What makes a good daughter-in-law

[Azeem_Ahmed]

A lot discussion on various forums has been made on saas bahu or the laws but this issue none has resolved and i tell nobody can even resolve it... it is a issue the more discuss it, the more go longer... This is a vicious circle if a bahu comes in house that is victimized and when the same bahu becomes the saas she also victimize to her bahu... This is a such puzzled game none has resolve it... and is beyond to understand.... very few bahus are who spend the genuine life living with her in-laws and very few saas are there who treat their bahus as is treated with their daughters....

 

[Hell hound]

wow you guys are still at it

ok

i will just change the subject then...to an equally bizarre and mundane one



tell me guys..what do you think should be the ideal age for getting married....

never
kabhi bhi nahi

 

[El Sidd]

never
kabhi bhi nahi

I say

The age when this answer changes to yes abhi forun.

 

[prashantazazel]

Men from the subcontinent tend to be submissive to their parents and quite spineless to admit when their own parents make a mistake. They need to take a firm stand on right/wrong, and side with the one who is on the right (parents/wife ).
Without the freedom offered by a separate accommodation, a couple would hardly find any time for romance. Most parents don't need to see their children everyday(unless they are sick ), so you could buy a separate place in the same city.
It also allows the couple to dress comfortably, enjoy the kind of tv/music they like. Most girls from the current generation wouldn't want to follow all of the old customs (like purdah/cooking for everyone ), and this could potentially increase the conflicts in a joint family system.
As we go higher along the economic ladder, there are several other things a couple would prefer to do alone. Say, chilling by the pool, lounging with friends, parties....

 

[abdulbarijan]

I find most of the "adults" here to be an utter embarrassment to this country. I question my views, you need a wake up call.

A wake up call from what exactly? What am I ignorant about? Educate me child.

Thats freaking dumb, when you have an arranged marriage stuff like that counts. If you don't want to go through all that go find a girlfriend. Your points are nothing more than a blame game. Booohooo they wont give me her hand in marriage cuz i don't drive a mercedes, maybe then find a classy woman. Nobody would give their daughter to a broke man just to make more people miserable unless both parties are poor.

From "economic reasons for joint family are trash" all the way to "booooohooo". The very fact that you need to minimize a position which you admittedly have no experience in, is a mere reflection of the weakness in your so called argument that you need to make up for by including all this drivel.

My point is that joint family system is retarded and unreligious, living with your parents when being an adult is something you should be to some extent, be ashamed for. Nothing being talked about in this thread is related to that issue. Not getting married is completely normal and nothing to be ashamed of, why so salty? Just to get married and have the label or marriage attached to a woman's name, she should go through the hell called joint family system, be the maid to the family, a baby maker and a thing to bang every night. What about her individuality?

-Do you have any evidence, which states specifically that joint family systems are haram/unreligious? BTW, I also know of religious arguments against JF systems, but to call it unreligious/ haram, you would have to bring some very clear and specific evidence to do that and there are many scholars that state it is perfectly fine provided certain conditions are met with respect of hijab/ modesty etc.

- As far as Joint family systems being retarded .. Just because something doesn't appeal to you its retarded? In addition, YOU are a minority. The majority(atleast in Pakistan) find it really useful because of the economic benefits that it provides. Now don't get me wrong, I actually get the cons of joint family system as well, but to deny the very existence of some pros ... ignorant is the word that comes to mind.

-Living as an adult with your parents is something one should be ashamed of? Not really, the fact that you leave the people alone when they need you and are too proud to ask for help ... the people who raised you from the time you couldn't get a fly off from the top of your nose ....leaving those people at their time of need should be something that brings shame to you, but I guess, throwing your parents in to old houses and rationalizing it as for the better because they have 'better care' is the way to go for the next generation.

-Her individuality? Guess what ... You women yourself want the man to be the one responsible for you i.e. take care of you, provide stable financial support etc. i.e. you want the man to fulfill his gender role. But fulfilling your gender role diminishes your individuality? and to think you gals are the ones talking 'hypocrisy' ...

-Lastly, since you advocate for a total removal of the joint family system, what is the alternative that you propose that fulfills/ satisfies the economic, cultural and religious realities of our country, in place of the joint family system .. In fact do you have any alternative to begin with cuz it would be an embarrassment if you don't ....after all this big tirade of yours ..
How about this ... Try bringing up one societal system that works, keeping in mind these variables.

