What made IAF Stand down in Kargil

[navtrek]

Pakistan shot down armed aerial vehicles that dared to cross our borders--not by mistake--but in a war theatre.

india shot down an unarmed, big aeroplane with trainees on it.

Shows the caliber and standard of both forces..

One force showed martial disciple and took on military threats head on---while the other force backstabbed by taking a shot at an unarmed trainee filled airplane.

No wonder hindus, being inferior, were ruled by dominant, martial Muslims for thousand year.

Crazy people keep dragging religion in to everything. Have you ever seen an Indian dragging religion in to everything why ? because we don't give a damn for the religion. We are Indian first and Hinduism cant even be considered a religion these days its just a way of life or a thought. Most hindu's don't even practise.

 

[Ali Sinan]

We are Indian first and Hinduism cant even be considered a religion

Old tantrum when Pakistani talks about religion Hindus / Indians start acting like atheists but when talk about beef then they became practicing chaadi waadi even tries to justify the killings of innocent over beef.

 

[Suff Shikan]

Indians almost bombed PAK, but we in reality downed your 2 Fighter Aircrafts.....

 

[AUz]

Oh god not this again...
we beat you in cricket , hockey just about any sport and lets not even begin to talk about the economy .. bhai tu ab rehene de..
Your Religion does not make you superior to another.
@MastanKhan still remember an old post of your , could you please enlighten this young chap?

You don't beat us in cricket. Look at the head-to-head record. Yes, right "now", you are performing better than us. Even in 2000-2010 decade, Pakistan has better head to head record vs India in cricket.

Also, sports doesn't mean much..

And economy? Both india and Pakistan's economy are in similar league with developing nation's status. You don't 'beat' us in economy...not by a long shot. In some categories, you perform better while in other categories, we perform better. Stop your day dreams of somehow you have left us behind in terms of economic development.

Both Pakistan and India are at same levels of development overall..

You do realize that we don't have actual numbers for Pakistan economy comparale to India's,,right? Pakistan's current economy is based on base-year 2000 while india's base year is 2010. Bring Pakistan's base year to 2010 and include all other new sectors, we'll easily surpass you in per capita GDP and income (already confirmed by UN multi-dimensional poverty Index 2015, showing less poverty in Pak than India). However, the "difference" is negligible so I won't say we are ahead of you because we aren't. Difference of few hundred dollars here or there is nothing...especially over the course of a year.

So stop insulting your own country..

Oh god not this again...
we beat you in cricket , hockey just about any sport and lets not even begin to talk about the economy .. bhai tu ab rehene de..
Your Religion does not make you superior to another.
@MastanKhan still remember an old post of your , could you please enlighten this young chap?

You don't beat us in cricket. Look at the head-to-head record. Yes, right "now", you are performing better than us. Even in 2000-2010 decade, Pakistan has better head to head record vs India in cricket.

Also, sports doesn't mean much..

And economy? Both india and Pakistan's economy are in similar league with developing nation's status. You don't 'beat' us in economy...not by a long shot. In some categories, you perform better while in other categories, we perform better. Stop your day dreams of somehow you have left us behind in terms of economic development.

Both Pakistan and India are at same levels of development overall..

You do realize that we don't have actual numbers for Pakistan economy comparale to India's,,right? Pakistan's current economy is based on base-year 2000 while india's base year is 2010. Bring Pakistan's base year to 2010 and include all other new sectors, we'll easily surpass you in per capita GDP and income (already confirmed by UN multi-dimensional poverty Index 2015, showing less poverty in Pak than India). However, the "difference" is negligible so I won't say we are ahead of you because we aren't. Difference of few hundred dollars here or there is nothing...especially over the course of a year.

So stop insulting your own country..

Yes, it was India that refused to accept the dead bodies of its soldiers.

Pakistani authorities have also claimed the same thing about india, for your kind information.

But this is all rhetoric..I don't care about such ghimmicks.

 

[T90TankGuy]

You don't beat us in cricket. Look at the head-to-head record. Yes, right "now", you are performing better than us. Even in 2000-2010 decade, Pakistan has better head to head record vs India in cricket.

Also, sports doesn't mean much..

And economy? Both india and Pakistan's economy are in similar league with developing nation's status. You don't 'beat' us in economy...not by a long shot. In some categories, you perform better while in other categories, we perform better. Stop your day dreams of somehow you have left us behind in terms of economic development.

