What twin engine Jet Fighter Suits PAF Doctrine?

[rockstarIN]

Need stealth and slightly longer range? You might be able to hit 2 birds with 1 stone with the under development j31. The question is how much range does it have and development time. If you can get a stealth with greater range than the f16 then it should be pursued. Instead of having 2sq of say su35 and 2sq of 5th gen why dont have 4sq of 5th gen with a common rd93?

In the future it will not only be a battle of fighters with longer loiter time but the generation gap caused by introduction of 5th gen in south east asia will be be a morale booster over the enemy. Does paf have the money to operate 4 different type of platforms? Jft, f16s, double engine, fifth gen?

I think paf should ditch a 4+ gen double engine fighter in favour of fifth gen fighter with longer range than the f16. If this target cant be met in the next decade, then we will be in a doldrum and will have to look for alternatives.

In that case it will be toss between typoon [saudia operates it] and su series [china operates it]. What would be ideal if fifth gen doesnt get inducted in the next decade would be a fighter which is operated by friendly countries from where we can get spares/training

Waiting for J-31 is kind of taking too much risk for PAF.

It is a 5th gen plane, except F-22, nothing really came out. What if that one does not fit the requirements of Pakistan? You will lose valuable 7-8 years to buy and add jets. IAF can afford it in case of Pak sector scenerio, waiting for MMRCA etc. It is not wise to wait for a plane which is 8-10 years away.

The best possible option is F-16 only, provided IAF numerical advantage as well as SAM cover. And if you have no plans to go against any American Carrier in the future..!!

If you really want twin engines jets, the PAF doctrine should change from defensive set up and at least need 5-6 twin engine fighters sqn to have an effect in the war. Provided with the huge cost associated with it, better to go for JH7B adding new Chinese weapons.

My vote goes to JH7B

 

[halupridol]

why not collaborate with Saudis in exchange of 4-5 sqd. of typhoon,,,its possible

 

[rockstarIN]

while Indian air defense is better than Pakistan's it is not strong. Five S-400 batteries are not enough to protect the entire airspace

No need to cover the entire air space. one Akash battery can cover 2000 sqkm.

Add more old and new stuff to that on layer basis (Barak8, old pachora, etc)

 

[Signalian]

Sarge---that is the most important question. Combat is all about geography---.
You need to take the war to the enemy's soft under belly---a place where it hurts the most---where you get most bang for the buck.

There are two types of geographical airspace, surface and sea.
There are two types of missions, A2G and A2A. Next is the weaponry used.

Surface is the Indian land territory. Any aircraft except than 5th gen has very low chances of making it hundreds of km inside indian air space, dropping payload and returning safely. Especially J-11, SU35 or JH-7B all have RCS that can be detected through IAF AWACS in the air or through ground radars. Even then these aircraft will use stand-off chinese or russian weapons, probably 100km range weapons.
So PAF gets a new J-11 or SU35 or JH-7B. Trains pilots for years on it and then sends it probably 200+km inside IAF airspace (20-30 mins mission minimum) for strike and this mission has low success rate which means more than 50% chances of loss of aircraft and pilots. PAF will not risk aircrafts and pilots like this.
why would PAF put its aircraft and pilots at risk when Cruise missiles can strike 100's of km in Indian territory without above mentioned losses.
if at all, an aircraft has to be sent for strike, a 5th gen may have more chances of survival and even then the way points need to be carefully planned to avoid radar coverage areas, which means more fuel requirement and range for deviations. Problem with that is lesser payload, probably 2 A2A and 1-2 stand off weapons. with IAF AWACs in the air, the difficulty level increases. External payload(fuel or weapons) nullifies stealth.

PAF eventually has to go for 5th gen aircraft, so just to strike 100+km in India, the 4,4.5 gen choices dont make sense.

Range for air superiority over Indian land territory is not possible. Inside own territory, yes, constant CAP through refuellers using JF17's and F-16's.

Will come to A2A and A2G naval geographical space later tonight.

 

[Windjammer]

Albeit with the newly revealed drop tanks and CFTs, even our F-16s can fly circles around India, however, for a small hard hitting force, until the J-31 becomes available, the F/A 18 would be the ideal platform. it's compact, agile, good maritime and multi role strike capability and above all it's battle tested and proven.

 

[nana41]

for deep strikes and longer loitering of course both just increase the reach and flight time of your jet both of which give you advantage in the time of need. hope you know how

As long as china doesn't come up with reliable WS-10 or WS-13 Engine,SHE has nothing for export.U S on the other hand will never agree with the sale of F-18.The cheapest and easiest solution for a twin engined machine would be a scaled up version of jf-17 using RD-93 or Euro Jet engine in collaboration with Turkey.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

while Indian air defense is better than Pakistan's it is not strong. Five S-400 batteries are not enough to protect the entire airspace

this argument is out of scope of thread anyway but thanks for pointing this out. many nations have very complex and highly advanced air defence systems but this hasn't made their enemies to retire their airforces and ground their aircrafts. they accept the challenge and work on contingencies to come with a solution.

You rightly mentioned the word 'doctrine', but paid scant regard to it! So what is PAF's doctrine against its adversaries especially India? Only with knowledhe of the doctrine, can you equip the airforce with weapon platforms which comform to that doctrine. So just making a list of single or twin jets is just kite flying.

PAF Doctrine

The PAF has, since inception, espoused a doctrine of fighting outnumbered and, in order to overcome its numerical inferiority against India, made its doctrine one of ‘Offensive Defence’. In Offensive Defence, the PAF is likely to try its utmost to carry the war deep into Indian territory while maintaining its traditional emphasis on Air Defence.

Considering the above, the J-11D would provide deep strike capability, greater range and air combat capabilities to PAF, conforming to PAF's doctrine. This variant with fixed electronically scanned array radar, IRST, will have the capability to fire heavier imaging/infrared (IIR) air-to-air missiles. The airframe makes greater use of composite materials, especially in the engine intakes for lower radar observability. Unconfirmed reports claim it has a fly-by-wire control system, glass cockpit, improved EW systems, and an improved version of the WS-10A engine.

Induction of up to 50 J-11D will complement the JF-17, F-16 MLU and F-16 Block 52 fleet. The deployment of IL-78 Airborne Aerial Refuelling (AAR) platform will enhance range and strike radius of both JF-17 and J-11D aircraft.

Conclusion

The J-11D twin engine fighter is the way to go!

hi, thanks for your post.
the idea behind the thread is that the reader/ commentator is already aware of the PAF doctrine which has been discussed enough times and referenced in this section over the years so the thread was created with that in mind so that we are not bogged down right at the start into something which is not even the subject matter of the thread. presumption being
known Indian air defences, known PAF doctrine and realistic (in terms of forum enthusiasts) alternatives.
.
you gave your view and I am checking the thread. ignoring all the irrelevant and non-contributing posts I will nudge the discussion back once the thread degrades into a typical rant fest in few pages and summarize what choices are coming up.

why not collaborate with Saudis in exchange of 4-5 sqd. of typhoon,,,its possible

good point but this suggestion has a potential to move our discussion to unnecessary Middle eastern bitch fight. and also the option is only possible if we expend our military in their wars on Yemen and Syria etc. lets stay out of it

 

[Muhammad Omar]

J-31 not coming till 2024
F-18 USA already offered them to India
J-11 not for Exports
Rafales India is already getting them
Euro Fighter to damn Expensive


that left with Su-35 if Russia agrees to sell it

 

[Paksanity]

I do not agree with so and so country will not sell so and so aircraft with the exception of F-22 and perhaps J-20 and PakFa. It is also outside the scope of this thread which primarily wants to deliberate on which aircraft suits PAF requirements. And trust me EFT, Rafale, F-35, Su-35, F-15, F-18 and J-31 are up for sale if we can meet the financial and 'other' price.

My pick is F-15 and preferably SE variant. It is proven fighter with requisite range and payload. Remember the primary task is to provide air cover to Navy which is deep inside Arabian sea. Submarines will lead the charge against Indian ships but P-8I needs to be taken care of which again will protected by MiG-29K, Tejas and possibly Rafale-M. F-15 is king of Air battles and fully capable of negotiating these threats. Once air is clear of ASW aircrafts, there is no stopping Pak Navy submarines to sink Indian ships.

As another benefit, F-15 can be used in continental conflict and for deep strike as well. Given the numbers of F-15s that fly today, spares and used copies will remain available. A mix of fifth gen (ideal is F-35) with F-15 is a lethal combination and takes care of lot of stuff.

Second best alternate is F-18 and third is Su-35.

For those who are wondering, the base assumption is PAF is willing to introduce a twin engine type hence the money. As I see it, twin engine aircraft today must be part of long term procurement plan of fifth gen aircraft so as the two work together as a team. That's my take.

 

[PakEye]

JF-17 thunder Block-V will be twin engine
( my wish)

 

[Signalian]

Coming to use of twin engined Long range aircraft like SU35 or J-11 for naval ops.

Indian naval asset in range of 500km from karachi can be countered with JF-17 armed with CM-400. If its a frigate or destroyer as target in the area, JF-17 can be armed with 2 X PL-9, 1 X CM-400 and any other anti ship missile or drop fuel tanks. JF-17's can take-off with half fuel capacity in internal tank to compensate for large payload take-off. get refuelled in mid air, vector southwards 300-350 km towards the sea. fire the stand off CM-400 between 180-250 km range and head back. 2-4 JF-17 formation firing CM-400 should atleast damage the frigate if not sink it, hampering it to continue further ops.
JF-17 can be armed with 2 X SD-10 if Mig-29's are providing air cover to the IN frigate and comes to engage JF-17 but still JF-17 will fire at the frigate from a stand off distance.

If its an IN aircraft carrier group at any distance (500-5000km), better to use a ballistic missile to sink it or deter it from coming closer to Pakistan than to face 8-10 ready to fly Mig-29's plus more taking off within minutes to protect the aircraft carrier and lots of SAM armed Frigates/ Destroyers protecting it.

I am not sure if PAF F-16's are HARPOON integrated.
I dont think EXOCET can be fired from F-16.
But HARPOON equipped F-16 with CFT (increased range by 20-40%) will be a potent threat to IN ships. Add 300 gallons drop fuel tanks and range increases more. HARPOON has a range of 100+ km so its a stand off weapon also. F-16 can carry 2 X Harpoon.

PN P-3C can also use HARPOON. P-3C has a large range and loiter time. In any anti-ship mission, F-16's can escort it for strike.
I think PN Atlantique (only 2 in use) can also carry HARPOON and it also has good range and loiter time.

Basically, PAF and PN already has aircraft and weapons to counter IN ships. Now a 5th gen aircraft is required for both, preferable a STOVL version of J-31 for PN.

 

[Bharat_Bhakt]

Coming to use of twin engined Long range aircraft like SU35 or J-11 for naval ops.

Indian naval asset in range of 500km from karachi can be countered with JF-17 armed with CM-400. If its a frigate or destroyer as target in the area, JF-17 can be armed with 2 X PL-9, 1 X CM-400 and any other anti ship missile or drop fuel tanks. JF-17's can take-off with half fuel capacity in internal tank to compensate for large payload take-off. get refuelled in mid air, vector southwards 300-350 km towards the sea. fire the stand off CM-400 between 180-250 km range and head back. 2-4 JF-17 formation firing CM-400 should atleast damage the frigate if not sink it, hampering it to continue further ops.
JF-17 can be armed with 2 X SD-10 if Mig-29's are providing air cover to the IN frigate and comes to engage JF-17 but still JF-17 will fire at the frigate from a stand off distance.

If its an IN aircraft carrier group at any distance (500-5000km), better to use a ballistic missile to sink it or deter it from coming closer to Pakistan than to face 8-10 ready to fly Mig-29's plus more taking off within minutes to protect the aircraft carrier and lots of SAM armed Frigates/ Destroyers protecting it.

I am not sure if PAF F-16's are HARPOON integrated.
I dont think EXOCET can be fired from F-16.
But HARPOON equipped F-16 with CFT (increased range by 20-40%) will be a potent threat to IN ships. Add 300 gallons drop fuel tanks and range increases more. HARPOON has a range of 100+ km so its a stand off weapon also. F-16 can carry 2 X Harpoon.

PN P-3C can also use HARPOON. P-3C has a large range and loiter time. In any anti-ship mission, F-16's can escort it for strike.
I think PN Atlantique (only 2 in use) can also carry HARPOON and it also has good range and loiter time.

Basically, PAF and PN already has aircraft and weapons to counter IN ships. Now a 5th gen aircraft is required for both, preferable a STOVL version of J-31 for PN.

Its not just the Navy what will you do about those more than a dozen IAF air bases all along indo pak border and indian radars deep inside indian territory have capabilty to track every air craft activity deep inside pakistani sir space and the fact mig29K with only internal feul has a 800+Km combat radius meaning indian CBGs will be at least 800 Km off the pakistan coast and to get them F-16s & JF-17s will have to leave behind AWACS cover and SAM protection cover and come into open seas with very less weapon load with at least couple of feul tanks so your navy also needs 'long legged twin engine fighters' besides PAF

 

[The Eagle]

Let the F-16s be added.

Work and spend on JFT as its going well and take it to the maximum level of up-gradation even changes in airframe or any other areas are needed. I am in favour to put maximum into JFT program.

So get more F-16s, grow JFT and lets participate into 5th generation available at the moment (J-31 or TFX) so will save time and money being spent on another additional 4.5 platform just to show that we have it though not needed that much.

As an stop-gape, new F-16s and building upgraded thunders are all what need to be done for the moment and saves money for 5th generation as well. Just my opinion.

Pakistan Zindabad

 

[Quwa]

MiG-35.

1. Same engine as JF-17, so PAF will have some logistical and maintenance familiarity off the bat.

2. Underdog in terms of hype, so we wouldn't get as much attention buying it compared to Su-35.

3. Russia is willing to sell it for a relatively affordable price, e.g. Egypt is getting theirs for $50mn a unit.

4. PAF can order a stripped down version involving the airframe, engine and AESA radar, source the onboard electronics and munitions from elsewhere.

5. It's a medium fighter, but it fits the twin engine bill (for maritime operations) quite well, it's a good supplement for JF-17 (lightweight).

 

[Nefarious]

I think Pakistan should persue JF-17 block 3 and also new/used F-16's and then next jet should be 5th gen.

During the above, go for J-31 - with the upgraded engine, Has the potential to be another success like JF-17.

Sanction proof, plenty of supplies whenever needed and make it in Pakistan. Will take time and effort just like JF-17 did but given the commitment it can pay off very well.

Oh and no seeking "approval" from anyone . Win - win.