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What is SAP? and what certification to start with for a newbie in the field?

What is Engineering Math 3 and 4 never heared about that. Have you done your degree from out of India
I have gone through IIT Kanpur's CS course sylabus and dose not find any thing very advance in tearm of mathematics (IT guys)

There was EM-3 and EM-4 respectively in our 3rd and 4th semester. You will find details about EM-3 and EM-4 here.... both on page number 2 and 3...

http://www.pes.edu/Program/Inst1/Menu/downloads/PESIT-CS-Aug-2007-3sem.pdf

http://www.pes.edu/Program/Inst1/Menu/downloads/CS-4th_Semcourseinfo.pdf

but yes CS guys have 50 perc more math than us

Yes. The main difference between CSE and IT: CSE is lot more technical and development oriented while IT focuses more on applications.
 
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hey, i was just wondering how students studies math in India high schools? like what kind of math is their?

well it must be same, but the way they teach?

i was wondering to order some high school math books from India!
 
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hey, i was just wondering how students studies math in India high schools? like what kind of math is their?

well it must be same, but the way they teach?

i was wondering to order some high school math books from India!

Define high school if its Xth grade then its just Linear Algera, Mensuration (Volume and Area), Geometry (theorem proving), Basic trignometry and related Stuff

If it's XIth and XtIth grade then its Differentiation, Integration, Trignometry advance such as sin(x+y) formulae, then Engineering mechanics stuff
 
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hey, i was just wondering how students studies math in India high schools? like what kind of math is their?

well it must be same, but the way they teach?

i was wondering to order some high school math books from India!

Donno about Math in India, but Math in US is ******** garbage.
 
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hey, i was just wondering how students studies math in India high schools? like what kind of math is their?

well it must be same, but the way they teach?

i was wondering to order some high school math books from India!

In 12th class (eq to High School in US I think) we have studied (I did it through U.P. State board) 6 subjects of maths.
1-Algebra
2-Trigno.
3-Calculus
4-Co Ordinate
5-Statics (A part of machenics)
6-Dynamics(again machenics)
 
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For salary considerations, CS and IT are clubbed in most statistics. And CS guys aren't easy to get rid of (I don't know what you are talking about). CS guys aren't even employed by most companies. A CS guy works on a security algorithm, kernel for a new operating system, engine for a new game etc. IT guys works on Banking Applications, Insurance applications etc. Obviously, job security is greater in the former. Most CS guys DON'T work as consultants, it's the IT guys that work as consultants. CS guys are considered assets and are kept by companies like Microsoft and Google. I am not that good with my CS, but while Wellmark was firing FTEs and Consultants doing their IT jobs, they did not fire one guy from my department, we work on UX, DM etc.

I am talking of 25-28 year old people. Dude, IT does not involve thinking. I started in IT. There is not much of problem solving. And the people in CS get paid WAY WAY more (i don't know wtf you are talking about). Makers of algorithms get patents that earn millions+. You don't have many serious patents in IT. (I laugh at IT patents)

About IT vs CS and which is harder? I can put an IT guy in my gf's project, and that guy will probably die in shame (due to his inability to find a solution). For instance, I can give you the current algorithm and ask you to improvise. If you think this is easy, take something as simple as Sudoku, understand the current algo and work on improvising that. In companies like Blizzard, you could be asked to make certain aspects of the game less graphics oriented and more processor oriented. Do you think that's easy?

On the other hand most "enterprise IT" work is about figuring out how to get things done. Understanding classes, methods, processes, tools etc. Working on CRM solution or a banking application is a joke when compared with balancing solutions, crunch computing, np non-complete problems etc.

I'll argue further on this when you can either

a) give me algo for a chess engine
b) give me an algo that solves sudoku for SURE.

Simple enough problems? Now, get to work =P


I think we are losing sight of the major point here. Its not about whats harder or easier, its about different job functions. CS guys cant just jump into the shoes of IT consultant and same applies to the IT guy. Its like saying that tomorrow Doctor are supposed to know what engineers do. These are two varied fields with different set of opportunities. In terms of complications I can also give you complex business problems that need to be sorted out by IT personnel in a firm. Keep in mind unlike CS where there is room for error, the room for error for IT professionals is minimal. In terms of pay I really dont know what you talking about , i have worked in this industry long enough to know that only 5-10 out of 100 CS professionals will ever make it to the pay scale your talking about. Just the abundance of CS grads is a huge negative factor and because unlike IT, CS is more process based, job security is normally low. What one CS guy can do, 10 more around the block can also. Its one of the only fields thats tends to now grow with experience, young mind and idea are more encouraged in this field. Not saying that experience does not matter and is not valued, but CS professionals can be replaced easily compared to other fields.