• Nearly 40-50% of the population can be classified as poor based on the metric you take.
• Literacy rate is around 58%. As of 2007 only 6% of the population graduated from universities. Thats 9% male population and 3.5% female population. Keep in mind that a fresh uni grad (assuming a bachelors degree) is hired at around 20-35K at best.
• The average age of marriage is around 22-24 years old.
• The average cost of living is based on the data by numbeo.com is around Rs. 43,622 per month. That's if you only include utilities (gas, water, electricity, internet etc.), child care and rent for a 1 bedroom apartment. I didn't even include the essentials, transportation, leisure and clothing costs etc. not to mention the sudden hospital bill that pops up from time to time.
• So squeeze all of those costs in a workable societal system that can replace the existing one, maybe then we can talk.

How will those needs be met:
- Can she roam around in a night gown? - Shorts?
- Lay on the sofa?
- Have a Sunday lay in? Or does she have to be up at 7am making breakfast for the rest of the household?
Why do you think most girls treat their parents house as a holiday resort?

By dividing the house in to defined sections. Think of it as an apartment building floor, with each individual family having one apartment on the floor. This fulfills the needs of privacy etc. and the gal could do what ever the heck she wants without any fear / judgement etc. This also gives the guy the advantage of being at close proximity to his parents, since in our culture, guys are the primary care takers of the parents in the time of their need. So it also takes care of that responsibility as well. win-win .. aint it?

This isn't about Man vs Woman which seems to be your favourite topic and subject of the day any given time.

and before this slips my mind again, your the same person that posted posts like "girl are like flowers" "girl power" etc. all over this forum, if you can bring in your gender, and you can discuss from your perspective, I've every right to bring in mine and discuss, compare and contrast, what ever the heck I want, from my perspective. Like I said before, equality goes both ways.

 

[Divergent]

A wake up call from what exactly? What am I ignorant about? Educate me child.

From "economic reasons for joint family are trash" all the way to "booooohooo". The very fact that you need to minimize a position which you admittedly have no experience in, is a mere reflection of the weakness in your so called argument that you need to make up by including all this drivel.

-Do you have any evidence, which states specifically that joint family systems are haram/unreligious? BTW, I also know of religious arguments against JF systems, but to call it unreligious/ haram, you would have to bring some very clear and specific evidence to do that and there are many scholars that state it is perfectly fine provided certain conditions are met with respect of hijab/ modesty etc.

- As far as Joint family systems being retarded .. Just because something doesn't appeal to you its retarded? In addition, YOU are a minority. The majority(atleast in Pakistan) find it really useful because of the economic benefits that it provides. Now don't get me wrong, I actually get the cons of joint family system as well, but to deny the very existence of some pros ... ignorant is the word that comes to mind.

-Living as an adult with your parents is something one should be ashamed of? Not really, the fact that you leave the people alone when they need you and are too proud to ask for help ... the people who raised you from the time you couldn't get a fly off from the top of your nose ....leaving those people at their time of need should be something that brings shame to you, but I guess, throwing your parents in to old houses and rationalizing it as for the better because they have 'better care' is the way to go for the next generation.

-Her individuality? Guess what ... You women yourself want the man to be the one responsible for you i.e. take care of you, provide stable financial support etc. i.e. you want the man to fulfill his gender role. But fulfilling your gender role diminishes your individuality? and to think you gals are the ones talking 'hypocrisy' ...

-Lastly, since you advocate for a total removal of the joint family system, what is the alternative that you propose that fulfills/ satisfies the economic, cultural and religious realities of our country, in place of the joint family system .. In fact do you have any alternative to begin with cuz it would be an embarrassment if you don't ....after all this big tirade of yours ..
How about this ... Try bringing up one societal system that works, keeping in mind these variables.

