What is SAP? and what certification to start with for a newbie in the field?

[desiman]

If you are simply implementing the algorithm, that is converting logic to code, that is IT. But if you are playing around with logic or special constraints to the logic, it's CS.

Dude, when I was working with Juniper, they would hire both IT and CS guys. [This was 2 years ago]. They took all sorts of people : Electrical, Eletronics. with 1 or no IT experience for IT jobs. [In other words, you can start in IT without any formal training or education]. Why spend 4 years in electrical if you simply want to go IT?

But when it came to Computer Science jobs, Juniper guys were so careful. They had meticulous screening standards.

The pay wasn't too different though. The IT guys got 75-85k, CS guys got 90-100k.

If IT is so difficult/as difficult as CS, how can people with no computer-related education/knowledge from internet or wherever, get into it and still do good? Why aren't the same folks able to do well in CS? Why is it that CS has higher knowledge requirements than IT?

which IT are you talking about ??????? try to get into SAP, Oracle or Accenture with no consultancy experience and just CS knowledge, they will laugh at you lol

 

[harrymohan]

which IT are you talking about ??????? try to get into SAP, Oracle or Accenture with no consultancy experience and just CS knowledge, they will laugh at you lol

You are absolutely right with respect to experience IT is a demanding field in which expertise with the tool is necessary and between dev and deployment not much is there. So yes in order to become expert you need to have either real experience or fudge your resume by adding fake experience in order to get the job. The downside to this IT is you need to keep urself updated with the tools and their versions, for example for being successful web developer one doesnt need to use much of CS fundamentals but knowledge of higher level of languages such as HTML, XML, Javascript, Jquery, Php, JSP, Mysql, Drupal, CSS which I find very burdensome to learn so much but yeah requires very less brain once u start using it. Most cut copy paste stuff.

In India its IT that rules since it's service oriented industry where as in US it's product dev and RnD that rules so being a CS major in US is better than IT engg. since most IT jobs are already being outsourced to India and other countries.

IT job any person can do such as Mech, Civil, Electrical after giving training for 6 months or so but for CS jobs not everyone can do it without having BS/MS degree in same. It takes time to understand CS stuff which IT companies unfortunately can't give in training period.

 

[desiman]

You are absolutely right with respect to experience IT is a demanding field in which expertise with the tool is necessary and between dev and deployment not much is there. So yes in order to become expert you need to have either real experience or fudge your resume by adding fake experience in order to get the job. The downside to this IT is you need to keep urself updated with the tools and their versions, for example for being successful web developer one doesnt need to use much of CS fundamentals but knowledge of higher level of languages such as HTML, XML, Javascript, Jquery, Php, JSP, Mysql, Drupal, CSS which I find very burdensome to learn so much but yeah requires very less brain once u start using it. Most cut copy paste stuff.

In India its IT that rules since it's service oriented industry where as in US it's product dev and RnD that rules so being a CS major in US is better than IT engg. since most IT jobs are already being outsourced to India and other countries.

thats a fair comment, IT consultancy still has a huge amount of potential in the north America specially if you work in the SCM or expert systems side. Ya jobs are getting shipped to India and its the programmers that are suffering the most as development is not being done there. Textron is moving its development and research modules to India 2013 and so i plan to come back to my country then also lol See you in India

 

[harrymohan]

thats a fair comment, IT consultancy still has a huge amount of potential in the north America specially if you work in the SCM or expert systems side. Ya jobs are getting shipped to India and its the programmers that are suffering the most as development is not being done there. Textron is moving its development and research modules to India 2013 and so i plan to come back to my country then also lol See you in India

Coming back to India would be horror for me after paying tuition fee for my double master degrees from Private univs here!! I want to work here for atleast 5-7yrs inorder to get back money!

 

[desiman]

Coming back to India would be horror for me after paying tuition fee for my double master degrees from Private univs here!! I want to work here for atleast 5-7yrs inorder to get back money!

lol ya i managed to stay out of that by working my way through university and masters. It was very tough while i was in University with work and studies but i guess it paid off in the long run. Loans for education can be a nightmare here. I cant wait to get back to India, much more opportunities back there.

