What twin engine Jet Fighter Suits PAF Doctrine?

[SQ8]

Your post is even funnier, IK. Where on earth did I say that Pakistan should "fold down", janaab?
What I said was clear as daylight, "Try some-place else"...... if you re-read my post.
Therefore you consider H-6 Bombers flying via tactical routing KHI-Cape Guardafui-Diego Garcia ; then you do not need to 'run the gauntlet' any more !! And pour "fire and brimstone" where you wish to.

On the less than bravado instilled scenarios along with "know it all" tirades, I would humbly point that a simple look at the weapons development and purchasing history of both nations should clear up where is what being looked at and what was done in response.

There was a reason there was a sudden focus on SHORADs by the IAF in the last decade along with a tit for tat buy of stand off weapons. The 90's was all about India securing the low level airspace via a combination of aerostat and low level radar systems since the PAF's mirage fleet excels at going at 100 feet rather smoothly and is an inculcated skill from the days of Risalpur.

However, to counter that low level coverage.. the PAF focused on stand off systems for its Mirages that would allow it to penetrate the airspace just enough and still get the deeper targets. Regardless of coverage,the denel cruise system based weapons are still much small targets than Mirages and hence Radar sees them generally too late. Add this to the capablity of being launched from a 100 km away and you end having to extend interceptors out where they lose the additional safety of ground based defence when confronting attacking aircraft. In short, the IAF was left vulnerable in a very crucial way. That gap needed to be closed rapidly and hence Spyder.

To offset that losing gap, the PAF might move elsewhere and the grapevine suggests something evolutionary. But to sum it up, the Indian ADGE has little or no gaps in coverage(other than some barnstorming grade daring approaches) and has very few gaps in weapons it can employ in them.

So, us subcontinent folk are pretty ingenious in planning for war( execution is another matter).
However, where the PAF is plagued with a paucity of funds and corruption, the IAF has its own plagues with a serious mismatch in manpower along with a bumbling bureaucracy; the result is that the IAF is not what is should be on paper.

 

[chengdusudise]

Day dreams China will not Export this jet to any country just like US keep F-22 to themselves
they made J-31 for exports just like US F-35

American is American ,China is China ,they are two different country. a customized J-20 for PAF is possible

 

[batmannow]

and how do you know, its your word against russain officails


thats an old russain tatic to push the india to go for a specailied su35,which will be to indian standards. they even called it the su35-mki. but they wanted western kit and went for the rafale

You are getting funny , now !
If its stupid tactic by Russian defence officials then they should have asked Pakistan in past at least 10 times ?

about getting , su-27 ,mig-27 ,mig-29, mig25, & su-30 ?

Please stop , your one eyed theories to make yourself happy , on the top of Pakistan is flying its home made , thunders on Russian engines ?lolzz
Accept the reality ?

Irrespective of all of our likes, I think the realistic option is fhat PAF will go for J31 in 2023-25. I dont think we will have resources or the time to induct a new platform till 2018-20 due to induction of and development of JFTS. Any other needs will be filled by induction of new and MLUed 16s to make a total of 110- 120 platforms by 2018. This should do for us till such time the J31 comes on line. Much as I lo e SU35 and the J11D /16s there simply isnt enough time for their induction unless J31s get delayed beyond 2025. I dont deny the need but we simply dont have the resources to be able to afford both a twin Engine 4++ and a fifth generation aircraft. However my dream is that we skip 5th generation totally to utilize the 6th generation aircrafts by 2030. The lack of human element and the advancement of AI will make it a much morw cheaper solution plus a hypersonic plane would be able to dodge the high G missiles as te human element is a limiting factor. The only question is one of time and whether the engine technology of our brother Chinese nation would have advanced sufficiently in the next 15 years and whether Pak-China friendship is still as strong as it is now.

Strong economy comes with , strong defence , countries without strong defence even having strong economies are reluctant on others to help them in any case of security matters , which make them slave to the ones with stronger defences ?
Japan & Germany are great examples , they can't do anything without the will of allied nations specially america & Britain ?
On the other hand , countries like China & Russia have built their economies on stronger defence , they are super powers enjoying , most of the powers same as USA UK ,FRANCE ?
So we need to build our defence further stronger , then of today ?
Even if we need to eat grass , same as the way we adopted , for our nucks ?