• Nearly 40-50% of the population can be classified as poor based on the metric you take.
• Literacy rate is around 58%. As of 2007 only 6% of the population graduated from universities. Thats 9% male population and 3.5% female population. Keep in mind that a fresh uni grad (assuming a bachelors degree) is hired at around 20-35K at best.
• The average age of marriage is around 22-24 years old.
• The average cost of living is based on the data by numbeo.com is around Rs. 43,622 per month. That's if you only include utilities (gas, water, electricity, internet etc.), child care and rent for a 1 bedroom apartment. I didn't even include the essentials, transportation, leisure and clothing costs etc. not to mention the sudden hospital bill that pops up from time to time.
• So squeeze all of those costs in a workable societal system that can replace the existing one, maybe then we can talk.

By dividing the house in to defined sections. Think of it as an apartment building floor, with each individual family having one apartment on the floor. This fulfills the needs of privacy etc. and the gal could do what ever the heck she wants without any fear / judgement etc. This also gives the guy the advantage of being at close proximity to his parents, since in our culture, guys are the primary care takers of the parents in the time of their need. So it also takes care of that responsibility as well. win-win .. aint it?

and before this slips my mind again, your the same person that posted posts like "girl are like flowers" "girl power" etc. all over this forum, if you can bring in your gender, and you can discuss from your perspective, I've every right to bring in mine and discuss, compare and contrast, what ever the heck I want, from my perspective. Like I said before, equality goes both ways.

That was just pulling leg - clearly missed.

And for the record I didn't contrast any male responsibilities in. I am simply suggesting it is a wise idea for females to have their own place. I didn't compare males so therefore no you cannot compare, contrast the two with me especially because I never did it nor demeaned men.

Further to that many other MALES also agreed so why not counter them too? Why just females? Pretty lame.

 

[abdulbarijan]

That was just pulling leg - clearly missed.

And for the record I didn't contrast any male responsibilities in. I am simply suggesting it is a wise idea for females to have their own place. I didn't compare males so therefore no you cannot compare, contrast the two with me especially because I never did it nor demeaned men.

Further to that many other MALES also agreed so why not counter them too? Why just females? Pretty lame.

Lame is the fact that your arguments have been flattened to the point where your practically going "Why are you targeting me" which btw I'm not. I usually care about the ideas. Your argument was joint family systems don't let women have the right to privacy and wear casual etc etc. I just gave you a situation where both are possible, to which you haven't replied .. and lastly,

I didn't compare males so therefore no you cannot compare, contrast the two with me especially because I never did it

Husbands should help out especially if she's covering his family chores as well that is not fair. Imagine if it was the other way round? If a man had to move in with his Wife, he's just about getting used to the whole environment and his Mrs always has to check or seek permission from her family to carry out simple decisions of going out to eat, or he has to sort out his in laws laundry, make food for them, whilst his Mrs is out late.

 

[Divergent]

Lame is the fact that your arguments have been flattened to the point where your practically going "Why are you targeting me" which btw I'm not. I usually care about the ideas. Your argument was joint family systems don't let women have the right to privacy and wear casual etc etc. I just gave you a situation where both are possible, to which you haven't replied .. and lastly,

I never said they don't give them that right, realistically you yourself know that won't settle easy and not end up being a lullaby but more like metal music gone wrong.

@Azlan Haider @Ocean @prashantazazel made same points but I don't see you countering them? But it's offensive when a female says the same thing which already proves her opinion or view based on herself is considered inappropriate?

And to answer your question, if a female has that and she's okay with it fine.

Lastly it's his parents and his duty. Not hers. If she does do it that's nice of her but if not she's not committing any wrong.

 

[abdulbarijan]

I never said they don't give them that right, realistically you yourself know that won't settle easy and not end up being a lullaby but more like metal music gone wrong.

Ahh the "you yourself know" argument ... We meet again! Read this sloooowwwwwlllyyyyy ... I gave you a situation in which the rights were being perfectly met. You haven't even replied to that argument, this statement you've written is more like you stating your position again, adding "you yourself know" as some sort of a qualifier. While we're at it, more than 50% of the marriages in the US fail, sooooo are you and your friends ready to go and declare the institution of marriage obsolete as well? More or less all structures and institutions are dependent upon the external and internal factors in the environment, account for them and manage them carefully, the structure is more likely to go well, mess with them ... and the troubles begin.

@Azlan Haider @Ocean@prashantazazel made same points but I don't see you countering them? But it's offensive when a female says the same thing which already proves her opinion or view based on herself is considered inappropriate?

Yeah I voiced my disagreements with the points you and your friends made (as per you the same) so why would I counter something that I've already countered before?

