in them----we are above everyone----.

They have not been confronted on the public forum----.
fighter wing of Navy is a must specially when 80% of our exports are via sea

that is problem .. they wont come to open forum , as they will think its their insult ..
after all we are just " bloody Civilians " to them :D
I wont go that far. its not as if they re arseholes or something. like low life. they are smart and all that its just that their ideas are different. and there is no room for apology anuyone can perform well in best of conditions. rthe real test is when the odds are against you in terms of time, money , resources, instability and lack of options... thats where the leadership shines and makes the best of what you got. there wont be any motivation to excel when you have no natural enemy, strong lobby in the US that lines up to lick your feet and you're gifted with natural resources yes talking about KSA they got best toys the money can buy but nothing is rubbish. but every country is not like it so we must deal with it in best possible manner instead of denying a problem with our thinking or lamenting over the hurdles (economic, political, emotional whatever)
 
.
Irfan,

That is what the problem has been with the PAF---. They were not there when the army needed them----they were not there when the navy needed them.

The paf did not go off their way to help the navy or air force---.

And you already know about the missile gunboats coming towards karachi in 1971---and as the pakistan airline reported the visuals to the control tower who relayed the information to the air force---the base commander instead of launching recce intercept aircraft---rather call the air chief for directions---what supposedly stated---" let the navy take care of its problems ".

And then was the call to help at Longewala----again the same answer---.




Hi,

It is about the arrogance in them----we are above everyone----.

They have not been confronted on the public forum----.

Fukups of the past... But it seems these issues have been rectified ... The concept of operations in tandem has been consolidated ... The joint military exercises like Azm e nau etc and the joint PAF-PA coordination in WOT are very solid steps !


But yes I agree ... PN should invest in a fighter wing... Realistically speaking they should raise 2 Sqds of JF (with PAFs help of course)... And build from there!
With CPEC & expansion of maritime territory protection of sea lanes should be a priority and all of that can't be left of PAF which itself is facing challenges.
 
Last edited:
.
Pakistan should go for SU-35 ,lol we dont have any choice except it , We should get the Su-35 just to be on the safe side until the j-31 doesn't get fully operational then we can go for the j-31 . At the moment Pakistan is not buying any long range jet and is waiting for the j-31 which will at least take 8 years to come in PAF hands , we could use the Su-35 as an alternate for j-31 .
 
.
the assumption of the thread is that the readers who are smart enough to pick up this thread in an air force section of Pakistan defence forum have the basic understanding of limitations of light, medium, heavy jet fighters from single to twin engine fighters. and its definitely beyond showing off on republic day.
the hint was in the subject PAF doctrine.which is has been aggressive in nature and the subject here is twin engine and readers that accept that premise are invited to contribute. those that don't

well they got countless threads out there to state otherwise ;)

Of course but I was merely expressing the power of one. Myself. Whether that makes me stupid, uniformed or othewrwise I leave that to others to judge.

Afghanistan is a problematic area now and would remain the same for some more years till a proper Air force a formed..

F-16s are more than anything the Afghan's can throw at Pakistan, now or well into the future.

IRAQ, Syria and Yemen security would eventually fall upon Pakistan after the West leaves same as the case was with Afghanistan and Iraq.

With possible exception of Afghanistan rest of them will never be left to Pakistan. Never. Near East will for long time come under the shadow of the West. Why do you think they call it "Near East"?

Arab League's peace keeping missions along with UN would also increase.

Arab League is ARAB league and nothing to do with Pakistan unless Pakistan adopts Arabic and that is remote since besides other factor's Pakistan Bollywood addicts could never surrender Urdu.

UN? Since when does UN require twin jets. Plain old guy with AK-47 and can of blue or white spray can will do the trick.


F-16s can handle that easy.

Shipping lanes

From whom? USA? Somali pirates? Or India. For the first threat few twin jets are as good as my right fist. The second threat- Give me a break.

India? Yes, very true but that would be part of over all war with India. If India was chocking Pakistan by using it's superior navy few twins would struggle and at any rate if tthe threat was serious enough our nuclear option would be triggered.
 
.
Twin Engine Jet anyone?


Over the decades PAF has become essentially a single engine Multi role fighter Air force. either through necessity, doctrine or limitation of funds ... PAF has written off the twin engine jets.

there are compelling arguments and counter arguments both for and against the twin vs. single engine jets. while the enthusiasts try to come to terms with or try to understand the PAF doctrine both during war and peace...



a certain news about the potential interest in buying or joining the Chinese J-31 program suggested that PAF was finally going to break its self imposed ban on twin engine jets. on the side lines PAF officials were also known to have evaluated the European twin engine jets like Typhoon and Rafales but such events never went beyond evaluations.
and then there were news about the Su-35 when kept coming up repeatedly.


so lets see if PAFreally has decided to break a fast on twin engine jets then what kind or type of twin engine jet it is likely to go for? it will be most likely a multirole fighter , maybe a missile / bomb truck or a spear head net to the latest PAF F-16s

for the sake of starting a discussion I have listed few jets above.