Both Pakistan and India are at same levels of development overall..

You do realize that we don't have actual numbers for Pakistan economy comparale to India's,,right? Pakistan's current economy is based on base-year 2000 while india's base year is 2010. Bring Pakistan's base year to 2010 and include all other new sectors, we'll easily surpass you in per capita GDP and income (already confirmed by UN multi-dimensional poverty Index 2015, showing less poverty in Pak than India). However, the "difference" is negligible so I won't say we are ahead of you because we aren't. Difference of few hundred dollars here or there is nothing...especially over the course of a year.

So stop insulting your own country..



You don't beat us in cricket. Look at the head-to-head record. Yes, right "now", you are performing better than us. Even in 2000-2010 decade, Pakistan has better head to head record vs India in cricket.

Also, sports doesn't mean much..

And economy? Both india and Pakistan's economy are in similar league with developing nation's status. You don't 'beat' us in economy...not by a long shot. In some categories, you perform better while in other categories, we perform better. Stop your day dreams of somehow you have left us behind in terms of economic development.

Both Pakistan and India are at same levels of development overall..

You do realize that we don't have actual numbers for Pakistan economy comparale to India's,,right? Pakistan's current economy is based on base-year 2000 while india's base year is 2010. Bring Pakistan's base year to 2010 and include all other new sectors, we'll easily surpass you in per capita GDP and income (already confirmed by UN multi-dimensional poverty Index 2015, showing less poverty in Pak than India). However, the "difference" is negligible so I won't say we are ahead of you because we aren't. Difference of few hundred dollars here or there is nothing...especially over the course of a year.

So stop insulting your own country..



Pakistani authorities have also claimed the same thing about india, for your kind information.

But this is all rhetoric..I don't care about such ghimmicks.

You are right , we should be in awe of you guys . i dont know how we live with ourselves.

 

[AUz]

You are right , we should be in awe of you guys . i dont know how we live with ourselves.

Stop being an idiot and acting like a little child.

Did I say you should be in awe of us? All I said that we both are at same levels of economic development and none of us are "decisively" ahead/better than the other.

Stop your strawmen bullsh!t

 

[livingdead]

all the three services stood down during kargil... why single out IAF..... they did fly and bombed over kargil...
indian navy too did not attack PN... nor did IA cross the border..

 

[Windjammer]

Despite Indian media creating all the hype and chest thumping and going as far as awarding their pilot, the reality on the ground was a lot different. Once the IAF realised that PAF was ready to hit back and hit hard, the euphoria quickly wore off.
It's funny how the IAF perceived both Skardu and Chaklala, calling it a major airbase, which in fact is just a part of the civilian airport and only housed a transport wing.
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PAF was fully mobilised as the hostilities escalated. PAF pilots had been mobilised a year earlier under the operation code named ‘BEDAAR’. F-16 Fighting Falcons shifted into the Skardu Forward Operational Base. These F-16s had undergone Falcon Upgrades, thanks to the co’operation of Egypt and Turkey, and were prepared to take on the IAF fighters and transport aircraft thus foiling Indian attempts to drop paratroopers behind enemy lines.
A-5s from Peshawar also joined the Vipers. Rest of the Pakistan Air force was deployed as the same manner as it was in Operation Bedaar ’98.

Pakistan Air Force on Red Alert
6th June 1999: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has been put on 'red alert' due to the increasingly tense situation between Pakistan and India in the disputed territory of Jammu & Kashmir.

The PAF is now in a state of combat readiness at all times and is ready to meet any eventuality that may arise in the coming days. "We are ready for any eventuality" said a PAF officer whose name
has been withheld. "Insha'Allah, we will not disappoint the nation".

PAF air defence fighters, mainly F-7MPs, are maintaining 24 hour 'round-the-clock' Combat Air Patrols (CAPs) on the whole international border between Pakistan and India as well as on the Line
of Control (LoC) in Jammu & Kashmir. The PAF is also conducting CAPs along its coast on the Arabian Sea.

The PAF has the capability to put 200 combat aircraft in the air within a span of 15 minutes of the orders coming in to scramble", remarked a PAF officer.

The PAF's F-7MP air defence fighters are standing on the operational readiness platform (ORP) ramps of the runways in over 30 air fields of Pakistan with pilots sitting inside the cockpits ready to scramble within seconds.