And to answer your question, if a female has that and she's okay with it fine.Lastly it's his parents and his duty. Not hers. If she does do it that's nice of her but if not she's not committing any wrong.

Thats a perfectly agreeable statement, You seem to be forgetting that I'm the same dude that said that forget the responsibilities of the daughter in law for the moment, and let's discuss the responsibilities of the husband, the brother/sister in laws, mother in law, father in law etc. first because the daughter has alot on her plate to deal with right after marriage. It's when you start going after the structures like joint family is where I voice my opinion, and that too mentioning that I recognize the cons that you speak of, but we don't exactly have an acceptable alternative. Something all of you voicing your criticism against the JF system have failed to provide.

 

[Divergent]

Ahh the "you yourself know" argument ... We meet again! Read this sloooowwwwwlllyyyyy ... I gave you a situation in which the rights were being perfectly met. You haven't even replied to that argument, this statement you've written is more like you stating your position again, adding "you yourself know" as some sort of a qualifier. While we're at it, more than 50% of the marriages in the US fail, sooooo are you and your friends ready to go and declare the institution of marriage obsolete as well? More or less all structures and institutions are dependent upon the external and internal factors in the environment, account for them and manage them carefully, the structure is more likely to go well, mess with them ... and the troubles begin.

Yeah I voiced my disagreements with the points you and your friends made (as per you the same) so why would I counter something that I've already countered before?

Thats a perfectly agreeable statement, You seem to be forgetting that I'm the same dude that said that forget the responsibilities of the daughter in law for the moment, and let's discuss the responsibilities of the husband, the brother/sister in laws, mother in law, father in law etc. first because the daughter has alot on her plate to deal with right after marriage. It's when you start going after the structures like joint family is where I voice my opinion, and that too mentioning that I recognize the cons that you speak of, but we don't exactly have an acceptable alternative. Something all of you voicing your criticism have failed to provide.

What have we failed to provide? I didn't write off joint family systems did I? I just said its BETTER if they have their own place.

At some point yours or for that matter anyone else's parents must have also had separate residence, not many live with their uncles or aunts or parents do they? So it shouldn't be an issue if the same outcome is applied through coming generation

 

[abdulbarijan]

What have we failed to provide? I didn't write off joint family systems did I? I just said its BETTER if they have their own place.

At some point yours or for that matter anyone else's parents must have also had separate residence, not many live with their uncles or aunts or parents do they? So it shouldn't be an issue if the same outcome is applied through coming generation

A suitable alternative to the joint family system that can overcome the cons and somehow provide similar pros (in terms of cost benefits) is what I'm asking for. If we look at your opinion objectively, you said that women should accept it (joint family) initially and then as time passes taper off to your own place. The problem with that solution is the factor of 'time'. You've not specified it.

The fact of the matter is, in terms of a cost-benefit analysis, the joint family system might even trump the rentals because alot of the costs become unified and it becomes alot easier and plus most people would actually look to build their own houses and that is how a joint family naturally breaks down in to it's components. But that happens when the household has enough savings to actually construct a house, for most people that usually happens at the age of retirement i.e. 60.

So your right in terms of at some point the joint family actually separates, but I'm not sure what type of cons of the joint family, the wife is going to escape when she's in her 50's or 60's but till then usually the joint family most likely will stay intact and the daughter in law coming to the new home will also be under a joint family.

 

[Hell hound]

The response by the member hellhound in favor of joint family system is very ridiculous, would any of these guys will be okay with their own sisters living in households where there are dewars and jeths around and women lack their privacy, and if these pro joint family system guys' sisters have to do laundry of her sister in laws, brother in laws too? Cook food for everyone, face interferences in your life. Joint family is workable in two scenarios
1. Your house is very huge so that women can enjoy privacy and have enough rooms for kids.
2. Even if house is not huge people do not interfere and pry into each others affairs.
Even daughter in laws could be very lousy , fasadi and make life difficult for her husbands siblings. Har khabar apnay maikay pohanchana and so much more stuff.

