What INSAS has really achieved after 15 years & what its future

[EzioAltaïr]

Heard the 6.8 myth. Will believe when I see it, and I mean in the field. Otherwise 50 years of combat experience from soldiers around the world prefer the 7.62 hands down.

The 7.62 vs 5.56 is an unending fight, and the only advantage the 7.62 really possesses is the lethality. But the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages, included weight of ammo, high recoil (G3 uses 7.62 x 51mm, which is the highest recoil in any automatic rifle), and a few others. Also you failed to note the fact that all of the best armies in the world have moved away from 7.62x51, and use either the 7.62x39 or 5.56/5.45, or the new Grendel rounds.

I mean this isn't a sport, what are you trying to shoot paper clips at the enemy?

So who is to make a decision? A general who has 40 years of experience, or guys like us who have no hands-on experience?

That's why many countries including Pakistan still operate the G3.

How many of them happen to be contenders for the title of best army in the world? How many of them compare to the US army which uses the "weak and ineffective" 5.56 rounds, and the Russian army with its 5.45 rounds?

 

[RazPaK]

The 7.62 vs 5.56 is an unending fight, and the only advantage the 7.62 really possesses is the lethality. But the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages, included weight of ammo, high recoil (G3 uses 7.62 x 51mm, which is the highest recoil in any automatic rifle), and a few others. Also you failed to note the fact that all of the best armies in the world have moved away from 7.62x51, and use either the 7.62x39 or 5.56/5.45, or the new Grendel rounds.



So who is to make a decision? A general who has 40 years of experience, or guys like us who have no hands-on experience?



How many of them happen to be contenders for the title of best army in the world? How many of them compare to the US army which uses the "weak and ineffective" 5.56 rounds, and the Russian army with its 5.45 rounds?

Do armies win wars with bullets?

Well, look what is happening in Afghanistan. The US soldiers on many accounts felt that they were outgunned in firefights using the 5.45 rounds.

And believe me, I have plenty of "hands on" experience. The whole concept of the whirling and twirling effect of the 5.45 doesn't sit well with me.

 

[EzioAltaïr]

Do armies win wars with bullets?

Well, look what is happening in Afghanistan. The US soldiers on many accounts felt that they were outgunned in firefights using the 5.45 rounds.

Possibly for CQB, where the ability to spray bullets with the guarantee that one hit will kill, is more important than accuracy. But in long distance, 5.56 wins hands down. That's the reason for IAs request for a multical rifle.

And believe me, I have plenty of "hands on" experience.

Do you?

The whole concept of the whirling and twirling effect of the 5.45 doesn't sit well with me.

Why?

 

[RazPaK]

Possibly for CQB, where the ability to spray bullets with the guarantee that one hit will kill, is more important than accuracy. But in long distance, 5.56 wins hands down. That's the reason for IAs request for a multical rifle.


Do you?



Why?

To answer your first question yes.

To answer your second question:

That a paper clip round such as the, 5.45 whether is whirls and twirls can easily pass through the body. Why waste more rounds to get the job done?

You mentioned lethality earlier, and it was spot on. In a fire fight that one shot can make all the difference.

 

[EzioAltaïr]

To answer your first question yes.

Okay.

That a paper clip round such as the, 5.45 whether is whirls and twirls can easily pass through the body. Why waste more rounds to get the job done?

The tumble effect can cause severe fatal bleeding, which almost always pretty much kills the target. If it penetrates too fast though, the stopping power is reduced.

You mentioned lethality earlier, and it was spot on. In a fire fight that one shot can make all the difference.

For a shorter range battle, yes. Every bullet is guaranteed to hit its mark. But at a range longer than 200m, the bigger rounds fail at accuracy. This is why many are converting to intermediate 6.8mm rounds, or multical rifles.

 

[Sergi]

That M16 is of the Israeli Military not Indian...I have never seen an Indian soldier with M-16

The contract for over 3,400 ARs and 175 to 200 sniper rifles was finalised late last year by a "specially empowered" Ministry of Defence (MoD) committee, which visited Tel Aviv to upgrade the capabilities of India's Special Forces
Can you tell me what that ARs means If not "M-16 ARs"

 

[Sergi]

No, the F-INSAS rifle is participating in the trials. I've no source for this, only the word of a guy who has previously shown himself to be very trustworthy. I only have his word for it, and while he may be wrong, I'm quite sure he is right.

They won't induct F-INSAS simply for being Indian. They will hold a competition, just like how there was one between INSAS, Steyr AUG, and G41.

Well budy i too have seen it with my own eyes in Defence Expo Nov,2010 by IA in Pune. I live in Pune. Meet a guy from testing lab and this is what he say. You still wana belive yu are free to do that

You kidding me dude ??? Please make a point than rouge argument.

F-INSAS project is for modernisation of Indian Army. Every thing on this project is give requirements and standards by ARMY right from water-carrying bag(Not bottle) to range of personal radio. They have given requirements for F-INSAS gun too

So when ever the F-INSAS gun completes army requirement and a successful trial by IA it will be inducted DIRECTLY. No competitor. It's just like LCA for IAF they have to take it when ever it pass requirements.