In some of the PAF's forward operational bases (FOBs), PAF F-7MP air defence fighters are on 'hot scramble alert' i.e. stationed at the end of the runways, with pilots inside the cockpits and the aircraft engines running.

"The PAF is in a defensive posture but we have the capability to transform this defensive posture into an offensive one if the enemy dares to violate Pakistan's territory and airspace.", the PAF officer stated. The PAF has armed all its operational combat aircraft with armaments and equipment for their respective roles. "We do not think the Indians are foolish enough to attack Pakistan, but if they are then they will find us ready", said the PAF officer.

He did not rule out the use of the Pakistan Air Force if the Indian Army crossed the LoC in Jammu & Kashmir. "We are watching every move of theirs, our reconnaissance and surveillance aircraft are watching every move they make, if they cross the LoC they will pay a heavy price for such a misadventure".

He said it will be up to the Pakistan Army to call for air support and air strikes. "This will be the Army's decision", he said.

Asked to comment on the reports that IAF Mirage 2000s were conducting jamming operations against Pakistani radar, the PAF officer remarked "We have better jamming equipment than the Mirage 2000s which they are using. We are using electronic countermeasures to spoil their jamming attempts and we are also jamming their aircraft in return".

He said "our aircraft are conducting counter-jamming as well as jamming of IAF and Indian Army radar in Jammu & Kashmir and we have other high technology specialised aircraft for jamming, counter-jamming, airborne early warning and other electronic intelligence roles which will be activated if the need arises".

He declined to comment on unconfirmed reports that a Saudi AWACS and unknown numbers of Saudi F-15s, UAE Mirage 2000s and Chinese F-7s flown by Pakistan Air Force pilots had arrived in Pakistan. "These are rumours", he added. "Whatever we have, the enemy will find out if they attack us".

Rules Of Engagements

According to the PAF Rules of Engagement (ROE), three conditions have to be met in peacetime before an enemy aircraft can be shot down: (i) the enemy aircraft must violate Pakistan's airspace; (ii) it must be a combat aircraft and (iii) its wreckage must fall inside Pakistani territory. 'Peacetime' in the context of India and Pakistan means when no war has been declared.

PAF Engages Indian Air Force
9 July 1999

ISLAMABAD: In what was a classic pre-dawn interception, air defence interceptors of the Pakistan Air Force, comprising of two PAF F-7MP fighter jets, intercepted and engaged intruding Indian Air Force (IAF) fighter jets which crossed the Line of Control in Jammu & Kashmir and violated Pakistan's airspace by several kilometres. The IAF fighters were believed to be two MiG-27ML ground-attack aircraft and two Mirage 2000H fighters providng top cover. The event took place in the early hours of Thursday, 8 July 1999, at approximately 2:30 a.m. (0230 hours) PST.

According to sources, PAF F-7MP fighters were supported by two F-16 Fighting Falcons providing back-up which conducted electronic jamming of the intruder IAF 'bandits'. The F-16s were scrambled whereas the F-7MPs were already on Combat Air Patrol (CAP) duty when the incursion occured.

The PAF F-7MP air defence interceptors were immediately vectored by GCI towards the intruding 'bandits' within seconds of their crossing into Pakistan airspace. The PAF fighters intercepted the Indian fighters and 'locked' on them with their missiles. In fighter terms, this is an invitation for a dogfight. However, the IAF fighters refused to engage in return and instead fled straight back into the airspace of Indian-held Kashmir in what PAF pilots perceived was sheer panic. "It was not a very orderly or dignified exit", remarked a PAF officer.

According to PAF sources, even the Dynamic Launch Zone (DLZ) perimetres had been met for launching of the air-to-air missiles which means that the PAF pilots had got the AAM tone indicating the bandits were well within shoot-down range of the PAF fighters. A missile tone is achieved when the missile's infrared heat-seeker or its radar has picked up the hostile aircraft. "It looks as if we gave them a fright", says a PAF officer, "Their RWR signal would have been blasting off in the cockpits as our interceptors tracked them". If the missiles were short-range heat-seeking missiles, then this would imply that the distance between the PAF and the IAF fighters was less than 10 kilometres - "Too close for comfort", as the PAF officer remarked.

