What if PAF has to defend on two fronts?

[TsAr]

India mite have initially thought of launching an air attack but its not that easy....That they must remember that its not Iraq they are facing its Pakistan

 

[MastanKhan]

Niaz---X-man,

Thank you for you posts---sanity must prevail in time of duress and Pakistan needs sane minds at the helm and we need sane minds on this web-site.

Pakistan and PAF are in no condition to take it from both ends.

It is not fair on our part to push PAF into a position of confrontation with IAF at this time. Pakistan and PAF have worked very hard to gain the lost ground to come up with an air superiority fighter and other complimentary equipment----even though I, personally donot agree with their approach----but all we have to show now is not much----our frontline combat aircrafts would be in a higher numerical and technically superior position to combat the IAF in the coming two to three years---at that time I believe that I won't have to tell my PAF pilot----Son---the nation depends on your courage---go and lay down your life for the country---nation needs your sacrifice---go die like a man.

I would rather say two years from now---son----go show the enemy what we are made up of---you have the machine, material and equipment at your command that you have worked so hard for----go tell the enemy it is time for an equalizer----and also I want you to come back home alive---and let the enemy take a trip to walhallah.

As usual india has screwed up again by starting banging the war drums---thank you very much---you just let us get off the hook the upteenth time. The united nations and world coalition would have completely choked pakistan right now----but we do have some breathing room.

My personal belief is that strong statements coming out of pakistan will not be helpful to the cause----I have never been a Zardari fan---but I do like his low key response---going slightly to the weak side---I believe that it is a strategic game that Zardari is playing at this time with india---remember in the past we used to talk like----we will take the eyes out the person who looked at us mean----we will break the face of the entity who looked at us with a crooked eye and atypicaL PAKISTANI STATEMENTS coming out the mouths of president and prime minister---.

The real problem is that india knows and understands that pakistan has somehow or the other slipped out of the noose that india had prepared for it----and it has become be-wildered and does not know which direction to go.

 

[A1Kaid]

I would like to see Pakistan invest in the "Anti-Missile Defense shield" systems, I particularly like the Patriot system engineered by the U.S It is highly accurate, very reliable, and does it's job overall well.

Now in Regards to PAF, PAF would be at wit's end if it had to fight NATO/US planes from the western border and IAF planes from the eastern Border, the last country to take on such a battle and feat was probably Nazi Germany, fighting the Russians on it's Eastern Front and the US and other Allied countries on it's Western Front...And we all know how it turned out for Germany, they were defeated and humiliated, though their soldier's fought their hearts out, and their Air Force did the most dangerous Missions.

However I understand with today's modern technology it is easier for a country to fight such battles, however Pakistan is not that country at least not yet.

If the conflict only remains on our Eastern Border with India then there is little doubt PAF is capable of success.

 

[fatman17]

without being jingoistic, i believe we r doing a dis-service to the PAF. if any serving PAF pilot or airman reads the above comments...you can percieve what he will be thinking !!!

 

[A1Kaid]

without being jingoistic, i believe we r doing a dis-service to the PAF. if any serving PAF pilot or airman reads the above comments...you can percieve what he will be thinking !!!

Care to explain what your trying to say...In my post I am simply being reasonable. My point is clear.

I would like to add that I believe the PAF is a formidable force, and I believe they are one of the best Air Forces in the world, they are not at fault here. I really blame the Pakistan's Government and policy makers, they have failed to raise Pakistan to new heights, to new economic power, and self-dependence and reliance.

So stop thinking I'm belittling PAF pilots/airmen, it is simply a hard task to battle US/NATO War Planes on our Western front and IAF on our Eastern Front in a serious/major conflict.

Fatman your silly assertions are showing how bad your judgments are...With all respect of course...

 

[jarnee]

Pakistan may be a pin prick, but she can cause serious damage. Therefore course of action India is likely to adopt is to keep up International pressure on Pakistan to do more and more.

Or Pakistan disintegrates into small warlord dominated provinces such as Somalia or Taliban Afghanistan. In such a scenario different factions inside Pakistan would be too busy fighting among themselves to bother India and if they do IAF could easily take care of them without the fear of any serious reprisals.

Thus India is a win win situation whereas the very existence of Pakistan is in danger.

