What have we done to ourselves?

[vsdoc]

@Bang Galore my point is very limited.

By accepting Partition we arguably prevented a bigger bloodbath in the short term.

But we gave them the time and space and opportunity to arm for posterity.

Shortsighted. Stupid. Selfish.

Criminal.

 

[VCheng]

@Bang Galore my point is very limited.

By accepting Partition we arguably prevented a bigger bloodbath in the short term.

But we gave them the time and space and opportunity to arm for posterity.

Shortsighted. Stupid. Selfish.

Criminal.

So what lies in the future, since that is where we are all going?

 

[vsdoc]

So what lies in the future, since that is where we are all going?

It is too late now.

There is going to be ultimately no middle ground now. No compromise.

 

[VCheng]

It is too late now.

There is going to be ultimately no middle ground now. No compromise.

Sir, it is never too late for anything in international geopolitics. Never. And compromises can always be found given the right incentives and motivations.

 

[Bang Galore]

Yes, but if they ever felt their liberty both as an individual and as community is under threat they could migrate to part A. It could have costed them their traditional places of worship to the worst, but they could retained their religious freedom.

You are suggesting a possible depopulation of Hindus & Sikhs from the full province of Bengal & Punjab & move them into the Gangetic plains? Why would anyone accept that ? It was, as you know, Jinnah's proposition, one that Mountbatten dismissed as unrealistic on the grounds that if Muslims wanted to secede simply because they would be in a minority, he saw no merit in allowing Muslims to rule over Hindus & Sikhs

You caught me there. But given Calcutta was a considerable Hindu majority area, chances were slim that it could go to C zone if Congress fought hard.

I thought you were talking about the whole province. If you are saying that Calcutta wouldn't go to the C zone, then what merit in the argument that all other areas of Bengal should be under Muslim majoritarian rule. Partition of the province was based on the argument that you made for Calcutta.

Every thing that you have written here is impractical ; unworkable
and HARMFUL to Hindus

The basic idea behind Jinnah's support to the Cabinet Mission plan
was to BUY TIME to clean up Punjab ; Bengal Assam and Kashmir
and then declare independence

Your suggestion that Calcutta would not go to the C zone is ABSURD

Calcutta would have been the capital of a UNITED Bengal
which would have been Muslim Majority province

Similarly you have NO QUALMS about suggesting
Hindus and SIkhs to migrate from the Punjab province to the A zone
THERE BY handing over ENTIRE Punjab to Muslims
on a PLATTER

It's a discussion, loosen up a bit. What's with all the caps? Your point is better made without it.

 

[vsdoc]

Sir, it is never too late for anything in international geopolitics. Never. And compromises can always be found given the right incentives and motivations.

Sir this is nowhere close to "international geopolitics"

This is millennial bloodlust.

@Oscar

 

[GURU DUTT]

Sir, it is never too late for anything in international geopolitics. Never. And compromises can always be found given the right incentives and motivations.

no even that stage is well past pakistani elite had been given too many opportunities and all the time india took initiative for peace but was backstabbed after each such initiative and thats because pakistanies want to keep the bloodfeud alive and any price for them to make india suffer is agreeable to them dont beleve me look at your history

 

[scorpionx]

You are suggesting a possible depopulation of Hindus & Sikhs from the full province of Bengal & Punjab & move them into the Gangetic plains? Why would anyone accept that ? It was, as you know, Jinnah's proposition, one that Mountbatten dismissed as unrealistic on the grounds that if Muslims wanted to secede simply because they would be in a minority, he saw no merit in allowing Muslims to rule over Hindus & Sikhs

Depopulation? Not at all. What I am suggesting is what if three autonomous zones had come with

1. Constitutional guarantee to religious minorities for basic rights to practice except sensitive cases like loud music in temples and mosques,beef slaughter, forced conversion etc.*
2. Based upon their population share, reservation in government jobs for the minorities.

What I believe, that had we continued with the above set up for let say another ten years, all three zones would have finally dissolved, replaced with newer ones, perhaps on linguistic basis. It could pay us larger dividends in the end than that we are having today, in terms of defense and foreign policies and Industrial development. Most important part, it would be an India minus direct action day, blood bath, rape of millions that fractured the faith and mutual trust between the two communities forever.Just my imaginations.