There was competition between INSAS , steyr AUG and G42 ??? When where why ??? Please share. I don't know about it

 

[Terminator]

@ RazPaK..as I said ..nasty 7.62 vs 5.56...

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

The contract for over 3,400 ARs and 175 to 200 sniper rifles was finalised late last year by a "specially empowered" Ministry of Defence (MoD) committee, which visited Tel Aviv to upgrade the capabilities of India's Special Forces
Can you tell me what that ARs means If not "M-16 ARs"

ARs=Assault Rifles!!

The line clearly means that 3400 Tavor ARs and 175-200 SRs(sniper rifles) will be inducted...how does it mean M-16 when it is Israel we are talking about and it is an American product.

 

[EzioAltaïr]

Well budy i too have seen it with my own eyes in Defence Expo Nov,2010 by IA in Pune. I live in Pune. Meet a guy from testing lab and this is what he say. You still wana belive yu are free to do that

You kidding me dude ??? Please make a point than rouge argument.

Like I said, I have no source for it. Only the word of a few guys, who have asked officials at Defexpo, who said the rifle should be ready by May.

So when ever the F-INSAS gun completes army requirement and a successful trial by IA it will be inducted DIRECTLY. No competitor. It's just like LCA for IAF they have to take it when ever it pass requirements.

LCA will not face conpetition since they have a terrible shortfall of squadrons, and need to get rid of those MiG21s.

Look at Arjun. Even mkII is first facing competition with T-90MS.

There was competition between INSAS , steyr AUG and G42 ??? When where why ??? Please share. I don't know about it

This info comes from a retired IA officer. Apparently the army had to choose between G41 and Austeyr, but liked neither of 'em. It went up to DRDO and told 'em to make a
good rifle with the best of both. This also explains why they made a copy, 'cause they were just told, "Go make me a rifle."

ARs=Assault Rifles!!

The line clearly means that 3400 Tavor ARs and 175-200 SRs(sniper rifles) will be inducted...how does it mean M-16 when it is Israel we are talking about and it is an American product.

He is taking AR as the prefix for te unofficial name for M16. AR15

 

[Sergi]

Like I said, I have no source for it. Only the word of a few guys, who have asked officials at Defexpo, who said the rifle should be ready by May.



LCA will not face conpetition since they have a terrible shortfall of squadrons, and need to get rid of those MiG21s.

Look at Arjun. Even mkII is first facing competition with T-90MS.



This info comes from a retired IA officer. Apparently the army had to choose between G41 and Austeyr, but liked neither of 'em. It went up to DRDO and told 'em to make a
good rifle with the best of both. This also explains why they made a copy, 'cause they were just told, "Go make me a rifle."



He is taking AR as the prefix for te unofficial name for M16. AR15

hahhaahah all your Infos are messed up Bro
1. About LCA. They have to have take it when the Bird Passes FOC set by IAF
2. Arjun don't have to over power T-90s to get inducted. The problem of the tank is in total different dimensions. Arjun project DIDN'T ACHIVE army's goals on some front. Trust me if Arunj wouldn't have outgun and out run T-90s IA would have rejected it for NOT completing their requirements.
3. hahahahah ou are saying IA choose INSAS over G42 and steer AUG ??? Really ???

 

[EzioAltaïr]

hahhaahah all your Infos are messed up Bro
1. About LCA. They have to have take it when the Bird Passes FOC set by IAF

So?

2. Arjun don't have to over power T-90s to get inducted. The problem of the tank is in total different dimensions. Arjun project DIDN'T ACHIVE army's goals on some front. Trust me if Arunj wouldn't have outgun and out run T-90s IA would have rejected it for NOT completing their requirements.

Russians have offered us T-90MS at Defexpo. It might have to fight it.

3. hahahahah ou are saying IA choose INSAS over G42 and steer AUG ??? Really ???

Not me, a retired IA officer.

INSAS vs AK47 vs M16? - Page 2

 

[Sergi]

ARs=Assault Rifles!!

The line clearly means that 3400 Tavor ARs and 175-200 SRs(sniper rifles) will be inducted...how does it mean M-16 when it is Israel we are talking about and it is an American product.

hahahah that was a silly mistake. I agree but didn't it clear our point. We sign contract for TAR-21 in 2003. So M-16 were there before TAR , right ???

 

[Sergi]

So?



Russians have offered us T-90MS at Defexpo. It might have to fight it.


Not me, a retired IA officer.

INSAS vs AK47 vs M16? - Page 2

1. So is IAF cant reject it. That's the point. Pass FOC you are in. No competion. Simple

2 you have to compare Arjun with Abahms or Leo. Not with T-90. Arjun isn't replacement of T-90.
GOI will never make Arjun compete with Leo or Aby and then select the Tank.

Then what's the purpose of growing it in home anyways. Just buy it. Don't develop same goes for Rifle.

3. Ok will read it later. And then reply and will try to get more info from my sources too

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

hahahah that was a silly mistake. I agree but didn't it clear our point. We sign contract for TAR-21 in 2003. So M-16 were there before TAR , right ???

There are no M-16s in the Indian Army.

Para used AK,VZ,Insas etc before.