 

[Pakistani_Athiest]

And its this SDLC process that has managed to bring down cost of enterprise systems when before your CS guys would sit and take their sweet little time. You guys are trying to argue about something that makes no sense in the first place. CS AND IT are not compatible and trying to say one is harder than the other is nothing but stupid. They require different tools and different personalities. Your telling me that anyone who can handle a computer can work in IT, then it means you have no idea what IT is. Let me tell you what a consultant does -

Information technology consulting (IT consulting, Computer consultancy, Computing consultancy, technology consulting or business and technology services) is a field that focuses on advising businesses on how best to use information technology to meet their business objectives. In addition to providing advice, IT consultancies often implement, deploy, and administer IT systems on businesses' behalf.

The IT consulting industry can be viewed as a three-tier system:
Professional services firms which maintain large professional workforces and command high bill rates.

Staffing firms, which place technologists with businesses on a temporary basis, typically in response to employee absences, temporary skill shortages and technical projects.
Independent consultants, who function as employees of staffing firms (for US tax purposes, employed on "W-2"), or as independent contractors in their own right (for US tax purposes, on "1099").

There is a relatively unclear line between management consulting and IT consulting. There are sometimes overlaps between the two fields, but IT consultants often have degrees in computer science, electronics, technology, or management information systems while management consultants often have degrees in accounting, economics, Industrial Engineering, finance, or a generalized MBA (Masters in Business Administration).

According to the Institute for Partner Education & Development, IT consultants' revenues come predominantly from design and planning based consulting with a mixture of IT and Business Consulting. This is different from a Systems Integrator in that you do not normally take title to product. Their value comes from their ability to integrate and support technologies as well as determining product and brands.

A consultant is usually an expert or a professional in a specific field and has a wide knowledge of the subject matter. A consultant usually works for a consultancy firm or is self-employed, and engages with multiple and changing clients. Thus, clients have access to deeper levels of expertise than would be feasible for them to retain in-house, and may purchase only as much service from the outside consultant as desired. It is generally accepted good corporate governance to hire consultants as a check to the Principal-Agent problem.


Most of your daily life communications are done via the Internet either by email or social networks, business information travels at the speed of light round the world to deliver new opportunities. We have all become dependant on information technology and that is why we can all lose out if it goes wrong.

• Data Back Up
• Data Recovery
• Disaster Recovery Planning
• Fault Resolution
• Hardware Maintenance
• Internet & E mail Monitoring
• IT Strategy
• Licence Management
• Networking
• Procurement
• Relocation & Expansion
• Secure Remote Access
• Security & Virus Protection
• Software Maintenance



IT is very very complex field and mastering any one of them takes a lifetime. There is no easier or tougher here, transforming a business is the toughest thing to do in this world. Where math can be learned and mastered with practice, pure analytical skills and problem solving methodology comes with years and years of ground work. Its simple fact that IT guys are more valued that CS guys just because of the fact that real IT professionals are very limited. Anyone can get an SAP certification but to have the business knowledge also is a rare aspect.

You talking about the SDLC process but i hope you know that the system development phase is the easiest of all steps. Its scope documents and requirements that are the toughest to define. If the IT guys do not work out what the company needs in the first place, the so called " Developers" might as well go home. I work with developers all day and i can tell you most of them just want to make the best program without any concern for the cost or the scope. Without IT professionals keeping a check on them, every system would jump its cost ratios and organizations like Oracle and SAP would cease to exist. I dont know why you guys dont understand that there are two different fields and they should not be compared. Its like comparing a doctor with a Pharmacist. With a doctor the pharmacist is useless and visa versa.

Okay. I won't say that IT is useless or unimportant. IT is definitely important. Also, like I said at least thrice before, I was into IT before getting into CS.

When I was in IT, I wasn't really using my brain. I wouldn't come home mentally exhausted from all the thinking. Four-five years after marriage, I will move back to IT, when I am no longer as committed as I am at work. IT guys won't exist without the backbone of CS, and CS guys won't find a place to use their skills if the IT guys did not create applications and thereby make more utility for computers and computing.