I still see Dr Shahid Masoud, Kamran and Hamid Mir openly preaching for the gov't to defy UN council. They don’t realize that times have changed. The mere fact that China didn’t veto the resolution signifies that world is getting fed up with Islamic jihadis and Pakistan is friendless in these circumstance.

UN Security Council has just passed a resolution to allow land action against Somalian pirates because Somalia govt has failed to stop them. Indians have succeeded in engineering a resolution which stops just short of declaring Pakistan as a terrorist state. If actions similar to the one in Bombay is repeated, we could possibly face a resolution similar to the one passed against Somalia. In such a case an international force will take action against the jihadis.

Based on the above, I don’t see why IAF should take action against Pakistan, when they can possibly get an international force to do their job. Therefore IMO IAF won’t attack inside Pakistan because this means total war with unforeseen consequences. If the actually do, than they are being stupid.

Global Phenomenon
Please readers ignore my Nationality, I have strong feeling that there will be No direct confrontation. these are Ressesion times, but you will say that last time ressesion occured , it let to WWII, that war made US the strongest country in the world. Becuase it supplied huge amount Military hardware to Britain and France.and in turn revived its economy. This time also though there will be no direct war (Thanks to Nuclear deterrence) but both India and maybe to some extent Pak, and other countries watching these events closely will do huge buying of Military equipments, and large chunk of that will be Military survellance, Night vision, High tech Radars. And no guesses who supplies that. India is 1 Trillion $$ economy , and could easily shell out a fraction of that. Now more then before. Look at all State govts in india doing proactive spending in this regards.

Other angle

We all wonder where do the Alquaida/ LET et ALL, gets their funding. I will be stupid in assuming that they are funded by Donation boxes in Gulf and Pakistan and other Islamic countries. I will not pay a penny to a Hindu organisation what ever may be the cause, and will my penny make a difference??. Lets agree that in our region including China we are too corrupt to let the donation go for a cause. lol.

This money is coming from no where other then Drug cartel, Legacy of Afghan and NW. they are both surviving on each other , Drug lords are getting shelter from Taliban and now they have to return favour by escalating tension between IND- PAK, so that stupid politicians divert the focus from WAR on Terror in Afghan and Pak, to Indian Border. And that is why they intentionally left lot of clues , that link to Pakistan/ karachi and some wires to ISI. To mislead India and International community.
So my appeal to people in Mumbai and rest of affluent India (some in Pak too) to stop taking those Drug Shots, (USD 150 for 5 Gm.) and save our region.
from terror.

But let me tell you there would be more people that i think will be benefiting from DRUG trafficking. Who knows Politicians in India and Pak also getting their share.

 

[x_man]

well , i dont mind if you cant see , IAF flying SU30's on lahore , karachi , faisalabad, sialkot, its already 3 times this week that , IAF BREAK INTO OUR AIRSPACE, still you think that they are just , looking some tea shop to drink tea! than its oky & fine

My last reply was to your above statement that states incursions 3 times a week , SU 30s at Karachi and Faisalabad….Give me a break Batmannow….It appears that PAF is perhaps sleeping and IAF fighters are roaming freely deep inside till F’abad and Karachi…….Sorry, but who tells you these things ? Do you really believe all this gibberish, I don’t know what your source for the said info is, but that absolutely not true…And that’s what Yellow jouno is about…

I HOPE THAT ,THIS ARTICAL WOULD NOT FALL IN THE "YELOW JUORNALISM " LIST!

Not this article of course….....As far as the S. Mazaris critique, she has pointed out correctly about the Governments response. Again a pathetic and lame reaction by people who are at the helm of affairs….This lot will bring us down and undermine all the efforts made by people in the field…I have no doubts about that.

the PAF even during "peace-time" always operates on a war-footing albeit depends on the threat level of the enemy. most front-line squadrons operate under QRA (Quick Reaction Alert) conditions.

Sir, ADA from various bases is always established irrespective of the situation, similarly Air Def sectors, commands and many other ops centres are manned too round the clock even during peace time.

 

[x_man]

Now in Regards to PAF, PAF would be at wit's end if it had to fight NATO/US planes from the western border and IAF planes from the eastern Border...

PAFs doctrine is basically defence of airspace of Pakistan with limited offensive….No doubt the fighting on two fronts will saturate the resources of PAF that is traditionally been designed to fight any major battle only from East…How she deals with a threat from West, it largely depends upon the scale and magnitude of attack.