bhai jan/bahen ji mujhay kisi kay akelay rehnay say koi issue nahi hay main to khud ek liberal or live let live type banda hon.mujhay masla @Manama ki us bat say ay kay ek system ko jo kay more than 50 % log pakistan main use kartey han or us main khush bhi hain us ko abolish kar do.bhai app ko nahi pasand app na karo esy mahol main shadi jo karna chata hay usay karney do.yeah abolish kar kay apni mentality doson pay force karney wala kam ghalat hay.mera mana hay jo kam jab tak kisi ko nuksan nahi dey raha usey nahi cherna chaey.kyu kay har kisi ki apni life hay apni choice hay app ko ya app ki behan ko husband ki family kay sath rehna hay to raho nahi rehna na raho mujhay us say koi issue nahi but agar main ya koi or apni family kay sath rehna chahta hon to app ko is say koi masla nahi hona chaye or na hi degrade karney ki zarorat hay.

 

[Divergent]

A suitable alternative to the joint family system that can overcome the cons and somehow provide similar pros (in terms of cost benefits) is what I'm asking for. If we look at your opinion objectively, you said that women should accept it (joint family) initially and then as time passes taper off to your own place. The problem with that solution is the factor of 'time'. You've not specified it.

The fact of the matter is, in terms of a cost-benefit analysis, the joint family system might even trump the rentals because alot of the costs become unified and it becomes alot easier and plus most people would actually look to build their own houses and that is how a joint family naturally breaks down in to it's components. But that happens when the household has enough savings to actually construct a house, for most people that usually happens at the age of retirement i.e. 60.

So your right in terms of at some point the joint family actually separates, but I'm not sure what type of cons of the joint family, the wife is going to escape when she's in her 50's or 60's but till then usually the joint family most likely will stay intact and the daughter in law coming to the new home will also be under a joint family.

Joint families aren't great if there's more than one son.

If you don't mind me asking, are you the only son?

 

[El Sidd]

bhai jan/bahen ji mujhay kisi kay akelay rehnay say koi issue nahi hay main to khud ek liberal or live let live type banda hon.mujhay masla @Manama ki us bat say ay kay ek system ko jo kay more than 50 % log pakistan main use kartey han or us main khush bhi hain us ko abolish kar do.bhai app ko nahi pasand app na karo esy mahol main shadi jo karna chata hay usay karney do.yeah abolish kar kay apni mentality doson pay force karney wala kam ghalat hay.mera mana hay jo kam jab tak kisi ko nuksan nahi dey raha usey nahi cherna chaey.kyu kay har kisi ki apni life hay apni choice hay app ko ya app ki behan ko husband ki family kay sath rehna hay to raho nahi rehna na raho mujhay us say koi issue nahi but agar main ya koi or apni family kay sath rehna chahta hon to app ko is say koi masla nahi hona chaye or na hi degrade karney ki zarorat hay.

Common sense is not very common these days.
Bigarne ki umar me sudharne chale ha

Allah bachaye

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

if you know anything about polygamy in religion, a man can not marry a second wife if the first wife isnt okay with it as shown by the marriage between ali r.a and fatima r.a so i don't see what youre getting at.

Poor economic condition is a trash argument, we don't even move away from our parents being adults, ofcourse its thought that a wife should be brought to that home as well. our culture and our traditions that we hold so tightly are nothing more than backward thinking inherited from our time with india, sadly theyve moved on but we still refuse to do so


Well said.

No most fatwaz and ruiling say that Muslim man is not required the consent and permission from first wife for second marriage
https://islamqa.info/en/p61
And i would say that you are either naive or very young to understand this. A poor guy earning 150 or 200 rupees a day cannot afford to get a seperate house after marriage so such people on low income have no option but to live together under one roof with either parent or sibling. I bet you have no clue about how much money you needed to buy a land and build one or two bedroom house..since you are too young and never been in practical life so you have no clue of rent and others expenses as well..
If all girls from poor families demand to live seprate after marriage then i bet most of them will remain singles for rest of their lives

Pakistani men, most of them, do NOT want a modern wife with forward thinking. Male hegemony is deeply ingrained in our strictly patriarchal society, and anything that threatens male supremacy is considered 'unacceptable' ...

Not really. Its more suitable option for lazy guy or guy on low income to have a working wife so that she bring some money. You can not dominate those women who are economically and socially independent. Men dominance comes with more roles and responsibilities in our culture..there will be no issue of dominance if boht share equal roles and responsibilities as happening in west