What twin engine Jet Fighter Suits PAF Doctrine?

[CriticalThinker02]

I really do not understand the point of having a deep strike twin engine capable fighter jet, just look the at the cost it would be required in establishing a Su-35 platform and buying 24 of them and on top of that the heavy maintenance cost the jet has, and btw are you really expecting to use these jets and taking the fight to the Indians in their air space?

Does 24 Su-35's have a chance against lets say 200 Su-27 and countless migs, also on top of that having to deal with multi-layered high altitude SAM protection that the Indians have?

How about using our precious funds to upgrade our JF-17's to F-16 block 52's level and out producing the hell out of it, and buying more high quality, high altitude SAM's and making it almost impossible for the Indians jets to have very little chance in gaining air superiority in our airspace.

It's like how Hitler wasted precious resources in producing the V2 rockets which can only be used once and was not very effective at all instead of producing heavy bombers which can be used multiple times and using those bombers to bomb the Siberian factories the Russian had.

The cost of producing one American B-29 bomber was exactly the same as producing the German V2 rocket.

Btw this is just my personal opinion, those more knowledgeable than me in this topic are welcome to provide valid arguments of why we should acquire a twin engine jet.

 

[surya kiran]

And would require the blessings of the British Govt. and @Blue Marlin, both of which are interested in selling the newer EF. IF you were to go against their wishes, it would be an issue to maintain them, without BAE's support.

I do not think Blue realises the complexities of setting up a new production line. Nor the optimistic deadline of 2022.

Look, its business. The Brits are going to phase out their planes. The RSAf is upgrading. If they sell the Tornado, there is a chance of the Typhoon later.

 

[Khafee]

define what do you meran by "weak" and what will be strong

read @MastanKhan's earlier posts, and read my amended opening post again
we already agreed that the platform itself is strong just needs updated avionics which we already have from JF-17 and J-10..
if you are still not clear then explain what you dont understand? list down your primary requirements for a strong twin engine jet. and then list down what you see weak in the J H7 which you call handicaps.. the ones that I identified were vintage avionics that can be replaced with the compatible modern avionics present newer Chinese jets. check out the cockpit of J-10 and JF-17.. are they modern enough for you?

coming back to JH7, it has weight capacity more range speed over 1.7mac) has the room to accomodate the J-10 or JF-17 radar.. where is it lacking for you

Sir, if an order were to be placed by PAF, the Chinese would upgrade the avionics as well as the engines ASAP, might even throw in TVC as a bonus.

The only thing "I found lacking" was it's maneuverability / agility in a WVR combat. The answer to that is a High Off Bore sight missile system.

My personal opinion, for the price, there is no better option out there.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The only thing "I found lacking" was it's maneuverability / agility in a WVR combat. The answer to that is a High Off Bore sight missile system.

My personal opinion, for the price, there is no better option out there.

interesting, for some reason , agility was not my primary requirement for this jet. and yes I agree an agile WVR can do all the dance for the jet

 

[MastanKhan]

JH-7B - Handicaps:

There might be more, but what pops up immediately is the fact that it is a poor fighter in terms of WVR. So how do we get around it?

@MastanKhan ?

Hi,

Off course it is not----.

So---here is what I have---.

I know the enemy is going to kill me---if I do not have the right aircraft---it is going to kill me in my backyard---in front of my loved and dear ones----and it is going to pummel me and humiliate me like never before----if I maintain the status quo.

But---if I change the equation---where I can now reach into his SECURE & SACRED GROUNDS and smash his ego in front of the home crowd---the chinks in the armor---can sometimes play havoc with the psyche of the enemy.

This was the emotional and strategic part---if I have to die---then why not on the side of the enemy border---.

That is a very tough question---how does russia protect its bombers---or how does the U S or the UK does that----. Does that stop them from acquiring bombers to reach out into the enemy heartland---knwoing very well that they will be taken out.

What about the F111--or the Tornado---or the Jaguar----they are worst thanthe JH7B's----.

The bottomline here is---that if Pakistan air force cannot target mumbai and surrounding areas----then it is better to sign up and make peace with india.

The primary goal needs to be to spread out the enemy's fire power---by staying inside and being in a defensive posture means that Paf has decided that they are going to bend over and let Iaf do what ever it pleases to.

As for the aircraft---Bad decisions and Time has been the worst enemy of pakistan air force---and they keep on making them over and over---again and again---.

They need to be confronted on the TV----the paf managers need to be smacked around---the real face of the paf needs to be shown to pakistan----and it is not a very pretty face---.

I will tell you---if I go on a 2 hour TV talk show in pakistan---pakistan air force will not find a place to hide their faces---.

As I stated---bad decisions----and poor timing----Paf has cut its own feet over the period of the last 30 years----put deafet on a platter and handed it over to the enemy.

