What is SAP? and what certification to start with for a newbie in the field?

[desiman]

What higher knowledge requirement? Give me a CS guy who can do the Penetration Testing with his huge knowledge of Maths?You might creat a specific tool with your deep CS/Math/Algo knowledge but we are the one who use many of these tools in same time and figure out how to coordinate with the so that output of one tool can be fed into another.if CS guys are that champion why dont they creat any thing that make IT guys useless.You might creat an Ferrai but we are the one who drive it to win the race.Its only the driver who knows when to put the foot on accel. And when to turn the stearing while wathing the road and speedometer , tell the mechenical engineer at the Ferrari to do this?
You may creat a mindblowing securitty algo but when it starts to suck up processer and memory then we the IT guys who decide to kill some processes to save the device from being crashed.Try to apply your algorithm here.How many of them can be created for all the new problmes that comes after every few hours.

In a nutshel I say IT starts where CS ends

Nice way of putting it

 

[Mrityunjay Rai]

Nice way of putting it

Sir ji still unable to convince CEOs and CIOs hehe.(off topic) I started my career in when I wa studying in 6th cl a ss with learning C. I am now 21 year old and rate my self not more than 4 out of 10 but it hurt me when some one with no or very very little knowledge in IT ends up being CEO,PM etc. They will tell you to bring any engg. Degree to get the jo b but dont bother about knowledge at all because they dont have that. It did hurt me so much that I decided to leave the field altogather and now preparing for Civil Services and other Govt Jobs That is the one of sadest parts of IT.

 

[desiman]

Sir ji still unable to convince CEOs and CIOs hehe.(off topic) I started my career in when I wa studying in 6th cl a ss with learning C. I am now 21 year old and rate my self not more than 4 out of 10 but it hurt me when some one with no or very very little knowledge in IT ends up being CEO,PM etc. They will tell you to bring any engg. Degree to get the jo b but dont bother about knowledge at all because they dont have that. It did hurt me so much that I decided to leave the field altogather and now preparing for Civil Services and other Govt Jobs That is the one of sadest parts of IT.

well the thinking has vastly changed in the last 5 years. You must understand as the baby boomer's retire the opportunities grow and more value is placed on prior education. So dont loose hope and keep on trying, your still only 21, long way to go buddy. IT is a very rewarding career, you just have to stick it out a bit.

 

[Mrityunjay Rai]

well the thinking has vastly changed in the last 5 years. You must understand as the baby boomer's retire the opportunities grow and more value is placed on prior education. So dont loose hope and keep on trying, your still only 21, long way to go buddy. IT is a very rewarding career, you just have to stick it out a bit.

hm.... Lets hope for best but i am preparing for worst now

 

[desiman]

hm.... Lets hope for best but i am preparing for worst now

stay happy, be positive

 

[Mrityunjay Rai]

stay happy, be positive

Thanks will try to find my place again in IT

 

[Pakistani_Athiest]

What higher knowledge requirement? Give me a CS guy who can do the Penetration Testing with his huge knowledge of Maths?You might creat a specific tool with your deep CS/Math/Algo knowledge but we are the one who use many of these tools in same time and figure out how to coordinate with the so that output of one tool can be fed into another.if CS guys are that champion why dont they creat any thing that make IT guys useless.You might creat an Ferrari but we are the one who drive it to win the race.Its only the driver who knows when to put the foot on accel. And when to turn the stearing wheel, wathing the road and speedometer , tell the mechenical engineer at the Ferrari to do this?
You may creat a mindblowing security algo but when it starts to suck up processer and memory then we the IT guys who decide to kill some processes to save the device from being crashed.Try to apply your algorithm here.How many of them can be created for all the new problmes that comes after every few hours.

In a nutshel I say IT starts where CS ends

No. That's not how it works. We create the security algo, we implement it. We are the ones that optimize it. You guys just get the credit. Ferrari driving? Don't compare that with IT. No one can fake experience for even a second in a race-car driving circuit. But, people get by for years in IT without being caught faking experience (Mechanical and Chemical guys).

I wonder the source of your pride, when a guy [fortune-500/100 or otherwise] can get into a company claiming the same amount of experience as you have. In CS that can never happen. In Cricket that can never happen. In weightlifting that can never happen. And these are the three things I care about a lot =D.

Good luck with your IT. If it makes you feel proud =D

 

[indian_warrior]

I am working in software industry for over 10 years. Here is my experience on CS and IT.

Both are challenging.

IT comes with experience and there is lot of scope for development. Remember world is changing continuously so as the requirements and need. There is always demand for IT jobs and new applications. In terms of job security and salary IT jobs has upper hand then CS.