For IT guys, specially the ones dealing in consultancy, if a project lead or a major project hand was to walk out of the job tomorrow, it would dent the project a lot. As most info for IT guys is learned through hands on experience, knowledge is in their brains and thats what they are highly valued for. You really dont have to see far to acknowledge the fact that pure IT grads find it much easier to get a job in their fields and have a higher starting salary. CS guys major disadvantage is that 90% of the time they are not hired by the company but outsourced which makes them disposable assets where a senior consultant is like gold in the company. I currently work with Textron and my boss is the head of the SCM side of things. We have a couple of CS guys that come and go, but if anyone of the SCM guys walks out tomo, the company is basically screwed. The complexity of the job is not what defines your importance, its the function of your position that does. Dude you are so so wrong when you say that IT does not involve thinking, IT is all about thinking and problem solving which is not everybody cake where on the other side CS is quite process and book based. CS guys do what the IT guts request, without IT consultants working for you, CS guys might as well go home and solve their algorithms. No offence but i dont take your criticism of IT professionals very kindly when you have no idea what we do. CS is not easy but that does not mean IT is also, different jobs different requirements.
 
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I think we are losing sight of the major point here. Its not about whats harder or easier, its about different job functions. CS guys cant just jump into the shoes of IT consultant and same applies to the IT guy. Its like saying that tomorrow Doctor are supposed to know what engineers do. These are two varied fields with different set of opportunities. In terms of complications I can also give you complex business problems that need to be sorted out by IT personnel in a firm. Keep in mind unlike CS where there is room for error, the room for error for IT professionals is minimal. In terms of pay I really dont know what you talking about , i have worked in this industry long enough to know that only 5-10 out of 100 CS professionals will ever make it to the pay scale your talking about. Just the abundance of CS grads is a huge negative factor and because unlike IT, CS is more process based, job security is normally low. What one CS guy can do, 10 more around the block can also. Its one of the only fields thats tends to now grow with experience, young mind and idea are more encouraged in this field. Not saying that experience does not matter and is not valued, but CS professionals can be replaced easily compared to other fields.

For IT guys, specially the ones dealing in consultancy, if a project lead or a major project hand was to walk out of the job tomorrow, it would dent the project a lot. As most info for IT guys is learned through hands on experience, knowledge is in their brains and thats what they are highly valued for. You really dont have to see far to acknowledge the fact that pure IT grads find it much easier to get a job in their fields and have a higher starting salary. CS guys major disadvantage is that 90% of the time they are not hired by the company but outsourced which makes them disposable assets where a senior consultant is like gold in the company. I currently work with Textron and my boss is the head of the SCM side of things. We have a couple of CS guys that come and go, but if anyone of the SCM guys walks out tomo, the company is basically screwed. The complexity of the job is not what defines your importance, its the function of your position that does. Dude you are so so wrong when you say that IT does not involve thinking, IT is all about thinking and problem solving which is not everybody cake where on the other side CS is quite process and book based. CS guys do what the IT guts request, without IT consultants working for you, CS guys might as well go home and solve their algorithms. No offence but i dont take your criticism of IT professionals very kindly when you have no idea what we do. CS is not easy but that does not mean IT is also, different jobs different requirements.

Okay, for starters I have a VERY good idea as to what IT people do, I started out as an IT professional myself.

So basically, all jobs are EQUALLY challenging? Wish the world were so ideal.

One simple evidence that IT is easier than CS. People who don't have a lot of computer background, they get into IT and they do well. People who don't have a lot of Mathematics background simply cannot do CS. That's right. It's like trying to lift a truck. You can try all day, but you cannot solve one REAL CS problem without a good mathematical/logical background. It's not doable. End of story. I've seen people sit at work all day frantically researching, but terribly underperforming in Computer Science.

Whereas, in IT that never happened. Anyone who was taught the basics of the tool can handle IT.

CS guys major disadvantage is that 90% of the time they are not hired by the company but outsourced which makes them disposable assets where a senior consultant is like gold in the company.

What is this non-sense that you sprout? Do you even know what CS is? CS people are those guys who develop your eclipse. They are the one that developed your kernel. They are the ones that created SAP (which you use).