PAF fighters did not shoot down the Indian fighters even though they were within range of the air-to-air missiles of the PAF fighters. The Indian fighters were perilously close to the Line of Control and their wreckage may have fallen inside Indian-held Kashmir territory which, going by their track record, would have given the Indian authorities the opportunity to blame the PAF for the intrusion.

According to the PAF Rules of Engagement (ROE), three conditions have to be met in peacetime before an enemy aircraft can be shot down: (i) the enemy aircraft must violate Pakistan's airspace; (ii) it must be a combat aircraft and (iii) its wreckage must fall inside Pakistani territory. 'Peacetime' in the context of India and Pakistan means when no war has been declared.

In this instance, the third criterion may not have been met as the IAF fighters were too close to the LoC and their wreckage may have fallen on either side of the LoC.

"All the intruder Indian fighters fled when our our air defence fighters locked on them", said a PAF officer.


A second intrusion occured seven and a half hours later, at approximately 10:00 a.m. (1000 hours) PST, when two IAF fighter jets violated Pakistan's airspace in the Mushkoh-Olding sector in Jammu & Kashmir. Two F-7MPs were immediately scrambled from a forward PAF air base to intercept the two intruders. However, the IAF jets sensing the PAF fighters fast approaching them, turned back and fled into Indian-held Kashmir before the PAF interceptors could get a missile lock-on them.

In both cases, the IAF intruders had taken off from Srinagar air base, according to PAF GCI controllers.

It is pertinent to mention here that earlier this year, on 27 May 1999, two intruder Indian Air Force MiGs - a MiG-27ML and a MiG-21bis - were shot down by the Air Defence Command of the Pakistan Army using Anza-II SAMs after the IAF jets had violated Pakistan's airspace in the Jammu & Kashmir region. The wreckage of both the Indian aircraft fell 10-12 kilometres inside Pakistani territory near Hamzi Ghund. One Indian pilot, Flt. Lt. K. Nachiketa, was captured whereas the other pilot, Sqn. Ldr. Ajay Ahuja, was killed. Sqn. Ldr. Ahuja's body was returned to India with full military honours and Flt. Lt. Nachiketa was released shortly afterwards.

IAF Mirage-2000 aircraft attempted a lock-on at a PAF F-16A. The PAF F-16 immediately dropped down from 20,000 ft to hardly 500 ft over the terrain and deployed a cloud of chaff. His A/A radar went in standby mode. The Mirage pilot thought that the F-16 had ran away when the F-16 tried to close in on him using the cover of the mountains and valleys.
The F-16 closed in on the Mirage but at 15 nm distance the Mirage pilot again tracked the Viper closing in fast. Equipped with only two Magic-2s, the Mirage pilot banked sharply increasing the range to 20 nm and disengaged with full afterburners.
Fulcrum buzzing Falcon.....Fat Chance
F/L Gaurav Chibber incident - The true story
Armed with four AA-10 and two Magic-2 [or probably AA-11] missiles, Gaurav Chibber a MiG-29 pilot acquired a lock on at two PAF F-16As orbiting over Skardu. The F-16s at once repeated their drill of engine to idle thrust, deploying a cloud of chaff and dropping down from 20,000ft to 500ft AGL with AA Radar on standby mode. Gaurav Chibber must have had a wry smile on his face under his helmet when he lost the lock-on. Angry with the avionics Gaurav again searched for the Vipers when he felt that the avionics of his aircraft had jammed. Gaurav tried all methods and probably had his A/A Radar functional again when he saw no sign of any aircraft in his radar. He felt something suspicious and decided to move out. As he started his way back to the base he saw two tracks appearing suddenly on his A/A Radar from behind. He quickly took evasive action but was relieved that he is well inside his territory and the tracks turned back in Pakistan.
As fate would have it, F/L Gaurav Chibber met his end when the Mig-29 ,he was flying crashed in Bilaspur distric of Himachal Pardesh on August 6, 1999.

At first IAF tried to use military helicopters and conventional aircraft as the Canberra bombers and MiG-21/27 combination. The MiG-21 Bis was inferior than PAF’s F-7MPs and the MiG-27 did not had an A/A radar and was a dedicated ground attack aircraft. When IAF lost some aircraft and helicopters in the earlier days of their campaign they brought in Mirage-2000 and MiG-29 combination.
IAF used PGMs and Laser Guided Bombs from very high altitudes to avoid Stinger SAMs and small arms fire. IAF conducted these attacks with professionalism due to two reasons:
1/- They had no aerial opposition in that region and they knew that PAF will not engage them till they cross the international boundary line.
2/- Their was no threat of medium and high altitude SAMs or jamming systems.