I can have a long debate about , J-31s getting matured & been inducted in PLAF & PAF , any how it will take at least 15 to 20 more years ?
What you think till then , no war will happen ?
& our crunt PAF inventory will be enough to counter any aggression against Pakistan ?
SU-35 & JH-7 combination can give us cover , range , fire power , tactical maneuvering , for at least 30 more years to come , in which we can make our economy able us to , invest or buy any 5th or 6th generation fighter aircrafts needed at that time ?
If we can secure our today , our towmarow will be better in all of our required terms ?
Or , we can try our best to become a economic power house like Germany & Japan , & asking permissions from UK : USA to conduct our army exercises ?


We have enough of the dam single engine fighters marvels like F-16s in our hands & we don't need them any more with their dam ABC's , & blk 52,53,54 ,55 600000 ?

We should stop wasting that money & instead ask our dam suppliers to bring some thing else ,
on our table like F -15s , if not then we can get it from any where we want ?

Any how still we have to pay those F-16S , SO WHY NOT WE PAY FOR MORE POWER & RANGE ?

 

[Falcon26]

I am astounded by the repeated claims that PAF can't acquire the F-15/F-18 because the US won't sell such advanced planes to Pakistan. If the US is selling the F-16 C/D & assorted weaponry like AMRAAMs to Pakistan, what's preventing it from selling F-15/F-18? The only obstacle in my view is either Pakistan isn't interested in these planes or the price of these planes doesn't justify the acquisition.

It's my personal view that PAF will acquire either a F-35 or Euro-Fighter (within the next 5-years) to restore the qualitative balance in the region. The prospects of an IAF SU-30MKI & Rafael strike formation headed towards the border is such a daunting threat to be left to simply JF-17 & F-16s. The fact that the PAF leadership is now openly talking about the need for a 5th generation fighters is a clear indication of Pakistan's realization of the threat.

Finally, PAF needs to stay as far away as possible from Chinese copycats such as J-31. These planes simply don't provide PAF with the cutting edge technology necessary to operate in dense electronic environments. IAF in the last few years has been investing billions in the acquisitions of high-tech air defense radars & jammers. It's had to see the FC-31 surviving in these environment.

If all else fails, PAF is better off investing in the Turkish or Korean Stealth fighter projects & using the time till then to build up its F-16 fleet & advancing the JF-17 program.

 

[The Eagle]

Actually , the time for J11d is gone , that's the only reason why , we are not looking into it ?
Our best option with China is of , j-31 & we are moving on it , but it will be for 15 years later ?
For now , SU-35 are the best given option to us , as they are 4.5++ means they can be upgraded nearly to 5th generation & can serve at least 30 years to come , giving us the biggest reach , the situation in our region is getting worse ?


Actually , its a night mare many Indians have , that Pakistan will get its hands on , the SU family any how ?
Hope you have heard depty forighen minster of Russia s famous statement just about a month ago , that Russia is ready to make deal for SU-35S & then whole Indian media & its govt went bonker ?lolzz
So be ready , for your worst night mare ?

Well it could be the case that days for J -11 D are gone or we were not interested but don't you think SU-35 is going to cost us more in respect of upgraded version then maintenance and we would be considering Russia 's spares supply history. If western machines are costly to maintain then Russian's are hard to maintain.

Hopefully we aren't thinking about EFT.

So the 1st option is, induct 16s and spend on JFT and in the meantime participate for 5th generation.

Or

If 4.5 or ++ is a must then Opt a 4.5+++ platform that can serve us in long terms 1st china then Russia, so wouldn't need to rush for 5th generation and participate in 5th gen or wait to buy off the shelf but in the last money matters. While going for any flanker, don't we think how long gonna Flankers saga will exist?

Keeping in view the conclusion at PDF, Pak is almost doomed, nobody is selling us anything good, we are out of options, we are empty pockets, most incompetent are high ranked so no productivity or bravery and we are like sitting ducks but interesting thing is Enemy still fears and even avoids to talk attack.

 

[The Eagle]

Hi,

If the pak air force does not have assets to divert the attention of the enemy air force over a larger area---it has already lost the battle. The enemy can strike at the place and time of its choice and with numbers that choses to----.

And yes---you are one of the few who reads and comprehends my post---and as it does not confirm with the standard propaganda of paf---most posters either cannot understand.