Just the abundance of CS grads is a huge negative factor and because unlike IT, CS is more process based, job security is normally low.


CS is process based? LOL? Are you kidding me? SDLC isn't even applicable to CS. It's the IT folks that brought all this shitty *** process into the field.
 
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Simple thing dude. Tell me what function of IT should I perform in? Networking? SAP (I don't know very well), Java?(know really well), Informatica(Know quite well). Which aspect?

Like I said before, google for a sudoku algorithm, understand it completely, improve it and get back to me.

Yes, a lot of 'CS grads' don't get paid well, only because they aren't willing to put serious efforts to gather their Math and Logic skills up and work on serious problems. CS is highly theoretical, mastering it requires a LOT of practice.
 
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Guys,

being a CS guy, I can add my 2 cents, IT basically has to do with using computer tool(software) to accomplish automation of products such as HR work using HRM software such as peoplesoft, making databases using oracle or to some extent web dev using tools such as Drupal, Dreamweaver etc. What a CS guy love to do is to make such automation software SAP, Oracle these require knowledge of Concurrency control, Parallel programming using User Level/Kernel level threads, knowledge of Compilers and tools such as ANTRL so that one can make custom languages for business needs. Then comes algorithms using suitable algorithms so that software/ automation tools don't take forever to load. Making device driver for a product. Then comes resource handling and management in the form of GC. The dream job of CS guy is doing dirty work/ low level stuff to make life easier for people(IT) who work on those tools but yes getting this kind of job is not easy.

CS guy jobs -> SDE, RSDE, SDET, to some extent White box tester.

IT guy jobs-> Certified SAP, Oracle, Peoplesoft, web dev, QA tester using automation tools and black box tester
 
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@Desiguy
I've a question for you. What's a CS guy doing in your company?

I mean from a CS perspective there isn't anything to work on in an SCM place. What algorithm to improve? What computation to resolve? It's like expecting a real scientist to work in the accounts department. There simply isn't much to do for a scientist. If you want to meet a scientist goto a lab. If you want to see a CS guy at work, goto google, goto Sun (Now Oracle), goto Blizzard, goto Nvidia, MIT, Stanford.
 
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Guys,

being a CS guy, I can add my 2 cents, IT basically has to using computer tool(software) to accomplish automation of products such as HR work using HRM software such as peoplesoft, making databases using oracle or to some extent web dev using tools such as Drupal, Dreamweaver etc. What a CS guy love to do is to make such automation software SAP, Oracle these require knowledge of Concurrency control, Parallel programming using User Level/Kernel level threads, knowledge of Compilers and tools such as ANTRL so that one can make custom languages for business needs. Then comes algorithms using suitable algorithms so that software/ automation tools don't take forever to load. Making device driver for a product. Then comes resource handling and management in the form of GC.

Exactly, we make the tools that you use, the operating systems that you work with. If you are pilot of the vehicle (called IT), we are the makers of the airplane. We study the physics, the mathematics.

The dream job of CS guy is doing dirty work/ low level stuff to make life easier for people(IT) who work on those tools but yes getting this kind of job is not easy.

You need to be really dedicated and be good at what you do. This field is only for the hardcore, you cannot be semi-dedicated and still do fine. Any scientific field is like that. You cannot succeed as a Physicist, Mathematician, Neuroscientist unless you are 100% committed. Heck, if you want CS jobs, but aren't skilled. You don't even get into the field. For every 70-80 people that we screen for our department, we take 1.
 
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Implementing this algo specific purpose ( programming) is indeed IT

If you are simply implementing the algorithm, that is converting logic to code, that is IT. But if you are playing around with logic or special constraints to the logic, it's CS.

Dude, when I was working with Juniper, they would hire both IT and CS guys. [This was 2 years ago]. They took all sorts of people : Electrical, Eletronics. with 1 or no IT experience for IT jobs. [In other words, you can start in IT without any formal training or education]. Why spend 4 years in electrical if you simply want to go IT?

But when it came to Computer Science jobs, Juniper guys were so careful. They had meticulous screening standards.

The pay wasn't too different though. The IT guys got 75-85k, CS guys got 90-100k.

If IT is so difficult/as difficult as CS, how can people with no computer-related education/knowledge from internet or wherever, get into it and still do good? Why aren't the same folks able to do well in CS? Why is it that CS has higher knowledge requirements than IT?
 
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Okay, for starters I have a VERY good idea as to what IT people do, I started out as an IT professional myself.