Having said all of that, a CS guy can definitely get into IT and do well. Proof: When a Mechanical guy, a Chemical guy, an electronics guy can do that, why can't a CS guy do that? An IT guy on the other hand will sit idle in a serious CS lab. The knowledge threshold for CS is far more demanding. I know this because I experienced the IT to CS transition. I had to read Math and CS nearly everyday for 4-5 hours for four years before I could become a confident Computer Scientist. This was after office hours. And believe me, I am extremely good at Math, it still took me that much of learning and time.

Its like comparing a doctor with a Pharmacist. With a doctor the pharmacist is useless and visa versa.

That's what I am talking about. And we know what takes more skill and hardwork and learning.

 

[Pakistani_Athiest]

lol ya i managed to stay out of that by working my way through university and masters. It was very tough while i was in University with work and studies but i guess it paid off in the long run. Loans for education can be a nightmare here. I cant wait to get back to India, much more opportunities back there.

If you were good at CS, you could have published a couple papers and gotten RAship. That's full tuition fee waiver+insurance+2-2.5k dollars per month. =P Plus, opportunity to work at a high-class computer lab, further enhancing your skillset and getting better opportunities after graduation!

 

[desiman]

Okay. I won't say that IT is useless or unimportant. IT is definitely important. Also, like I said at least thrice before, I was into IT before getting into CS.

When I was in IT, I wasn't really using my brain. I wouldn't come home mentally exhausted from all the thinking. Four-five years after marriage, I will move back to IT, when I am no longer as committed as I am at work. IT guys won't exist without the backbone of CS, and CS guys won't find a place to use their skills if the IT guys did not create applications and thereby make more utility for computers and computing.

Having said all of that, a CS guy can definitely get into IT and do well. Proof: When a Mechanical guy, a Chemical guy, an electronics guy can do that, why can't a CS guy do that? An IT guy on the other hand will sit idle in a serious CS lab. The knowledge threshold for CS is far more demanding. I know this because I experienced the IT to CS transition. I had to read Math and CS nearly everyday for 4-5 hours for four years before I could become a confident Computer Scientist. This was after office hours. And believe me, I am extremely good at Math, it still took me that much of learning and time.



That's what I am talking about. And we know what takes more skill and hardwork and learning.

again i dont want to argue on this but learning and difficulty is subjective. Its good that you enjoy CS and that IT did not work your brain. Where on the other hand i love IT and felt that CS is too limited and quite boring for me. Its different personalities and everybody has something that they love doing. CS and IT work together and they cannot survive alone.

 

[Pakistani_Athiest]

again i dont want to argue on this but learning and difficulty is subjective. Its good that you enjoy CS and that IT did not work your brain. Where on the other hand i love IT and felt that CS is too limited and quite boring for me. Its different personalities and everybody has something that they love doing. CS and IT work together and they cannot survive alone.

Which aspect of CS did you find boring/limited/non-challening. I think you are confusing 'coding' with CS. Coding is also IT, it's not CS. Are you good at calculus/Linear and Modern Algebra? Remember the sudoku question that I asked you? Are you finding it too easy and non-challenging?

Hey, it's not about 'difficulty being subjective'. Let me ask you a question.

How many mechanical engineers fake 5-6 years exp and get jobs and still do fine? Marginal?

How many Computer Scientists fake experience and get jobs? CS guys don't need to fake experience, coz CS jobs have nothing to do with prior experience. It's all about your interview.

How many doctors fake experience to get their jobs? Civil engineers? Chemical engineers? If they fake experience, they simply cannot perform well. What about IT? Nearly every desi consultant fakes a **** load of experience and STILL DOES fine.

All this proves is that, not only is education non-essential (considering the non-computer people doing fine in IT) but also is experience semi-useful. I know that REAL experience and FAKE experience aren't comparable. But check other fields!

When neither education nor experience are required to perform in a field, what makes it challenging?

 

[desiman]

Which aspect of CS did you find boring/limited/non-challening. I think you are confusing 'coding' with CS. Coding is also IT, it's not CS. Are you good at calculus/Linear and Modern Algebra? Remember the sudoku question that I asked you? Are you finding it too easy and non-challenging?

Hey, it's not about 'difficulty being subjective'. Let me ask you a question.

How many mechanical engineers fake 5-6 years exp and get jobs and still do fine? Marginal?