  • J-11 ? why not, specially when we are allowing ourselves to talk about Su-35s. it will be a good missile truck and if Russia approves then it might make its way into PAF.
  • SU-35? well there is no harm in dreaming. if the unthinkable happens it will increase PAF potency many folds. and will form the top tier of the PAF fighter jets.
  • J-31? maybe likely for the future but most is unknown about it and it might remain on PAF likely shortlist for future.
  • F-A 18? again why not? if F-16 block 52 are cleared by USA and PAF, time and again goes to US because it cant get enough of the F-16s then why not another American multirole twin engine jet? if not the latest Super hornet class then maybe the earlier blocks? maybe least likely but no harm in making a guest appearance.

I could have mentioned a likely twin engine J-10 (naval version) but I am not sure if it is even developed or ditched in favour of existing Chinese J-11s or J-16s.


ok guys get on with it and contribute your ideas.

@MastanKhan @batmannow @Khafee got you a thread now View attachment 283837

Special Addition JH 7B

Although originally I dismissed it based on the capabilities of its original blocks and vintage avionics but all could be changed when the supplier is you joint partner of JF-17 program.

I should have added this in the original post due to its relevance. it is a good candidate with 4-4.5 generation avionics and upgrades for 2020+ usage. the supplier is reliable and there is room and freedom for customization and improvement and best of all it might provide best value for money.
View attachment 283995


upload_2015-12-31_15-32-25.png


Above are the specs from the public access data.

J31 seems to be a good choice as the platform is a 5 th gen fighter.

On the j31 there are some questions that I am slightly confused on.

Engine: The J31's use the same Klimov RD 93 engines as of now on the test bed which may or may not be replaced by a chinese variant. Compare the J31 ranges with the Mig 35/ Mig29 OVT and Mig 29 K which uses the most recent variant of the RD33 series - RD33 MK, similar 17.5 Ton loaded/Gross weight, the ferry range of the Mig 35 is 3100Km with 3 Ext Drop tanks, whereas the J31 is being advertised as a 4000 Km Ferry range.Given that both aircrafts are of similar empty weight around 11-11.5 tons and have a 17.5 ton loaded weight, there is a good chance that both carry similar internal fuel, thus the combat range of the J31 in stealth configuration might not be1200 Km as advertised, rather around 500-600 Kms similar to that of a F16. That would put the idea of deep strike into a pickle.

Airframe: AVIC says that a lot of additive mfg was used in the test bed, and hence could not be dis-assembled during the transportation for testing. As the production models are out to 2019, if any of the RP techniques make it into the production model it will be a nightmare of maintenance and fitment. In addition the airframe was reported to bleed a lot of energy in it's first appearance, hopefully by the production variant those issues might be resolved.

I wonder why was the j20 kept out of the equation that wold pretty much fit the wishlist of most pakistani enthusiasts, Twin Engine, bigger frame, more ordinance, better range ability to hit every corner of India.

lastly, Cost of the project:

With the proposed platforms, the plan I am assuming is to add another platform to existing platform, so where the JF17 was brought in to be used as a consolidated platform for replacing Mirage III/V, A5, F7 and F7PG, this will be adding another platform to existing inventory and fundamentally changing the defense of Pakistani airspace as prime requirement to a offensive doctrine where it mandates the platforms to perform air interdiction in enemy territory, in that case the other platforms like the Jf17 and F16 (except the BLK 50+ with CFT's) are seriously short legged to support such functions. In other words you might need a multi role fighter that will have have both A/s as well as Strike configuration in a strike package. So you are looking at about 100 units of a Multi Role long range strike fighter, preferably stealth, So in my opinion the only platforms that fit the requirements are either the j20 or the T50.

Irrespective of which unit you pick, you are looking at a min of 60 mil Cap + another 25 mil PLM costs excluding the munitions package. so with 10 units inducted over next 10 years to give you a 100 units you are still looking at about 650 million cap price every year,

lets assume that the Defence budget of pakistan is around 10 Billion dollar at the time of buying these platforms
10 billion / fiscal year
Op ex allocation : 62% - 6.2 Billion
Capex Total: 3.8 Billion
Air Force Capex: 30% : 1.14 Billion Dollars

As of now, your Defence budget is 7.6 billion, Capex is 2.8 and PAF allocation is 30% 866 Million Dollars. I.E, PAF needs around 866 million for it;s current acquisitions, or atleast that is what they planned in their AOP for 2015-16.