Basically---the position that it finds it self in----IT DOES NOT HAVE A POTENT AIRCRAFT TO PROCURE and field against the enemy----. There is nothing out there of substance available to it----.

In an ever changing environment---you have to make decisions when PEOPLE LIKE YOU-----when there is a positive image about you----. The doors start closing when people start to dislike you.

The ARROGANT PAKISTANI has just learnt---that even if you have the money---when they don't want to---they will not sell to you---but this has not registered yet.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

you read my post, but did not mention the typhoon as it is extreamly expensive. but a mixture of new and second hand typhoons would be a very good option this would also pave the way for our government to procure the tranch 3b typhoon which pakistan can procure

Hi,
Thought what you are saying is a good solution for having EFT's but this would increase the maintenance costs that would seriously limit PAF future procurement plans of 5th Gen fighter aircraft.

At the moment TFX is still 15yrs ahead so the aircraft and engine PAF would be selecting from the west would be a US made one. F-16's brand new Blk52's or higher are the most ideal ones with the option of IFR.

There are F-15 available also but the issue is the operational cost, if some how the defence budget is raised then for the interim period till a 5th gen option is available PAF would love to have 1-2 sqd of F15's along with the F-16s. Unfortunately this might not materialise for some time in the future.

On the other hand PAF knows that it can always depend on China hence there are options available from a more nutral sour

 

[Khafee]

interesting, for some reason , agility was not my primary requirement for this jet. and yes I agree an agile WVR can do all the dance for the jet

Well that is understandable. It's the last thing on the agenda. Nonetheless, having it, or an alternative is a plus.

Btw we can BLAME @MastanKhan in to turning us into JH7B believers

 

[MastanKhan]

define what do you meran by "weak" and what will be strong

read @MastanKhan's earlier posts, and read my amended opening post again
we already agreed that the platform itself is strong just needs updated avionics which we already have from JF-17 and J-10..
if you are still not clear then explain what you dont understand? list down your primary requirements for a strong twin engine jet. and then list down what you see weak in the J H7 which you call handicaps.. the ones that I identified were vintage avionics that can be replaced with the compatible modern avionics present newer Chinese jets. check out the cockpit of J-10 and JF-17.. are they modern enough for you?

coming back to JH7, it has weight capacity more range speed over 1.7mac) has the room to accomodate the J-10 or JF-17 radar.. where is it lacking for you

Hi,

Actually---it can accomodate the J11/15/16 aesa radar---possibly a 1600 T/R module aesa radar----plus it can carry massive jammers and all the electronic warfare suit needed to fly in as a growler type aircraft---provide fuel thru buddy refuelling and be the bomb truck.

The beauty is in the eyes of the beholden----most of the times---the prettiest girl is not the best girl----because of the baggage that it is----most of the ordinary girls are the best partners in life---because they go out of their way to make thing better.

A weapon is nothing by itself----it is a frame of mind as to how in can be used and operated----it is a matter of belief in understanding its limitations and utilizing its strengths---.

The operator needs to learn and understand the strengths and manipulate them to overcome the weaknesses of a system---.

And as @Khafee mentioned---you have off bore sight missiles---and other complimentary systems in place---use what you have available to the best of its capabilities and abilities and give your 110%---and that is all one can ask---.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Why? Why? Why? That is the question that comes to my mind. Nobody here has adequately explained why PAF needs a twin engined fighter other than just to show off on defence days.

To look at that we need to look at the wider war scenario. Let us face it. By war it is India your talking about. In any war protracted war with India Pakistan would be defeated - India has such large convential superiority this is not even worth debating about.


The strategic defence relies on Pak nuclear deterance. Therefore any war that extends beyond certain timeframe will by definition bring in nuclear weapons and missiles. Pakistan should only be looking at gaining tactical advantage buying it time so that great powers can get involved and sanity prevails as we edge toward nuclear war.

Within this tactical war - Kargil being cxlasic example of this F-16s are sufficient. I cannot for life of me figure out why you guy's are talking about long rang twinned engine fighters. Are you guy's planning on beating India in protracted conventional slugfest?

Because trust me Pakistan would lose despite having few more twin jets. Strategic defence lies in the nuclear option. What the hell was point of having nuclear weapons?

Time to reduce army size to smaller, nimble fighting force that can prevail at tactical level and should the threat develop strategic dimention then fall back on nuclear deterance. That's my two cents on this.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Why? Why? Why? That is the question that comes to my mind. Nobody here has adequately explained why PAF needs a twin engined fighter other than just to show off on defence days.

To look at that we need to look at the wider war scenario. Let us face it. By war it is India your talking about. In any war protracted war with India Pakistan would be defeated - India has such large convential superiority this is not even worh debating about.