If the conflict only remains on our Eastern Border with India then there is little doubt PAF is capable of success.

Care to elaborate this statement a bit further?

 

[Kharian_Beast]

he names mbi munshi
great i didn,t know that he is famous

Is this our very own MBI Munshi?

 

[Hawkeye]

I still maintain that India is going to attack, even after we give her everything.

If I was the leader of Pakistan, I would've sent out a message that if we have enough intel that an attack from India is imminent, we won't hesitate to preemptively strike at any location within India.

I should remind you Sheikh Rasheed's attitude, "Hamla toh India ka **** bhi nahi karsakta". Obviously he doesn't know for sure, but its that kind of aggressive attitude that makes us Pakistanis. We used to take it from no one, not even Clinton was able to push us around when we were much weaker. A disciplined aggression is key here. It will ultimately reach to regional peace.

Asim, these are brave thoughts. However in todays world wars are fought with something more than agression and words. On the preemptive strikes, all Pakistan can possibly do is make them and stand back to defend the retalition which can be devastating.
It is fortunate for both our countries that the present GOI does not have the conviction to carry out strikes.

Pakistan may be a pin prick, but she can cause serious damage. Therefore course of action India is likely to adopt is to keep up International pressure on Pakistan to do more and more.

Consequences of the actions against Taliban by Pakistani forces will be either that extremist elements are eliminated, in that India has achieved her objective.

Or Pakistan disintegrates into small warlord dominated provinces such as Somalia or Taliban Afghanistan. In such a scenario different factions inside Pakistan would be too busy fighting among themselves to bother India and if they do IAF could easily take care of them without the fear of any serious reprisals.

Thus India is a win win situation whereas the very existence of Pakistan is in danger.

Pro Taliban Pakistani media has done great damage to Pakistan and to Islam; because these people are the opinion makers and have been constantly reinforcing the view that Taliban are good and friends of Islam and Pakistan and Pakistani forces on the other hand are killing innocent women and children at the behest of USA and Zionists.

I still see Dr Shahid Masoud, Kamran and Hamid Mir openly preaching for the gov't to defy UN council. They don’t realize that times have changed. The mere fact that China didn’t veto the resolution signifies that world is getting fed up with Islamic jihadis and Pakistan is friendless in these circumstance.

UN Security Council has just passed a resolution to allow land action against Somalian pirates because Somalia govt has failed to stop them. Indians have succeeded in engineering a resolution which stops just short of declaring Pakistan as a terrorist state. If actions similar to the one in Bombay is repeated, we could possibly face a resolution similar to the one passed against Somalia. In such a case an international force will take action against the jihadis.

Based on the above, I don’t see why IAF should take action against Pakistan, when they can possibly get an international force to do their job. Therefore IMO IAF won’t attack inside Pakistan because this means total war with unforeseen consequences. If the actually do, than they are being stupid.

Well written Sir. Whereas I dont see the IAF striking, I dont credit the present GOI's think tank to influence this as much as their populist and weak attitude

well,, neither numbers nor technologies win battles it is the selfdetermination and the morale which matters.. indians do know that agar aik musalman iman kay naam peh khara ho jay to phir uss ko koi chees nai rok sakti and they also know that agar unhon nay hamla kia to unhi ki band bajay gee.kyunki hum to pehlay say hi tarsay huwae log hain aur indians ki band bajanay kay lyae aur wait nai kar saktay

Flyboy you seem to have invented your own version of wars. Jitne musalmaan wahan hain, usse kuch kam yahaan bhi. Equal grit will be applied ? no ? Besides it will be 1.2 billion "bands" that will play the Indian tune

Move in US to get Pakistan aid stopped
December 17, 2008 Wednesday Zilhaj 18, 1429
dawn news
By Our Correspondent

WASHINGTON, Dec 16: US politicians with close links to India have quietly launched a campaign to persuade the incoming Obama administration to stop US aid to Pakistan.

“I do not believe in aiding countries that aid terrorism,” said US Senator Robert Menendez, a Democrat from New Jersey.

Declaring Pakistan a “failed State” Congressman Frank Pallone, another Democrat, said he opposed giving billions of dollars in aid to Pakistan because he believed it would be used against India.