Supposedly---when Ghengis Khan was confronting Khwarazm Shah---the Khan's flank was able to strike the Shah's main force---after a fierce battle it retreated---enticing the Shah's cavalry to follow it---which it did---the chase went on for a very long time till a moment came when the Khan's flank turned back and smashed the Shah's cavalry right to the last man.

The Shah never found out what happened to his cavalry----. Once the cavalry was taken out---the Khan was able to confront the Shah's INFANTRY at a place of Khan's choice and thus decimated it.

There were many scenarios taking place at that time----Shah's arrogance was being fanned by the mullahs---he was not listening to his generals----all the kiss ar-se were telling him that he was the chosen one----he had no value of his cavalry----he did not understand the URGENCY to move at a faster pace---he cared less where he confronted the Khan's army.

Oh---by the way--the muslim army was stopping 5 times a day for prayers----and very slow moving out.

In the end---they got caught in a tight space---and it was just a matter of hours----if they had another half day more available to them or maybe a couple of three hours at a fast pace---they would have faced Khan's army in the open---where the Khan could not face them and did not want to face them.

The purpose of these comments is----that you need to have resources to spread the enemy thin---pakistan has a smaller area to cover---the enemy has larger area to cover----pakistan has a smaller area to protect----and if pakistan has long range strike aircraft---it can simply run circles around the enemy----.

Because----the enemy has delegated certain values to certain geographical areas----

east punjab----areas of rajasthan---gujrat----0---4 value------partial to total destruction acceptable

maharshtra---karnatka and other states-----4----10 value partial strike very damaging

mahrashtra------mumbai valued at 10------the jewel in the crown---and all the surrounding area----.

The assets protecting east punjab etc will be depleted when many aircraft are sent to protect the Jewel in the Crown----MUMBAI-----and the region around it.

And that would mean comparatively open skies for pakistan air force----.

Paf cannot battle the enemy concentrated in a narrow area-----it needs to find ways to THIN OUT the enemy resources-----.

If my game plan is followed----the enemy air force will have serious issues---

The paf---instead of spending 2 billion dollars on this supposed purchase of 8 F16---would have been better served with 50 plus JH7B's at 30 mil a pop---.

The Muslim prayers has nothing to do with the loss at all.

 

[帅的一匹]

J16 of course, why China can't sell J16 to PAF. Fck those Russian copyright. It's totally different from Su30, be it avionics/weapon/engine.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

American is American ,China is China ,they are two different country. a customized J-20 for PAF is possible

do tag me when that will happen ? in Reality

 

[MystryMan]

In my opinion, Instead of going for an outright purchase PAF should lease 2-3 squadrons of the available planes (JH-7B/J-11/J-16) until the 5th Gen solution comes online.

 

[batmannow]

Well it could be the case that days for J -11 D are gone or we were not interested but don't you think SU-35 is going to cost us more in respect of upgraded version then maintenance and we would be considering Russia 's spares supply history. If western machines are costly to maintain then Russian's are hard to maintain.

Hopefully we aren't thinking about EFT.

So the 1st option is, induct 16s and spend on JFT and in the meantime participate for 5th generation.

Or

If 4.5 or ++ is a must then Opt a 4.5+++ platform that can serve us in long terms 1st china then Russia, so wouldn't need to rush for 5th generation and participate in 5th gen or wait to buy off the shelf but in the last money matters. While going for any flanker, don't we think how long gonna Flankers saga will exist?

Keeping in view the conclusion at PDF, Pak is almost doomed, nobody is selling us anything good, we are out of options, we are empty pockets, most incompetent are high ranked so no productivity or bravery and we are like sitting ducks but interesting thing is Enemy still fears and even avoids to talk attack.

Flankers are here for long time we have best of defence relations with only one nation on earth which I'd called China ?
This nation is operating flankers more then any one else in this world , many of spares , over hauling facilities with them are far more cheaper & long lasting to us then investing a locked machine like F-16s ?
Thus , we are not dommed anyway , its just we need to change our gears ?
If we doesn't have money , how can we keep buying F-16s each & now ?
Are they giving us free ?
I don't think so , mentaining a flanker is not a mission impossible as you tried to put up in your post , with China mastering in flankers & its upgrades at its will means it would be at least 50 % easier then , our F-16s ?
Try to Google how many air forces still are flying mig-21 s all around the world & then find a fighter aircraft produced by west , with same production date with it ?
I can bet you , not many you can find , cause that Russian plane is far more easier to mentain .
Su-35 will blend like a chocolate into PAF , if our berucrats wanted it but ,only problem lies of their whole families getting american visas for their future ?