The strategic defence relies on Pak nuclear deterance. Therefore any war that extends beyond certain timeframe will by definition bring in nuclear weapons and missiles. Pakistan should only be loking at gaining tactical advantage buying it time so that great powers can get involved and sanity prevails as we edge toward nuclear war.

Within this tactical war - Kargil being cxlasic example of this F016s are sufficient. I cannot for life of me figure out why you guy's are talking about long rang twinned engine fighters. Are you guy's on beating India in protracted conventioal slugfest?

Because trust me Pakistan would lose despite having few more twin jets. Strategic defence lies in the nuclear option. What the hell was point of having nuclear weapons?

Time to reduce army size to smaller, nimble fighting force that can prevail at tactical level and should the threat develop strategic dimention then fall back on nuclear deterance.

agreed

Well that is understandable. It's the last thing on the agenda. Nonetheless, having it, or an alternative is a plus.

Btw we can BLAME @MastanKhan in to turning us into JH7B believers

he may be on commision!!

does somone have the ability to ask somone in the pakistan air force who can answer the question?

 

[rockstar08]

Sir, PAF is involved in the development of the J-31 from day one, just like the JF-17. They KNOW what they are getting themselves into. IF they decide to procure it tomorrow, it won't be because the Chinese say it's a 5th Gen aircraft, it's because the PAF knows it fits the bill.

Secondly, like @DESERT FIGHTER said, PAF should also look at the Turkish program. IMO the Korean one as well. In both these programs PAF's involvement could be technical as well as financial. Finance coming from that popular Pakistani Bank, "Silk Bank" SILKBANK

bro, still j-31 is still almost a decade ahead ..
and as i mentioned in my post , just assume what if J-31 is 8-10 years ahead and we retire our mirage and F-7's post 2020 .. than technically our Air force is operating only 2 kind of Air crafts ,JF and F-16's .. we need a new platform ..
and this is new news for me that PAF is involved in R&D of J-31 ...
lets tag some Chinese members and see what they have to say ..
@Chinese-Dragon @Beast brothers, do you have any news that PAF is involved in R&D of J-31 ?

Hi,

We already are a weak air force----. Paf planners have chopped the legs out from under the pakistani positive / progressive stance.

This agency does not have the ballz to think with a straight head----. There are one too many THINKERS in the paf---.

Untill and unless PAF is NOT OPENLY BASHED on the public forum---that is on the Pakistan TV talk shows---it won't change---.

Until and unless the public does not hear the SHENANIGANS of the Paf on tv channels----this force will stay incompetent in its actions.

Instead of acquiring the right aircraft in a timely manner---the Paf GAMBLED on the future outcome of the relationship of the two countries---and the lack of procurement of a proper weapon--put pakistan in a very weak position.

but they always say "mulk ka difaa kerne ke liye har dam tayar hain "

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

khafee lad. lets look at this again shall we.....

1. yes the f15 is not going to pakistan thats final.

2. the f18 has a moderate chance, here. boeng is willing to move the f18 production line to india if if orders/commits to ordering 200 jets. india is not going to order 200 jets and the chances of them ordering a lot of them is slim, very slim. and the chances of ordering them in low numbers, or about 2 squadrons is nill. the superhornet is powered by the gef414 engine. also the t-50 trainer which paf is interested in is also powered by the same engine. also the lca-mk2 has the same engine too. but the f18 is near enought the same spec as the f16. in the past when the usaf wanted a multirolefighter the f16 by lockheed and the f18 from mcdonald doughlas (now boeing) were compeating for the same tender. lockheed won. and mcdonald doughlas was sold to boeing and when the navy wanted a carrier based jet the f18 was chosen as it similar in spec to the f16 and was twin engined.

3. the typhoon.... this jets is perfect for pakistan it will run rings around the mig29 and the su-30mki. even when the iaf came here our typhoons were tamed so that its true preformance was never shown. yet it did a very good job. the typhoon consortium is looking for countrie in the niddel east and east asia for orders. pakistan can very easily ored the jets as the british government would not have a problem as it would maintain thousands of jobs here.

4. the rafale wont be sold to pakistan as india is buying them and pakistan buying them after is strange yet hypothetical. but hypothetically if both countryis were to buy them it would be a test of who is the best pliot.

5. su35/mig-35- lets start with the su-35. its near enough the same spec as the mki. so why spend billions on a jet that slightly better than the mki and in low numbers. russia is know to buting good products but they have t maintained more. more than its western counterpart. so a jets known to be a hangar queen and one on low numbers is a shooting yourself in the foot. besides russia will refuse to sell the jet as india is providing more business to russia than pakistan.
one can argue this by saying the mil-35 is in india and pakistan is getting them too but thats a low grade weapon and wont play a big part in a waras compart to a fighter jet.