Gary Ackerman, a pro-Indian Democratic Congressman from New York who has long advocated stopping US military aid to Pakistan, urged Washington to review its policy towards Islamabad after the Mumbai attacks.

“The implication for us is that there are bad guys still out there, and we’re going to have to learn how to deal with them, because our friends are getting sucked into this big-time,” said Mr Ackerman, who chairs the House subcommittee on the Middle East and South Asia.

Some of these lawmakers may move a resolution in the US Congress after the inauguration of the new president on Jan 20, strongly condemning Mumbai attacks and urging lawmakers to stop military assistance to Pakistan.

A $15 billion, 10-year aid package already proposes to attach US military assistance to Pakistan to its performance in the war against terror, authorising the US administration to stop the aid if it finds that Islamabad was not doing enough to fight terrorism.

One of the primary movers of the bill, Senator Joseph Biden, is now the vice-president-elect. He chaired the Senate’s powerful Foreign Relations Committee before the November election. A former Democratic presidential candidate, Senator John Kerry, will replace him as chairman of the committee and is also expected to back the bill to provide generous economic assistance to Pakistan.

But the move by pro-Indian American politicians can harm this effort. Diplomatic observers in Washington feel that while it may not be possible to stop US aid to Pakistan because of the country’s strategic importance, the lawmakers may succeed in attaching unfavourable conditions.

Even some of these pro-Indian lawmakers realise Pakistan’s strategic importance. Senator Menendez, while emphasising the need to attach US aid to Islamabad’s performance in the war against terror, also cautioned a gathering of Indian-Americans in New Jersey this week not to stir an India-Pakistan war because such a conflict “might lead to drastic consequences”.

He urged India to come out with all the evidence it had to link Mumbai attacks to Pakistan.“We have an obligation to bring terrorists to justice. Lashkar-e-Taiba must be brought to justice,” he said.

Congressman Pallone, however, went over the top while condemning Pakistan.

“Pakistan is essentially a failed state. I do not believe the central government controls most of the territory of the country,” he declared.

i would really hope that pakistan stop gettin aid from US. atleast we will be in a position to make independent decisions. and bec US doesnt want that to happen so the aid wont stop.

Will Pakistan be able to survive economically ?You must come to term with the fact that the Pakistan economy exists on hand outs. Without these there will be a general collapse.

For your state to survive and to flex muscle, it must first be economic & commercial muscle. Otherwise all else will fail in the long run.

Moves like these from the US / India can be expected till extremism is rooted out for Pak. This is the true threat to Pakistan and not India

Nothing's gonna happen. Even with America's blessing's our neighbours dont have the testicular fortitude to launch preemptive strike.
Sad but unfortunately true
The AF and military will rise to the occassion and lead the nation even if the democratic government cant deliver. The people cannot be defeated neither can the army which has 160 million backers.

You know stupid Musharraf has really placed Pakistan in a bad position allowing the CIA and USA military to conduct drone attacks and Black OPS to operate within the Tribal regions. Eating up the 10 billion dollar that was given to Pakistan as AID, corrupt Generals and military leadership did not spend the money wisely. Musharraf's bad policies are a major reason why Pakistan finds itself in a despicable state. It was Musharraf "indispensible ally of the West" who took orders from Western leaders...Now Western Leaders have a perception of Pakistan as a obedient country a Lamb state that will take orders from Washington or 10 Downing Street.

Now we find ourselves with a pathetic Western A** kissing Government led by Sharabi Zardari and the clowns called the PPP...Shame Inshallah Pakistan will see better days.

Damn policy makers, complete idiots. Develop the Economy just do that first...

raheel1, sir
its our poor habbit , that we keep blamming each others, for every ill's which were produced by us, ourselves!
in late gen.zia 's tenur, he blammed every bad thing to bhutto, in frist BB 's tenur, she kept blamming late gen.zia, nawaz blammed BB, now every 1 is blaming musharaf, i am qiute confident that after this govt, many will blame ASIF ZARDARI, including myself but , our problums kept growing year by year, day by day....till now!
but one thing was , very sure that there was only MUSHARAF, who stood tall against INDIA for the period of one year? i guss that was itself , a record according to our history!

musharf was the man of hounor at that time , when he showed fire against fire, but he fell because , he trusted these CIA people?

Musharraf was perhaps the best thing that could have happened to Pakistan in the situation. I wish India had leaders like this to lead with equal zeal and patriotism.