Pakistan_Athist: Where do you draw the line between CS and IT. Per you IT is implementation and CS is system design. That is not the case.

 

[Pakistani_Athiest]

I am working in software industry for over 10 years. Here is my experience on CS and IT.

Both are challenging.

IT comes with experience and there is lot of scope for development. Remember world is changing continuously so as the requirements and need. There is always demand for IT jobs and new applications. In terms of job security and salary IT jobs has upper hand then CS.

Pakistan_Athist: Where do you draw the line between CS and IT. Per you IT is implementation and CS is system design. That is not the case.

No, I never said CS is about design and IT is about implementation. The difference, on paper, is very subtle. The difference, in real world, is very evident.

Usually, when we talk about IT. we think in terms of 'applying' computer products/tools to create solutions. For instance, someone creates java, the classes, the methods. If you take that package and use it. You are into IT. But the actual process of creating Java and those classes that you are using is CS. But here is the catch.

1) An extremely proficient IT developer might find the language/tool lacking. He can create a module, from scratch and use it. That is not IT, that's CS.

2) Likewise, a new method is created for a new version of Java. But what about testing? What about other aspects? That's all IT.

So as you can see, THERE is overlap.

That's one aspect of CS for you.

Another aspect of CS. Is your end product a real world application? or is it a paradigm/principle or generalizable information. Creating a program to factorize a number. There is no direct application to that. BUT, security systems will use your algorithm. That is, you use your theoretical knowledge to create a path. That is, Computer Science.

The best way to look at it the 'top-down' vs 'bottoms-up' approach. Are you using stuff that you don't really understand? Then your work is more IT. For instance, you use a class. Can you write the class yourself? Or are you applying someone else's technology.

It's the same difference between a script-kiddie and a hacker. A hacker finds solutions for what he sees as problems. In the process, he may or may not create a tool. Whereas a script-kiddie, sees a problems, searches for a tool that do the work for him and apply it there.

For instance, I want to capture the keystrokes made in a computer, and if a specific pattern of keys are struck, a notification has to be sent to the admin at the end of the day.

The IT guy:
1) Need a keylogger. I don't know how it works, all I care is I know what it needs and what it outputs.
2) Need a scheduler. At a specific time, the keystroke file is opened for parsing.
3) Need a parser, I need to check for specific patterns
4) Need an SMTP/teller script. Need to throw the output to the server.

Now, the IT guy does not really know how to write the keylogger, scheduler, parser or the teller script. But he knows they exist, he uses them and designs the solution.

But who designs those tools for you? Substitute keylogger with Java, substitute scheduler with Eclipse, parser with Oracle and teller with perl. There you go! You have an IT developer using tools he never really designed, is merely familiar with, but them for developing solutions.

Is that bad? No. To drive a car, one does not need to know to make it. To use a juicer, to ride an airplane, to operate a cell-phone, none of this require you to understand the inner mechanisms. THAT IS FINE! But, note another similarity, no one says that "the guy who uses the cell-phone" is as smart as "the guy who made the cellphone".

Only the IT professionals claim that. And really, IT does not require all that brains, at least at the low level. [Higher end IT does require brains, just like how Coultard was a skilled McLaren driver]. And do I have evidence that IT does not require as much skill? Yes. Or else people with electronics, electrical and whatever background won't be able to get into it! People won't be able to fake experience ANYWHERE for EVEN a day.

This reminds me of an analogy from the 70s. In the 70s, we had Stenographers and we had typists. Typists just knew how to use the machine. They made a living of that. Because backspace wasn't there, copier wasn't popular. But as copying became cheap, as electronic typewriters and later computers came in place, these people lost their jobs. No longer was the ability to type good enough to get you a job. But the stenographers, who could not only type but also speak fluently got a boost!

Likewise, in the 1700s, writing and reading wasn't VERY common in Europe. Therefore, even if you wrote a GREAT book, no one would appreciate that and buy it. But, if you can simply read and write, even in bad grammar, you still had a job, that of a scribe. Later, when writing and reading became common skills, scribes lost their jobs! But the market for good literature expanded. Today, the richest lady in UK is JK Rowling. That's because everyone is literate enough to read her works.

Now, what about IT? If IT tools become easy [they are easier today than before!] and if IT becomes common-place knowledge - why would someone hire an IT guy to use a tool that a CS guy makes? Of course, you process gurus will still be in place for the most part - like the stenographers.