So basically, all jobs are EQUALLY challenging? Wish the world were so ideal.

One simple evidence that IT is easier than CS. People who don't have a lot of computer background, they get into IT and they do well. People who don't have a lot of Mathematics background simply cannot do CS. That's right. It's like trying to lift a truck. You can try all day, but you cannot solve one REAL CS problem without a good mathematical/logical background. It's not doable. End of story. I've seen people sit at work all day frantically researching, but terribly underperforming in Computer Science.

Whereas, in IT that never happened. Anyone who was taught the basics of the tool can handle IT.



What is this non-sense that you sprout? Do you even know what CS is? CS people are those guys who develop your eclipse. They are the one that developed your kernel. They are the ones that created SAP (which you use).




CS is process based? LOL? Are you kidding me? SDLC isn't even applicable to CS. It's the IT folks that brought all this shitty *** process into the field.

And its this SDLC process that has managed to bring down cost of enterprise systems when before your CS guys would sit and take their sweet little time. You guys are trying to argue about something that makes no sense in the first place. CS AND IT are not compatible and trying to say one is harder than the other is nothing but stupid. They require different tools and different personalities. Your telling me that anyone who can handle a computer can work in IT, then it means you have no idea what IT is. Let me tell you what a consultant does -

Information technology consulting (IT consulting, Computer consultancy, Computing consultancy, technology consulting or business and technology services) is a field that focuses on advising businesses on how best to use information technology to meet their business objectives. In addition to providing advice, IT consultancies often implement, deploy, and administer IT systems on businesses' behalf.

The IT consulting industry can be viewed as a three-tier system:
Professional services firms which maintain large professional workforces and command high bill rates.

Staffing firms, which place technologists with businesses on a temporary basis, typically in response to employee absences, temporary skill shortages and technical projects.
Independent consultants, who function as employees of staffing firms (for US tax purposes, employed on "W-2"), or as independent contractors in their own right (for US tax purposes, on "1099").

There is a relatively unclear line between management consulting and IT consulting. There are sometimes overlaps between the two fields, but IT consultants often have degrees in computer science, electronics, technology, or management information systems while management consultants often have degrees in accounting, economics, Industrial Engineering, finance, or a generalized MBA (Masters in Business Administration).

According to the Institute for Partner Education & Development, IT consultants' revenues come predominantly from design and planning based consulting with a mixture of IT and Business Consulting. This is different from a Systems Integrator in that you do not normally take title to product. Their value comes from their ability to integrate and support technologies as well as determining product and brands.

A consultant is usually an expert or a professional in a specific field and has a wide knowledge of the subject matter. A consultant usually works for a consultancy firm or is self-employed, and engages with multiple and changing clients. Thus, clients have access to deeper levels of expertise than would be feasible for them to retain in-house, and may purchase only as much service from the outside consultant as desired. It is generally accepted good corporate governance to hire consultants as a check to the Principal-Agent problem.


Most of your daily life communications are done via the Internet either by email or social networks, business information travels at the speed of light round the world to deliver new opportunities. We have all become dependant on information technology and that is why we can all lose out if it goes wrong.

• Data Back Up
• Data Recovery
• Disaster Recovery Planning
• Fault Resolution
• Hardware Maintenance
• Internet & E mail Monitoring
• IT Strategy
• Licence Management
• Networking
• Procurement
• Relocation & Expansion
• Secure Remote Access
• Security & Virus Protection
• Software Maintenance



IT is very very complex field and mastering any one of them takes a lifetime. There is no easier or tougher here, transforming a business is the toughest thing to do in this world. Where math can be learned and mastered with practice, pure analytical skills and problem solving methodology comes with years and years of ground work. Its simple fact that IT guys are more valued that CS guys just because of the fact that real IT professionals are very limited. Anyone can get an SAP certification but to have the business knowledge also is a rare aspect.

You talking about the SDLC process but i hope you know that the system development phase is the easiest of all steps. Its scope documents and requirements that are the toughest to define. If the IT guys do not work out what the company needs in the first place, the so called " Developers" might as well go home. I work with developers all day and i can tell you most of them just want to make the best program without any concern for the cost or the scope. Without IT professionals keeping a check on them, every system would jump its cost ratios and organizations like Oracle and SAP would cease to exist. I dont know why you guys dont understand that there are two different fields and they should not be compared. Its like comparing a doctor with a Pharmacist. With a doctor the pharmacist is useless and visa versa.
 
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