The billion of dollars he had extricated as "aid" was a great boost to both your economy and millitary. With his diplomacy and tact Pakistan continued to hunt with the hounds and run with the hare's of the world.

Thankfully the people of Pakistan did India a favour and got rid of the man.

I would like to see Pakistan invest in the "Anti-Missile Defense shield" systems, I particularly like the Patriot system engineered by the U.S It is highly accurate, very reliable, and does it's job overall well.

Now in Regards to PAF, PAF would be at wit's end if it had to fight NATO/US planes from the western border and IAF planes from the eastern Border, the last country to take on such a battle and feat was probably Nazi Germany, fighting the Russians on it's Eastern Front and the US and other Allied countries on it's Western Front...And we all know how it turned out for Germany, they were defeated and humiliated, though their soldier's fought their hearts out, and their Air Force did the most dangerous Missions.

However I understand with today's modern technology it is easier for a country to fight such battles, however Pakistan is not that country at least not yet.
I can agree with you here
If the conflict only remains on our Eastern Border with India then there is little doubt PAF is capable of success.

correction my friend,limited sucess....very limited

 

[Kharian_Beast]

KB,

I disagree. China has and continues to help us in ways that are impossible for any other nation to do so. China also has certain limitations and we should understand these. They have been the best of friends to Pakistan and this is something that should not be lost upon us. We should respect that friendship and cherish it.

While I am totally supportive of self-dependence (Chinese always advise Pakistan to go this route), it would do us good to listen to Ikram Sehgal's talk with Dr. Masood and the reasoning why China did not veto the resolution.

This was as a result of pragmatic diplomacy on the part of China and Pakistan. To insist against and then veto that resolution would have resulted in other types of pressure being applied on Pakistan. Some times a little hikmat helps as much as we may not like it upfront and may consider to be losing face. Take a listen esp. from 14:45 on:

Meray Mutabiq - 14 December 2008 | Pakistan Politics

I understand where you are coming from. While I do not underestimate the Chinese friendship in terms of trade benefit for China, it can not be a true friendship until their alliance is tested on the world stage. It has been tested and like before we see China playing Pakistan against it's competition. Let's not forget they are still a communist dictatorship and highly selfish and want our nation for it's strategic benefit, no different than the US wants it now or Soviet Union wanted it before.

The Chinese in their typical style advised Pakistan to absorb Indian pressure instead of sharply deflecting it according to Sehgal, which doesn't show anything about a deep friendship to my eyes especially in the midst of what is happening, which is far more serious than Indian threats of yesterday. Now India is coming at Pakistan with global support, China's duty was to thwart some of that with it's magnificent power on the world stage but it didn't.

Sehgal also mentioned that because of China, Russia looks at us in a better light. But the friendly Russian overtures were rejected at the highest levels and continue to be neglected, and as countries like India and Iran negotiate with their enemies, Pakistan continues to act as a lackey of the US while failing to project or secure it's own interests with others.

Ultimately, the way the Chinese voted at the UN bears resemblance to this entangling bear trap alliance with the US and our muffled responses after Mumbai. They have every right to do what fits their interests best, but not at the expense of Pakistan. We are stuck between the dragon and the eagle, now the cow wants a piece too. We can't be a strategic playground for everyone, but unfortunately the reality is that we very much are.

Most of the discussion with Sehgal suggests to me that he is also critical of the lack of strategy/action shown by GoP.

Bending over has never been a Pakistani response before, but since 2001 it has become etched into policy and driven deep into our psyche with a hammer. The environment is being created to where this becomes our habit. Screw up everything on the world stage, then have to resort to bloody conflicts which could have been avoided with a bit of brains/guts/patriotism. Iran has been beating away Israeli/US and global pressure for years with one hand while fighting Israel/US through proxies with the other. Can Pakistan ever dare to do this? These superpowers will only respect us when we give them a taste of their own medicine, not huddle next to China for support and be let down, nor to show that all the macho and bravado of Pakistan is actually a giant myth and we are softer than a sleeping kitten.

Anyways, I do thank you for your response and the video Blain.