 

[Pakistani_Athiest]

which IT are you talking about ??????? try to get into SAP, Oracle or Accenture with no consultancy experience and just CS knowledge, they will laugh at you lol

I've worked at Oracle. Crappy work. I've actually worked on some modules of JDeveloper [As in creating JDeveloper not coding on it]. Crappy, annoying work, I would have enjoyed that if I did not understand computers so well or if I just wanted a good pay rather than good pay and challenging job. The developers under me mostly managed with ctrl+c and ctrl+v! Yeah, that's serious business eh?

 

[Mrityunjay Rai]

No. That's not how it works. We create the security algo, we implement it. We are the ones that optimize it. You guys just get the credit. Ferrari driving? Don't compare that with IT. No one can fake experience for even a second in a race-car driving circuit. But, people get by for years in IT without being caught faking experience (Mechanical and Chemical guys).

I wonder the source of your pride, when a guy [fortune-500/100 or otherwise] can get into a company claiming the same amount of experience as you have. In CS that can never happen. In Cricket that can never happen. In weightlifting that can never happen. And these are the three things I care about a lot =D.

Good luck with your IT. If it makes you feel proud =D

I know lots of faking being done in IT. By your logic suppose some one by hook and crook manage to get the place in cricket team he dosenot play good cricket but still remain in the team(as you said that lots of IT guys still maintain their jobs even with fake exp.) because team is performing well or may be coach or manager is godfather .It happens in every field wheter electricla, machenical or weightlifling.You just need strong l uck to remain there.

Now comming on IT and CS , you can not creat a tool for every situation simply no , not in far future.This is where IT begains.Use the avl tools to creat a solution. You created Java , C , C++ but why not created a language with all featurs even after so many years why there are so many genarl purpose languages , just because one can do better something than other.Now IT starts , we will choose C for back end Java for front end and make a solution.

Again where CS ends IT begains.

And by th e way I am not very proud of being a IT guy read my above post

 

[Mrityunjay Rai]

Now, what about IT? If IT tools become easy [they are easier today than before!] and if IT becomes common-place knowledge - why would someone hire an IT guy to use a tool that a CS guy makes? Of course, you process gurus will still be in place for the most part - like the stenographers.

IT tools bacame very easy now days think about DOS to Windows , C to VC++.ok then IT guys should be lost tribe from earth but th e truth is opposit because every new day bring a new problme and no one can wait for CS guys to develop the new tool for that.CS can never come with that pace .Now IT is left with its own twiking to LET THE MUSIC PLAY. The day will be never come when we will have a tool for every problme because problmes come at very fast speed
Simple logic

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

I see that this has turned into a major thread and even for a noob like myslef, I am finding it very interesting! Also seems like good info is being exchanged!
My thanks to many members here, esp ones from India who helped me with some ideas/ suggestion via Pm!

It turns out the dude down the street is preping for his tests in SAP & he has previous IT experience. He is actually from India & I ll go see him over the weekend!

 

[desiman]

No, I never said CS is about design and IT is about implementation. The difference, on paper, is very subtle. The difference, in real world, is very evident.

Usually, when we talk about IT. we think in terms of 'applying' computer products/tools to create solutions. For instance, someone creates java, the classes, the methods. If you take that package and use it. You are into IT. But the actual process of creating Java and those classes that you are using is CS. But here is the catch.

1) An extremely proficient IT developer might find the language/tool lacking. He can create a module, from scratch and use it. That is not IT, that's CS.

2) Likewise, a new method is created for a new version of Java. But what about testing? What about other aspects? That's all IT.

So as you can see, THERE is overlap.

That's one aspect of CS for you.

Another aspect of CS. Is your end product a real world application? or is it a paradigm/principle or generalizable information. Creating a program to factorize a number. There is no direct application to that. BUT, security systems will use your algorithm. That is, you use your theoretical knowledge to create a path. That is, Computer Science.

The best way to look at it the 'top-down' vs 'bottoms-up' approach. Are you using stuff that you don't really understand? Then your work is more IT. For instance, you use a class. Can you write the class yourself? Or are you applying someone else's technology.

It's the same difference between a script-kiddie and a hacker. A hacker finds solutions for what he sees as problems. In the process, he may or may not create a tool. Whereas a script-kiddie, sees a problems, searches for a tool that do the work for him and apply it there.

For instance, I want to capture the keystrokes made in a computer, and if a specific pattern of keys are struck, a notification has to be sent to the admin at the end of the day.