How many Computer Scientists fake experience and get jobs? CS guys don't need to fake experience, coz CS jobs have nothing to do with prior experience. It's all about your interview.

How many doctors fake experience to get their jobs? Civil engineers? Chemical engineers? If they fake experience, they simply cannot perform well. What about IT? Nearly every desi consultant fakes a **** load of experience and STILL DOES fine.

All this proves is that, not only is education non-essential (considering the non-computer people doing fine in IT) but also is experience semi-useful. I know that REAL experience and FAKE experience aren't comparable. But check other fields!

When neither education nor experience are required to perform in a field, what makes it challenging?

CS is quite boring for me, i dont like math and find it quite boring. I good at it but just dont like spending to much time on it. No i did not solve the soduku problem you posted as i dint see any point doing that.

Where did you get info that IT consultants fake their resume ????????????? i hope you know resume for high level jobs such as consultancy are checked and re-checked using services such as BackCheck or reference regulators. I dont know which industries your talking about but in most industry's Faking info on resume is caught quite easily. A simple question at the interview can tell you everything about the person. HR professionals are taught how to catch a fake and they are very good at it too.

im not sure how old are you but i hope you know that experience and educational backgrounds go hand in hand. You cannot get into a fortune 500 company as a consultant with a CS degree, it wont happen. I dont know which people your talking about when you say the non-computer related people are doing fine in IT. Ya maybe in my uncle's bakery but in a IT related firm, you must be joking.

Again i dont see the point in arguing about this as there is no argument. CS is CS and IT is IT, tougher or easier-depends on the person.

 

[Pakistani_Athiest]

CS is quite boring for me, i dont like math and find it quite boring. I good at it but just dont like spending to much time on it. No i did not solve the soduku problem you posted as i dint see any point doing that.

Where did you get info that IT consultants fake their resume ????????????? i hope you know resume for high level jobs such as consultancy are checked and re-checked using services such as BackCheck or reference regulators. I dont know which industries your talking about but in most industry's Faking info on resume is caught quite easily. A simple question at the interview can tell you everything about the person. HR professionals are taught how to catch a fake and they are very good at it too.

im not sure how old are you but i hope you know that experience and educational backgrounds go hand in hand. You cannot get into a fortune 500 company as a consultant with w CS degree, it wont happen. I dont know which people your talking about when you say the non-computer related people are doing fine in IT. Ya maybe in my uncle's bakery but in a IT related firm, you must be joking.

Again i dont see the point in arguing about this as there is no argument. CS is CS and IT is IT, tougher or easier-depends on the person.

The reason why I am sure that you have NO idea what CS is, stems from the fact that you keep using the word 'CS consultants'. CS does not follow a consulting model. CS people are employed by the same company for 20-30 years. Either that, or they become FREELANCERS. Never consultants.

Having said that, I never said that these 'IT consultants' get into fortune 500 companies. Or do they? Yes they do. I am in a F-100 company and we have lots of Pakistani and Indian consultants faking through their arses. Dude, if a CS guy fakes experience and is made to sit in our lab, he will be in tears in 30 mins due to his sheer inability to do anything. It just does not happen in IT.

It's a world-renouned fact that MAXIMUM experience faking happens in IT. Why is this? Because IT does not require all that skill/experience. You can do fine without all that experience. The smart ones WILL figure that you lied, BUT you will STILL do fine. CS, that's not happening. Never did. Never will.

P.S. About Solitaire optimization, you might have to take the next few months off work even if you wanted to get that done. Don't make it sound like it's too easy and you aren't bothered

 

[Pakistani_Athiest]

I dont know which people your talking about when you say the non-computer related people are doing fine in IT. Ya maybe in my uncle's bakery but in a IT related firm, you must be joking.

Go check out linkedin and figure out how many electronics/electrical people are now successful IT professionals. From my own family. My two cousins are [One electronic and the other electrical]. My own brother is [He did a BA and MBA and he is now working with SAP]. My sister-in-law is. My sister-in-law has an IT degree, but she cannot even install Fedora Core! =D

Another cousin from Rawalpindi did his Bachelors and Masters in mechanical, he now works as a pm at Accenture.