 

[batmannow]

My last reply was to your above statement that states incursions 3 times a week , SU 30s at Karachi and Faisalabad….Give me a break Batmannow….It appears that PAF is perhaps sleeping and IAF fighters are roaming freely deep inside till F’abad and Karachi…….Sorry, but who tells you these things ? Do you really believe all this gibberish, I don’t know what your source for the said info is, but that absolutely not true…And that’s what Yellow jouno is about…



Not this article of course….....As far as the S. Mazaris critique, she has pointed out correctly about the Governments response. Again a pathetic and lame reaction by people who are at the helm of affairs….This lot will bring us down and undermine all the efforts made by people in the field…I have no doubts about that.





Sir, ADA from various bases is always established irrespective of the situation, similarly Air Def sectors, commands and many other ops centres are manned too round the clock even during peace time.

x_man; sir
frist i would like to salute you!
i am sorry , about my language, if its hurts you any way!
peopl's like you are the assest of the fourm, cant say more thn that

 

[batmannow]

Niaz---X-man,

Thank you for you posts---sanity must prevail in time of duress and Pakistan needs sane minds at the helm and we need sane minds on this web-site.

Pakistan and PAF are in no condition to take it from both ends.

It is not fair on our part to push PAF into a position of confrontation with IAF at this time. Pakistan and PAF have worked very hard to gain the lost ground to come up with an air superiority fighter and other complimentary equipment----even though I, personally donot agree with their approach----but all we have to show now is not much----our frontline combat aircrafts would be in a higher numerical and technically superior position to combat the IAF in the coming two to three years---at that time I believe that I won't have to tell my PAF pilot----Son---the nation depends on your courage---go and lay down your life for the country---nation needs your sacrifice---go die like a man.

I would rather say two years from now---son----go show the enemy what we are made up of---you have the machine, material and equipment at your command that you have worked so hard for----go tell the enemy it is time for an equalizer----and also I want you to come back home alive---and let the enemy take a trip to walhallah.

As usual india has screwed up again by starting banging the war drums---thank you very much---you just let us get off the hook the upteenth time. The united nations and world coalition would have completely choked pakistan right now----but we do have some breathing room.

My personal belief is that strong statements coming out of pakistan will not be helpful to the cause----I have never been a Zardari fan---but I do like his low key response---going slightly to the weak side---I believe that it is a strategic game that Zardari is playing at this time with india---remember in the past we used to talk like----we will take the eyes out the person who looked at us mean----we will break the face of the entity who looked at us with a crooked eye and atypicaL PAKISTANI STATEMENTS coming out the mouths of president and prime minister---.

The real problem is that india knows and understands that pakistan has somehow or the other slipped out of the noose that india had prepared for it----and it has become be-wildered and does not know which direction to go.

MastanKhan; hounrable , sir

i guss, no one is in position to , go for a real air assullt, but "uncle sam" loves to do dirty things...., they do take chances, & i am prety confident, that at least once "uncle bharat & uncle sam" could try to take things in thier own way!
its a typicaly, highly favoured option for them, its realy good to make PAF looking for IAF in the skies, a perfect time to strike "pak nucklear sites "from the other way around?

i am really sory, that i feel that only "strategic game" ZARDARI is playing !
its with, the "awam" & with "pakistan armed forces", he cant play with masters! i guss?

 

[fatman17]

Care to explain what your trying to say...In my post I am simply being reasonable. My point is clear.

I would like to add that I believe the PAF is a formidable force, and I believe they are one of the best Air Forces in the world, they are not at fault here. I really blame the Pakistan's Government and policy makers, they have failed to raise Pakistan to new heights, to new economic power, and self-dependence and reliance.

So stop thinking I'm belittling PAF pilots/airmen, it is simply a hard task to battle US/NATO War Planes on our Western front and IAF on our Eastern Front in a serious/major conflict.

Fatman your silly assertions are showing how bad your judgments are...With all respect of course...[/QUOTE]

my comments are in response to Mastan Khan's post....and you are welcome!!!

 

[fatman17]

Musharraf was perhaps the best thing that could have happened to Pakistan in the situation. I wish India had leaders like this to lead with equal zeal and patriotism.

The billion of dollars he had extricated as "aid" was a great boost to both your economy and millitary. With his diplomacy and tact Pakistan continued to hunt with the hounds and run with the hare's of the world.

Thankfully the people of Pakistan did India a favour and got rid of the man

Hawkeye - i agree with you to a certain extent but "hunting with the hounds, and running with the hares policy" has had its negative repurcusions like the FATA quagmire.