6. the jh-7b is a good jet. one that pakistan cab buy and at a very good price and a jet. but i dont think its avaliable for export. i have not seen the jh-7 at any chinese stands as" export ready" as compard the the j-31, jf-17, j10 l15 and the jl9 which can be exported. mind you pakistan can just ask and the chances of china saying yes is almost gurantied.

now take everything that i said and throw it away.

i made it clear that pakistan is not interested in a twin engined 4th gen fighter. why? it's not looking for a twin engined fighter? simply because it does not need one. pakistan is looking for a 5th gen fighter which will be ordered by about 2019 and begin to recieve them in about 2022 so in the space of 6 years you dont think pakistan needs a new platform? no, the jf17 program will run up untill 2020 where the line would be changed to produce 5th gen fighters or an extention to build a new line. as export orders may contribute to keep the jf-17 line open beyond 2020. and also running in parralel woube be the f16 procurment program where pakistan would buy new and used f16's is sort of similar to the rose program with th mirages where old jet were brought and upgraded.

also it not only the fighters that need to be replaced. the c30's only have another 15 years left in them as the new upgrade will ad 15years of life to them and the t-37's need to be replaced. the most likely contender it the tai hurkus. which would explain why tuaf donated the t-37 to pakistan to up keep the fleet untill the hurkus is ready.

the lead in fighter trainer (lift the t-50 or the l15) even with that im not sue what they will pick but i think the l15 or the jl-9 as it cheaper than the t-50 and theres no export restrictions as with the t50 there is as the usa can block t-50 sales as lockheed contributed to it development. which led to the t-50 being blocked form being sold to uzbekistan due to the usa vetoing the sale.

interesting times are comming for paf
@Irfan Baloch @Manticore
@Khafee

Hi,
It is known that the transport fleet as well as a new trainer jet is required by PAF to bring it up to par with the future requirements. Recently there was a video posted by one of the members of PDF showing PAF pilots training on the TAI HURKUS. Now it is unclear if this aircraft is procured for PAF or it is just pilots being trained on a new platform to acquire more experience. There are some interesting facts poster by @Zarvan regarding PAF interest of acquiring some missile systems from Turkey.

The T-50 though is made with the collaboration of US still it is not being procured by the US, so technically it can be available to PAF. JL-9 might be a cheaper and easier solution but this would be judged when it is fully developed.

Why? Why? Why? That is the question that comes to my mind. Nobody here has adequately explained why PAF needs a twin engined fighter other than just to show off on defence days.

This question can be looked upon in the current threat levels and the possible future international war's that Pakistan might be dragged into.

Afghanistan is a problematic area now and would remain the same for some more years till a proper Air force a formed..

IRAQ, Syria and Yemen security would eventually fall upon Pakistan after the West leaves same as the case was with Afghanistan and Iraq.

Arab League's peace keeping missions along with UN would also increase.

On the Domestic front the Shipping lanes and the TAPI pipeline would require protection.

 

[rockstar08]

Btw we can BLAME @MastanKhan in to turning us into JH7B believers

Mastan Khan has shares in JH7B

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Why? Why? Why? That is the question that comes to my mind. Nobody here has adequately explained why PAF needs a twin engined fighter other than just to show off on defence days.

.

the assumption of the thread is that the readers who are smart enough to pick up this thread in an air force section of Pakistan defence forum have the basic understanding of limitations of light, medium, heavy jet fighters from single to twin engine fighters. and its definitely beyond showing off on republic day.
the hint was in the subject PAF doctrine.which is has been aggressive in nature and the subject here is twin engine and readers that accept that premise are invited to contribute. those that don't

well they got countless threads out there to state otherwise

 

[Blue Marlin]

Hi,
It is known that the transport fleet as well as a new trainer jet is required by PAF to bring it up to par with the future requirements. Recently there was a video posted by one of the members of PDF showing PAF pilots training on the TAI HURKUS. Now it is unclear if this aircraft is procured for PAF or it is just pilots being trained on a new platform to acquire more experience. There are some interesting facts poster by @Zarvan regarding PAF interest of acquiring some missile systems from Turkey.

The T-50 though is made with the collaboration of US still it is not being procured by the US, so technically it can be available to PAF. JL-9 might be a cheaper and easier solution but this would be judged when it is fully developed.


This question can be looked upon in the current threat levels and the possible future international war's that Pakistan might be dragged into.

Afghanistan is a problematic area now and would remain the same for some more years till a proper Air force a formed..

IRAQ, Syria and Yemen security would eventually fall upon Pakistan after the West leaves same as the case was with Afghanistan and Iraq.

Arab League's peace keeping missions along with UN would also increase.

On the Domestic front the Shipping lanes and the TAPI pipeline would require protection.

hi
i am quiet confidant in saying pakistan will get the hurkus. tuaf giving the t-37's away just re-enforced my theory. the jl-9 is nearly compleat in testing and has begun mass production