 

[desiman]

Go check out linkedin and figure out how many electronics/electrical people are now successful IT professionals. From my own family. My two cousins are [One electronic and the other electrical]. My own brother is [He did a BA and MBA and he is now working with SAP]. My sister-in-law is. My sister-in-law has an IT degree, but she cannot even install Fedora Core! =D

Another cousin from Rawalpindi did his Bachelors and Masters in mechanical, he now works as a pm at Accenture.

What IT are you talking about buddy ? You do know IT is one of the most varied fields out there. Not everyone working at SAP is a consultant or working on a project. Consultants only represent about 10% of SAP's workforce but take home over 30% of the pay. What is an IT degee ? you being too vague in your statements. And in regards to your cousin, its hard to believe and there are always one off cases. Again I dont know how Accenture operates in Pakistan but we all know how hiring can be manipulated in south Asia. Lots of uncles and their sons miraculously end up in the same company, take a hint

 

[desiman]

The reason why I am sure that you have NO idea what CS is, stems from the fact that you keep using the word 'CS consultants'. CS does not follow a consulting model. CS people are employed by the same company for 20-30 years. Either that, or they become FREELANCERS. Never consultants.

Having said that, I never said that these 'IT consultants' get into fortune 500 companies. Or do they? Yes they do. I am in a F-100 company and we have lots of Pakistani and Indian consultants faking through their arses. Dude, if a CS guy fakes experience and is made to sit in our lab, he will be in tears in 30 mins due to his sheer inability to do anything. It just does not happen in IT.

It's a world-renouned fact that MAXIMUM experience faking happens in IT. Why is this? Because IT does not require all that skill/experience. You can do fine without all that experience. The smart ones WILL figure that you lied, BUT you will STILL do fine. CS, that's not happening. Never did. Never will.

P.S. About Solitaire optimization, you might have to take the next few months off work even if you wanted to get that done. Don't make it sound like it's too easy and you aren't bothered

your arguments are too vague and your generalizing way to much. If you do work for a "F-100" company then you must know how hiring is done and how strict they are with their resume checks. I really dont know anything about faking in a fortune 500 company as frankly it does not work. And by the way the most faking happens in the engineering and business sectors as its easy to get your whole degree online from Baba Amte University lol again i see no point of this argument as your fighting over a non-existent point. CS and IT are not comparable, is it so tough to understand this ? no wonder you guys need a consultant standing over your head all the time lol
and where did i say " CS consultants" lol

 

[Mrityunjay Rai]

If you are simply implementing the algorithm, that is converting logic to code, that is IT. But if you are playing around with logic or special constraints to the logic, it's CS.

Dude, when I was working with Juniper, they would hire both IT and CS guys. [This was 2 years ago]. They took all sorts of people : Electrical, Eletronics. with 1 or no IT experience for IT jobs. [In other words, you can start in IT without any formal training or education]. Why spend 4 years in electrical if you simply want to go IT?

But when it came to Computer Science jobs, Juniper guys were so careful. They had meticulous screening standards.

The pay wasn't too different though. The IT guys got 75-85k, CS guys got 90-100k.

If IT is so difficult/as difficult as CS, how can people with no computer-related education/knowledge from internet or wherever, get into it and still do good? Why aren't the same folks able to do well in CS? Why is it that CS has higher knowledge requirements than IT?

What higher knowledge requirement? Give me a CS guy who can do the Penetration Testing with his huge knowledge of Maths?You might creat a specific tool with your deep CS/Math/Algo knowledge but we are the one who use many of these tools in same time and figure out how to coordinate with the so that output of one tool can be fed into another.if CS guys are that champion why dont they creat any thing that make IT guys useless.You might creat an Ferrari but we are the one who drive it to win the race.Its only the driver who knows when to put the foot on accel. And when to turn the stearing wheel, wathing the road and speedometer , tell the mechenical engineer at the Ferrari to do this?
You may creat a mindblowing security algo but when it starts to suck up processer and memory then we the IT guys who decide to kill some processes to save the device from being crashed.Try to apply your algorithm here.How many of them can be created for all the new problmes that comes after every few hours.

In a nutshel I say IT starts where CS ends