Lessons learnt by PAF
PAF after the conflict learned that:
1/- PAF was lacking BVR capability. A commission was set up and F-16 aircraft conducted live tests of AIM-7F missiles. Chinese version of AIM-7 was also tested but was turned down. South African DARTER series of missiles was approached and successful negotiations took place for the armament for PAF ROSE-II Mirages.
2/- PAF decided to equip all aircraft with all aspect close combat missiles and gradually modified all aircraft to carry AIM-9L and Magic-II all aspect short range missiles.
3/- PAF showed interest in Chinese FT-2000A system which was looked at with suspicion by India that Pakistan might have inducted this system, which in fact is still suspected today.

PAF learnt it lessons well and due to that PAF responded well in the 8 month long OPERATION SENTINEL.

 

[Sneaker]

Pakistan shot down armed aerial vehicles that dared to cross our borders--not by mistake--but in a war theatre.

india shot down an unarmed, big aeroplane with trainees on it.

Shows the caliber and standard of both forces..

One force showed martial disciple and took on military threats head on---while the other force backstabbed by taking a shot at an unarmed trainee filled airplane.

No wonder hindus, being inferior, were ruled by dominant, martial Muslims for thousand year.

Except that pakistan crossed borders first and IAF had to cross borders o bomb them while PAF played a moot spectator.. Had pakistan not occupied vacant posts of IA, nothing would have happened.. 4000 pakistani casualties and 2000 odd Indian one would have been avoided..

 

[AUz]

Except that pakistan crossed borders first and IAF had to cross borders o bomb them while PAF played a moot spectator.. Had pakistan not occupied vacant posts of IA, nothing would have happened.. 4000 pakistani casualties and 2000 odd Indian one would have been avoided..

IAF couldn't "cross border" and bomb anything. I tried to cross borders..and was humiliated when our forces shot em down..They never crossed borders again LOL.

Btw, 4000 Pakistani casualty figure is a myth. A lot more indians were killed than Pakistanis in Kargil operation. This has been proven to be true by many senior (including Indian) members here.

I won't spoon feed you again. Move on.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Yea, with no aircraft capable of BVR with PAF, along with SAM's only near its airbases, IAF was mightily afraid.

IAF didnt engage only because it was asked not to. We are not a banana country where anyone can do coups, take law onto their own lands etc. Everything has checks and balances.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Pakistan shot down armed aerial vehicles that dared to cross our borders--not by mistake--but in a war theatre.

india shot down an unarmed, big aeroplane with trainees on it.

Shows the caliber and standard of both forces..

One force showed martial disciple and took on military threats head on---while the other force backstabbed by taking a shot at an unarmed trainee filled airplane.

No wonder hindus, being inferior, were ruled by dominant, martial Muslims for thousand year.

Agreed all with 4 sentences except 5th one

Crazy people keep dragging religion in to everything. Have you ever seen an Indian dragging religion in to everything why ? because we don't give a damn for the religion. We are Indian first and Hinduism cant even be considered a religion these days its just a way of life or a thought. Most hindu's don't even practise.

I apologize 4 that

 

[illusion8]

Yea, with no aircraft capable of BVR with PAF, along with SAM's only near its airbases, IAF was mightily afraid.

IAF didnt engage only because it was asked not to. We are not a banana country where anyone can do coups, take law onto their own lands etc. Everything has checks and balances.

With 1100 sorties in 4 months how the hell was IAF standing down.

PAF with its non bvr junkie's and critically short of spares were sitting ducks.

As for why didn't IAF cross the border..They did multiple incursions. ..If I remember it right ...Pakistan recorded IAF incursions in the hundreds, but then. .that could be attributed to the shape of the LOC when jets fly close to the border...They do tend to cross over and return multiple times.

The US was determined in their hunt for bin laden and they were extra active in trying to cut down the war. Which forced Pakistanis to call for cease fire.

 

[Pakistan First]

Simple answer: they didn't have the balls. And still don't.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Decimation is bearable as it implies 90% will be unaffected. You should be worried about extinction.

Best Regards

One day that will be inevitable.

I assure you. The ball has started rolling. There are people who love to live. And then there are those who LOVE to die. How do you defeat them?