*Only in these special cases, a minority if feels his liberty is threatened he could be accommodated in the other zone.

 

[hunter_hunted]

India has tried its best to improve ties with Pakistan

We have nothing to regret

I can give few examples as a starter

1: Occupying Kashmir against the will of Kashmiris
2: Cutting the Eastern wing of Pakistan
3: Using Afghanistan to spread terrorism in Pakistan
4: Tried to play the same game u played in 1971

and if this is your best then we have nothing more to say .

 

[VCheng]

Sir this is nowhere close to "international geopolitics"

This is millennial bloodlust.

@Oscar

If one looks at the issues between Pakistan and India, it is quite clear that international geopolitics is at play here too, quite predictably, in fact, past, present and the future.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Depopulation? Not at all. What I am suggesting is what if three autonomous zones had come with

1. Constitutional guarantee to religious minorities for basic rights to practice except sensitive cases like loud music in temples and mosques,beef slaughter, forced conversion etc.*
2. Based upon their population share, reservation in government jobs for the minorities.

What I believe, that had we continued with the above set up for let say another ten years, all three zones would have finally dissolved, replaced with newer ones, perhaps on linguistic basis. It could pay us larger dividends in the end than that we are having today, in terms of defense and foreign policies and Industrial development. Most important part, it would be an India minus direct action day, blood bath, rape of millions that fractured the faith and mutual trust between the two communities forever.Just my imaginations.

*Only in these special cases, a minority if feels his liberty is threatened he could be accommodated in the other zone.

Here is an alternate IMAGINATION given the people who we were dealing with

So this is how we would have started

First A WEAK Central government is sworn According to Cabinet Mission plan

But since it is a weak government the powerful states of Punjab and Bengal
( Both Muslim majority states ) blackmail it at every step
( Law and order would be with the states )
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you aware of the FAILURE of the Interim government at the Centre
in 1946 -47 when Muslim League Members blocked every proposal
while being ministers in the Central Government

Independence Day: Why Partition was a good thing for India - The Economic Times

Ultimately this convinced the Congress that They could not work Together
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now come to the Framing of the Constitution

India took Two and Half years WITHOUT the obstructionist Muslim League present around

How much time it would have taken to frame a constitution with Muslim League around

Just enough to CLEAN up Bengal Punjab Assam and Kashmir
and then declare independence
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now HOW would have the REST of the Country seen such a DYSFUNCTIONAL government at the Centre

How would the South and West would have responded to the Hindu Muslim Problems of
North And East

They would have questioned the Usefulness of living in India
and would seek to opt out ; seeing no prospects for development

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Without a Strong Central Government ; No governance and development work would have started

North East states like Nagaland would have seceded
As we know Nagaland ; Manipur have had secessionist movements from the 50s

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A dysfunctional country ALWAYS putting out fires and handling crises
and centrifugal forces would have simply imploded in TEN years

Basically this is what Jinnah Wanted

 

[vsdoc]

If one looks at the issues between Pakistan and India, it is quite clear that international geopolitics is at play here too, quite predictably, in fact, past, present and the future.

Yes, but we are not the ones playing it.

Ours is pure bloodlust. Nothing higher or fancier.

Iran would have had the same, if it had only part converted.

 

[VCheng]

Yes, but we are not the ones playing it.

Ours is pure bloodlust. Nothing higher or fancier.

Iran would have had the same, if it had only part converted.

You'd be surprised how all sides are playing by the same rules, no matter what is claimed.

 

[GURU DUTT]

If one looks at the issues between Pakistan and India, it is quite clear that international geopolitics is at play here too, quite predictably, in fact, past, present and the future.

tell me one thing did USA or russia asked pakistan to invade kashmir when it was getting it thru peacefull mean ?

was it USA or russia that asked pakistan to attack india in 1965 by covert oprations ?

point is it was the revenge and hate obsession against india in pakistan as a nation that prompted your security establishment to reapetdlli shoot there nation in there own foot and funny thing is all of such people got away without paying the price or there blunders , plunders and surrenders .... ever wonderred why

 

[vsdoc]

You'd be surprised how all sides are playing by the same rules, no matter what is claimed.

A few days ago I was given an eye opener about how mega corporates, foreign governments and special interest groups play things and how big they are and how little we still are.

But what's between the larger populaces is still bloodlust.