J16 of course, why China can't sell J16 to PAF. Fck those Russian copyright. It's totally different from Su30, be it avionics/weapon/engine.

Thread strating post forgot to mention this Chinese beast , which I think always a good option for PAF , TODAY , TOWMAROW .

 

[Blue Marlin]

You are getting funny , now !
If its stupid tactic by Russian defence officials then they should have asked Pakistan in past at least 10 times ?

about getting , su-27 ,mig-27 ,mig-29, mig25, & su-30 ?

Please stop , your one eyed theories to make yourself happy , on the top of Pakistan is flying its home made , thunders on Russian engines ?lolzz
Accept the reality ?

back then indian only had russia as supplier as the west had santions on india due to the nuclear tests and pakistan had going a few treatys with the usa thus giving pakistan access to weapons from europe and the usa whilst india was left with russia.
so the next time do a bit of reasearch before opening your pie hole

 

[batmannow]

I am astounded by the repeated claims that PAF can't acquire the F-15/F-18 because the US won't sell such advanced planes to Pakistan. If the US is selling the F-16 C/D & assorted weaponry like AMRAAMs to Pakistan, what's preventing it from selling F-15/F-18? The only obstacle in my view is either Pakistan isn't interested in these planes or the price of these planes doesn't justify the acquisition.

It's my personal view that PAF will acquire either a F-35 or Euro-Fighter (within the next 5-years) to restore the qualitative balance in the region. The prospects of an IAF SU-30MKI & Rafael strike formation headed towards the border is such a daunting threat to be left to simply JF-17 & F-16s. The fact that the PAF leadership is now openly talking about the need for a 5th generation fighters is a clear indication of Pakistan's realization of the threat.

Finally, PAF needs to stay as far away as possible from Chinese copycats such as J-31. These planes simply don't provide PAF with the cutting edge technology necessary to operate in dense electronic environments. IAF in the last few years has been investing billions in the acquisitions of high-tech air defense radars & jammers. It's had to see the FC-31 surviving in these environment.

If all else fails, PAF is better off investing in the Turkish or Korean Stealth fighter projects & using the time till then to build up its F-16 fleet & advancing the JF-17 program.

For USof A , Whatever they have given us ,, its been found in Chinese hands ,, F-16s are not their prime fighters anymore , so its on every new years sale since late 80s , & some times its been used as lollipop?
But F-15s & F18s are thier , prime machines the real battle fighters , they won't give it to Pakistan to be copied by China , as their stingers in late 80s ?
Its not money ,, its about military domination ?

back then indian only had russia as supplier as the west had santions on india due to the nuclear tests and pakistan had going a few treatys with the usa thus giving pakistan access to weapons from europe and the usa whilst india was left with russia.
so the next time do a bit of reasearch before opening your pie hole

Wake up , amed your research , & check Pakistan was under sanctions more then India before kargill war & after nuclear tests ?

 

[Blue Marlin]

For USof A , Whatever they have given us ,, its been found in Chinese hands ,, F-16s are not their prime fighters anymore , so its on every new years sale since late 80s , & some times its been used as lollipop?
But F-15s & F18s are thier , prime machines the real battle fighters , they won't give it to Pakistan to be copied by China , as their stingers in late 80s ?
Its not money ,, its about military domination ?


Wake up , amed your research , & check Pakistan was under sanctions more then India before kargill war & after nuclear tests ?

before 1998 sunny
Southeast Asia Treaty Organization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Baghdad Pact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[batmannow]

before 1998 sunny
Southeast Asia Treaty Organization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Baghdad Pact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What it has anything to do with weapon aqusations of India & Pakistan ?
Its a known factor that they both were ridding different horses ?
Let's say , did Russia asked Pakistan any deal when they , were about to sale their , SU -30s ? I think its after all ?

 

[Silicon0000]

What twin engine Jet Fighter Suits PAF Doctrine?

Till 2018-2020: None, None, None.
After 2018-2020: J-31 or J-20 according to need and financials.