The IT guy:
1) Need a keylogger. I don't know how it works, all I care is I know what it needs and what it outputs.
2) Need a scheduler. At a specific time, the keystroke file is opened for parsing.
3) Need a parser, I need to check for specific patterns
4) Need an SMTP/teller script. Need to throw the output to the server.

Now, the IT guy does not really know how to write the keylogger, scheduler, parser or the teller script. But he knows they exist, he uses them and designs the solution.

But who designs those tools for you? Substitute keylogger with Java, substitute scheduler with Eclipse, parser with Oracle and teller with perl. There you go! You have an IT developer using tools he never really designed, is merely familiar with, but them for developing solutions.

Is that bad? No. To drive a car, one does not need to know to make it. To use a juicer, to ride an airplane, to operate a cell-phone, none of this require you to understand the inner mechanisms. THAT IS FINE! But, note another similarity, no one says that "the guy who uses the cell-phone" is as smart as "the guy who made the cellphone".

Only the IT professionals claim that. And really, IT does not require all that brains, at least at the low level. [Higher end IT does require brains, just like how Coultard was a skilled McLaren driver]. And do I have evidence that IT does not require as much skill? Yes. Or else people with electronics, electrical and whatever background won't be able to get into it! People won't be able to fake experience ANYWHERE for EVEN a day.

This reminds me of an analogy from the 70s. In the 70s, we had Stenographers and we had typists. Typists just knew how to use the machine. They made a living of that. Because backspace wasn't there, copier wasn't popular. But as copying became cheap, as electronic typewriters and later computers came in place, these people lost their jobs. No longer was the ability to type good enough to get you a job. But the stenographers, who could not only type but also speak fluently got a boost!

Likewise, in the 1700s, writing and reading wasn't VERY common in Europe. Therefore, even if you wrote a GREAT book, no one would appreciate that and buy it. But, if you can simply read and write, even in bad grammar, you still had a job, that of a scribe. Later, when writing and reading became common skills, scribes lost their jobs! But the market for good literature expanded. Today, the richest lady in UK is JK Rowling. That's because everyone is literate enough to read her works.

Now, what about IT? If IT tools become easy [they are easier today than before!] and if IT becomes common-place knowledge - why would someone hire an IT guy to use a tool that a CS guy makes? Of course, you process gurus will still be in place for the most part - like the stenographers.

All your questions have been answered in post above and again you generalize and are too vague in your post. I dont want to argue with you on the value of IT as frankly you have no idea what the industry is. IT is one of the biggest industries in the market and its a fact that CS guys will always work under consultants as without consultants, CS guys tend to go off track as seen on this thread also. Its not about easy or tough, its about who controls what. CS guys are highly technical and are yes smarter than the average bunch but their knowledge of business applications and basic business operations is nothing but non-existent. IT professional summarize the whole department and form the key link between upper management and the workforce. CS guys can be replaced without notice and are quite easy to find, but a experienced team lead or consultant is gold to the company which is obvious from the pay packages they get. You know what we call all the CS guys and software guys at our company, lol Mine workers bcz half the time they are in front of a computer or trying to get projects approved from their managers. Your whole argument is flawed as your comparing two different industries. gosh you need a consultant standing on your head right now lol

 

[Pakistani_Athiest]

All your questions have been answered in post above and again you generalize and are too vague in your post. I dont want to argue with you on the value of IT as frankly you have no idea what the industry is. IT is one of the biggest industries in the market and its a fact that CS guys will always work under consultants as without consultants, CS guys tend to go off track as seen on this thread also. Its not about easy or tough, its about who controls what. CS guys are highly technical and are yes smarter than the average bunch but their knowledge of business applications and basic business operations is nothing but non-existent. IT professional summarize the whole department and form the key link between upper management and the workforce. CS guys can be replaced without notice and are quite easy to find, but a experienced team lead or consultant is gold to the company which is obvious from the pay packages they get. You know what we call all the CS guys and software guys at our company, lol Mine workers bcz half the time they are in front of a computer or trying to get projects approved from their managers. Your whole argument is flawed as your comparing two different industries. gosh you need a consultant standing on your head right now lol

You keep saying CS guys are easy to replace, and that just makes me laugh so hard. That's what happens when you work in a totally non-technical environment for EONS. You need to stop working on shitty SCM and get into SOME REAL HARDCORE stuff. Goto Blizzard and tell them "it's easy to replace CS people". Or Microsoft. Or Sun (Now Oracle). Before you finish that statement, you will find yourself replaced.

Yes Sir. IT requires skill. That's why we have people from mechanical/chemical/electrical/electronics enter this field. And we have many people faking their experience and still doing fine. That only shows how hard this field is