Given your acquisitions will remain similar as of now, with a 10 billion defence budget, you will need 1.14 billion capex, with JF17 production, F16 MLU, other weapons systems, and new platform, might not suffice in that 1.14 billion mark. In other words maintaining similar allocations, to put another 650 mil in PAF capex you would need Airforce capex at 1.79 Billion, that in result puts your total cap budget at 5.97, and you Pakistan defence allocation at 15.7 Billion dollars.

As you currently stand about at 7.6 billion, you will most likely need to double your Defence budget to get where you want, at an induction rate of 10 aircrafts/year
 
Last edited:
.
fighter wing of Navy is a must specially when 80% of our exports are via sea

Fukups of the past... But it seems these issues have been rectified ... The concept of operations in tandem has been consolidated ... The joint military exercises like Azm e nau etc and the joint PAF-PA coordination in WOT are very solid steps !


But yes I agree ... PN should invest in a fighter wing... Realistically speaking they should raise 2 Sqds of JF (with PAFs help of course)... And build from there!
With CPEC & expansion of maritime territory protection of sea lanes should be a priority and all of that can't be left of PAF which itself is facing challenges.


Hi,

To protect the sea lanes---the naval strike aircraft needs to travel out at least 750-1000 miles one way to keep an eye on the sea lanes---.

I would prefer this aircraft to have CONFORMAL fuel tanks---AIR EFUELLING CAPABILITY---AND BUDDY REFFUELLING---. It should be able to carry 2--3 CM400AKG's for anti ship missions----amongst other things---.
 
.
Only option is China for heavy weight plane....
193_158785_512465.jpg
 
.
Dear what abt A2A capabilities of JH7B, though it is an upgraded platform yet I doubt it is a true multi role platform. In case of budget constraints Pak require true multi role fighter jet ideally may be allocated for deep strikes both on land and enemy naval assets without any escort of fighter jets.

Read my Post# 48 and #51 as well. First PAF have to assess and analyze for what role a twin-engine fighter is required for. There will already be a lot of Multi-roles in PAF in the likes of more capable F-16s and JF-17s. The place where our Air Power seriously lacks is the Naval Air Arm. IMO Pakistan has to set up a dedicated PNAF arm after the increase of Pakistan EEZ and more increase in parity b/w PN and IN. Multirole fighter is a jack of all trades but master of none.
So in my simple opinion we need a Naval attack role specific kind of plane with an adequate A2A capability. But primary role should be utilizing AGM/ASM missiles and A2A should be a secondary role. JF-17 or F-16s can also escort to provide Air cover in case of extremely intense enemy CAP area. Now JH-7B seems to be the most possible option. Su-35 would be the best possible option (under Pakistan case keeping in view all the geopolitical and financial situation)
 
.
Its not just the Navy what will you do about those more than a dozen IAF air bases all along indo pak border and indian radars deep inside indian territory have capabilty to track every air craft activity deep inside pakistani sir space and the fact mig29K with only internal feul has a 800+Km combat radius meaning indian CBGs will be at least 800 Km off the pakistan coast and to get them F-16s & JF-17s will have to leave behind AWACS cover and SAM protection cover and come into open seas with very less weapon load with at least couple of feul tanks so your navy also needs 'long legged twin engine fighters' besides PAF

In event of war, Ballistic missiles are more than enough to take care of IN Carrier Battle group in ranges of thousands of km.

I have already shown that PAF F-16 and JF-17 along with other support aircraft can strike IN warships in 500km area considering PN subs are hunting IN subs and are not available for taking out IN surface warships coming close to strike Pakistan.

Power balance is already not stable , we are buying these jets to make the power balance much stabler . As we can counter the SU-30s

statements coming from uncle SAM says that "8 F-16's to PAF will not change the power balance in the region".

This points towards a few things:

1. USA wants to keep India happy side by side while giving just enough weapon platforms to PAF which increases defensive capability of PAF only.

2. F-18 E/F to PAF will certainly change the power balance in the region to some extent since AESA and other F-18 related goodies will come in PAF hands.

3. If USA isnt giving AESA on F-16 to PAF then why will USA sell AESA equipped F-35 with lots of other effective weapons to PAF.

The practical option is the Panavia Tornado. The RSAF operates it. Ask for transfer of the same via some deal. @Irfan Baloch @MastanKhan
I am not trolling and apologize in advance if you think im getting personal......but mate....Tornado :) ...i laughed really hard after reading this post :)
 
.

Latest posts

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom