What twin engine Jet Fighter Suits PAF Doctrine?

[Zarvan]

Actually , the time for J11d is gone , that's the only reason why , we are not looking into it ?
Our best option with China is of , j-31 & we are moving on it , but it will be for 15 years later ?
For now , SU-35 are the best given option to us , as they are 4.5++ means they can be upgraded nearly to 5th generation & can serve at least 30 years to come , giving us the biggest reach , the situation in our region is getting worse ?


Actually , its a night mare many Indians have , that Pakistan will get its hands on , the SU family any how ?
Hope you have heard depty forighen minster of Russia s famous statement just about a month ago , that Russia is ready to make deal for SU-35S & then whole Indian media & its govt went bonker ?lolzz
So be ready , for your worst night mare ?

Time for J-11 D is still there J-31 will take lot of time we need J-11 D than we have to go for J-31

 

[Blue Marlin]

Russia won't stop the sale yes they may offer SU-35 numbers would be on us to decide

and how do you know, its your word against russain officails

Actually , its a night mare many Indians have , that Pakistan will get its hands on , the SU family any how ?
Hope you have heard depty forighen minster of Russia s famous statement just about a month ago , that Russia is ready to make deal for SU-35S & then whole Indian media & its govt went bonker ?lolzz
So be ready , for your worst night mare ?

thats an old russain tatic to push the india to go for a specailied su35,which will be to indian standards. they even called it the su35-mki. but they wanted western kit and went for the rafale

 

[Maarkhoor]

went for the rafale

And where is the Rafale
More on topic back in 80s US offer Pakistan F-18 as a first choice but Pakistan opted for single engine fighter over maintenance cost but know we need twin engine fighter we should re-consider this old option.

 

[Blue Marlin]

And where is the Rafale
More on topic back in 80s US offer Pakistan F-18 as a first choice but Pakistan opted for single engine fighter over maintenance cost but know we need twin engine fighter we should re-consider this old option.

yes i now they were offered the f18 back in ther early/mid 2000. it was bivous the f16 was the preferd choice as they had known the jet since the 80's apparantly. a draft contractfor 36 rafales will be ready for signing on the 25th of this month

 

[Maarkhoor]

yes i now they were offered the f18 back in ther early/mid 2000. it was bivous the f16 was the preferd choice as they had known the jet since the 80's apparantly. a draft contractfor 36 rafales will be ready for signing on the 25th of this month

Will be very unfortunate (salao) word for Indian Rafale deal (and for many other defense related things). Will see when that bird fly in Indian sky on Indian conditions.

 

[MastanKhan]

No no Mastan Bhai, I genuinely raised the question hear taking only IAF into considering and forgetting the MIG 29 k which would be both carrier based and land based. So any intrusion from Arabian sea is going to be little difficult .....
So again the question is for what role exactly does PAF need twin jet ?
To check IN in Arabian sea?
To strike deep in side

Hi,

Yesterday at 12:42 PM#160

I explained it over here----. It is very simple----enemy has an open flank with minimal protection---. It knows there is no threat to it---. So---what does it do----keep a minimal number of aircraft in the arena----the rest in punjab and rajasthan and kashmir----.

But if there is an able and capable strike force----it will take the frontline fighters out from that region and be deployed at the flank----. The major cities on the coastline have a much higher value.

If in the current scenario---2-3 sqdrn's are moved from one spot to the other----that releases the pressure from on side.

Secondly----just because there is an aircraft carrier---does not mean that you can fly out and unlimited number of aircraft against an incoming strike---possibly 3--4 aircraft---.

Thirdly---if it can fly---if it has the legs----then it can reach its destination because of the vastness of the enemy flank----.

The larger the area that the enemy has to cover to protect its assets----the more resources it has to divert from its position of strength---.

The major cities down the coastline and surrounding areas have extremely very very high value targets that have never faced the threat of war in decades----.

As Karachi---Lahore--Multan---be destroyed---so must be Mumbai---Poona---Ahmedabad and other cities must feel the heat and fires of the war.

problem is PAF managers only think their role as about dog fights in bode ring areas with enemy , or bombing the advancing troops ?
they never planned for a unified 3 way air attack on them ?
like NATO+IAF joining hands for taking out our military installations , & jamming our machinized divisions coming out against advancing enemy troops from eastern & western sides constantly ?
Then NATO coming up against our nuclear & long range missile , our so called super F16s stationed sites ?

All what they have is our missile capability to strike back with our tactical nuclear devices mounted on the heads ?
it shows , who is behind this strategy our army or airforce ?


We need to bring the decesion making power to PAF , with its own choices &it's own plans ?
I don't think , it will be just IAF we will be facing in the future ?
I think still our military , is not accepting the reality , that they can be attacked jointly by NATO+INDIA ?
they are still sleeping even after OBL happened to them , which was off couse a joint action .


SU-35 is superior to most of the Indian airforce inventory & it can be upgraded , further so , we need to check in , from each side of Indian military strategy, be it land or sea based , with air craft carriers India has a lot longer range & reach against us ?
& to check that in minutes you need a twin.engine fighter , bomber , striker aircraft fighter ?


nice war gaming sir ,
but what if are up against joint NATO+INDIA equation ?
how would you will draw your attack &.defence map ?

Hi,

The bottomline is---that under the current scenario---the war is fought against SET PIECES----and in this case the one with the superior air force will dominate----.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Hi,

Yesterday at 12:42 PM#160

I explained it over here----. It is very simple----enemy has an open flank with minimal protection---. It knows there is no threat to it---. So---what does it do----keep a minimal number of aircraft in the arena----the rest in punjab and rajasthan and kashmir----.

But if there is an able and capable strike force----it will take the frontline fighters out from that region and be deployed at the flank----. The major cities on the coastline have a much higher value.

If in the current scenario---2-3 sqdrn's are moved from one spot to the other----that releases the pressure from on side.

Secondly----just because there is an aircraft carrier---does not mean that you can fly out and unlimited number of aircraft against an incoming strike---possibly 3--4 aircraft---.

Thirdly---if it can fly---if it has the legs----then it can reach its destination because of the vastness of the enemy flank----.

The larger the area that the enemy has to cover to protect its assets----the more resources it has to divert from its position of strength---.

The major cities down the coastline and surrounding areas have extremely very very high value targets that have never faced the threat of war in decades----.

As Karachi---Lahore--Multan---be destroyed---so must be Mumbai---Poona---Ahmedabad and other cities must feel the heat and fires of the war.

@MastanKhan; the underlined part of your post sketches out a very nice scenario, unfortunately it is (and will remain) largely within the realm of fantasy!
The explanation of the italicized part is simple. The areas that you wish to be subjected to "heat and fires of war" can be accessed by aircraft; only by two ways. Either directly over land, or by circuitous tactical routing over sea. The first is as hard as can be, considering IAF bases and AAD en route.
The second option is also a non sequitur; PAF aircraft flying from Karachi/Mauripur or Sindh will paint on LRTR Radars almost as soon as they take off, and will be tracked accordingly. Not for nothing that, IAF bases in SWAC right upto Pune have heavy concentrations of fighters right upto the redoubtable Flankers as well as dedicated Jags for Maritime Strike. This area already has heavy layers of both sensors and SAMs as well, where do you think that the earlier S-300s came? I am not even adding IAF's AEWACs to the mix.

Which aircraft twin-engine or 4-engine will make it through? Unless you consider the Chinese H-6; flying KHI-Colombo to attack??? But that will be even more of a 'turkey-shoot"......

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan; the underlined part of your post sketches out a very nice scenario, unfortunately it is (and will remain) largely within the realm of fantasy!
The explanation of the italicized part is simple. The areas that you wish to be subjected to "heat and fires of war" can be accessed by aircraft; only by two ways. Either directly over land, or by circuitous tactical routing over sea. The first is as hard as can be, considering IAF bases and AAD en route.
The second option is also a non sequitur; PAF aircraft flying from Karachi/Mauripur or Sindh will paint on LRTR Radars almost as soon as they take off, and will be tracked accordingly. Not for nothing that, IAF bases in SWAC right upto Pune have heavy concentrations of fighters right upto the redoubtable Flankers as well as dedicated Jags for Maritime Strike. This area already has heavy layers of both sensors and SAMs as well, where do you think that the earlier S-300s came? I am not even adding IAF's AEWACs to the mix.

Which aircraft twin-engine or 4-engine will make it through? Unless you consider the Chinese H-6; flying KHI-Colombo to attack??? But that will be even more of a 'turkey-shoot"......

Hi,

In fighting a war----I am not going to fight the war based on your scenario----I am going to decide what suites me-----. You will decide what you want to do

The primary goal to strike the flank is to disperse more resources in that area---and secondly---hit high value targets----.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Hi,

In fighting a war----I am not going to fight the war based on your scenario----I am going to decide what suites me-----. You will decide what you want to do

The primary goal to strike the flank is to disperse more resources in that area---and secondly---hit high value targets----.

Whatever scenario you are attempting to sketch; I already have the resources to forestall and counter..... without having to disperse any resources.
Just as that area has high value targets, it has high-octane defences. This flank is neither weak nor undefended.
Try some-place else.

 

[MastanKhan]

Whatever scenario you are attempting to sketch; I already have the resources to forestall and counter..... without having to disperse any resources.
Just as that area has high value targets, it has high-octane defences. This flank is neither weak nor undefended.
Try some-place else.

Sir,

In a war of words----the enemy has every base covered against Pakistan---so should Pakistan fold down----.

I will rate your post as a FUNNY post---.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Sir,

That is a very thoughtless post from you---. In a war of words----the enemy has every base covered against Pakistan---so should Pakistan fold down----.

I will rate your post as a FUNNY post---.

Your post is even funnier, IK. Where on earth did I say that Pakistan should "fold down", janaab?
What I said was clear as daylight, "Try some-place else"...... if you re-read my post.
Therefore you consider H-6 Bombers flying via tactical routing KHI-Cape Guardafui-Diego Garcia ; then you do not need to 'run the gauntlet' any more !! And pour "fire and brimstone" where you wish to.

 

[araz]

Irrespective of all of our likes, I think the realistic option is fhat PAF will go for J31 in 2023-25. I dont think we will have resources or the time to induct a new platform till 2018-20 due to induction of and development of JFTS. Any other needs will be filled by induction of new and MLUed 16s to make a total of 110- 120 platforms by 2018. This should do for us till such time the J31 comes on line. Much as I lo e SU35 and the J11D /16s there simply isnt enough time for their induction unless J31s get delayed beyond 2025. I dont deny the need but we simply dont have the resources to be able to afford both a twin Engine 4++ and a fifth generation aircraft. However my dream is that we skip 5th generation totally to utilize the 6th generation aircrafts by 2030. The lack of human element and the advancement of AI will make it a much morw cheaper solution plus a hypersonic plane would be able to dodge the high G missiles as te human element is a limiting factor. The only question is one of time and whether the engine technology of our brother Chinese nation would have advanced sufficiently in the next 15 years and whether Pak-China friendship is still as strong as it is now.

 

[sohail.ishaque]

I believe that JH-7B is the most unrestricted and affordable option too. But our Air force have i think changed its strategy after retiring Nanchang A-5 to induct and operate only Multi-role fighter jets no matter they lie in Light, Medium or Heavy Weight Category to save cost and provide best bang for the buck. So that's why i mentioned in my previous post too that we have to identify first for what role we need to require our twin-engine aircrafts. If for dedicated naval attack role than JH-7B. If more for an Air Superiority type of role then Su-35 is the best solution at hand.

ok what makes a jet, an air superiority fighter jet ?????

i mean, if a jet(JH-7B) is loaded with BVR missiles, ew suite, a heavy radar, can't it become an air superiority jet ??

and if dog fighting is a must for air superiority role then F35 when inducted by an any Airforce will need another jet, to save it duirng an air to air fight as F35 is not a dog fighter,... so the air superiority role is empty ??

 

[soundwave1987]

Day dreams China will not Export this jet to any country just like US keep F-22 to themselves
they made J-31 for exports just like US F-35

Not exactly, F-35 is an USAF and muti-national project from the beginning, yet J-31 is only an AVIC project for now. If J-31cannot attract PLAAF/PLAN support (or any kind of international interest) it may not survive for long. If PLAAF or PLAN decide to go for J-31 then it will be a very good option for PAF, otherwise J-20(may be a customized version) definitely has a chance in future Pakistani sky.

 

[gambit]

ok what makes a jet, an air superiority fighter jet ?????

i mean, if a jet(JH-7B) is loaded with BVR missiles, ew suite, a heavy radar, can't it become an air superiority jet ??

and if dog fighting is a must for air superiority role then F35 when inducted by an any Airforce will need another jet, to save it duirng an air to air fight as F35 is not a dog fighter,... so the air superiority role is empty ??

Air superiority is a mission type, not a category of design.

I can assign a 747 to air superiority if I wanted. But it would be absurd, no ?

What make an air superiority fighter is when the designers take all the critical aspects of how to fight and win an air-air engagement, THEN design an aircraft base on those aspects.

For example...Speed is important, but not as important as acceleration. There is a difference. Acceleration is a change in speed, so in a maneuver, it is not critical to achieve 100 km/h as it is more critical to go from 0 to 100 km/h in as short a time as possible. In theory, I can have a change in speed of 1 km/h and if I sustain this rate long enough, I can reach the speed of light.

Everything must be in balance. I can load a 747 with 100 of most accurate missiles in the world but since the 747 cannot maneuver as well as a Sopwith Camel, a WW I prop jobber, the 747 will fail as an air superiority platform. On the other hand, I can load an F-22 with just 6 or 8 of those most accurate missiles in the world and the F-22 will clear an area of the sky in short order.