What could the PAF had seen in the Thunder....

[krash]

I am starting this thread in order to try and settle, once and for all, a ludicrous argument which has been, quit frankly, very annoying for the past many days. However my patience has run all but out for the posters on this forum and hence I request (read: demand) that any replies that may follow this post must be absent of any childish, absurd or ill-thought-out arguments. Read what is and what will be written here carefully, read it again and then try to formulate an educated and an intelligent response. All the points of argument that I am about to present are not new. They have been presented again and again but due to the persistence from some of our fellow members to completely ignore them ill post them here one more time.

Arguments as to why the Thunder is not a good investment viz-a-viz the PAF in light of the IAF:
From what I've read it seems to me (correct me if im wrong) that the primary premise being given behind this argument revolves around the fact that "the Thunder cannot match the enemies draw i.e. MKI/Rafael" and so the Pakistan Airforce should have gone searching the foreign markets looking for a solution. As is apparent, this argument is overly simplistic, extremely ingenuous and blind to many other factors surrounding the PAF-IAF scenario and the Thunder itself.

Firstly all the people who's concept and knowledge of warfare spouts from the hit strategy title Generals would be well advised to start reading some good books on the subject before posting. Any good book on the battles fought over Europe during the second World War would be a good start. Let me also assure them that in any plausible future air war scenario the Thunder will never be put against the MKI/Rafael mano-a-mano, barring any freak occurrences. The Thunder will be supported with a gang of other birds watching it's back and every move that the enemy would and could make. The vice-versa will hold just as true.http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...e-invested-more-j-10s-rather-than-jf-17s.html This is to say that the Thunder and the MKI/Rafael will be cogs in their respective machines rather than the machines themselves, cards in a hand rather than the hand itself. One hand will be played against the other; the PAF will be played against the IAF. All will depend on how well the hand is played and how the table unfolds. It does not simply depend on how well one card or every card is matched to one card or every card of the other. Warfare is hardly ever that boring or that simplistic. And what it is not is a simple number game. All the maneuverability of the Gnat couldn't save it from the lumbering and obsolete Saber, all the sonic booms couldn't save the Fishbeds from the dumb bombs (heck they never saw any combat) and all the might of the IAF couldn't hold back the minuscule PAF. Warfare, though gruesome and distasteful, is never artless. It is a playing field for artists such as Hannibal, Salahuddin and Subodai. It is where the brilliance of mind or method is always more important than the might of ones arm. Strengths against weaknesses and weaknesses against strengths is how one always plays this game. Today's word is Strategy.

That said lets not forget that the Thunder is a pretty formidable bird; A potent radar, a plathora of AA and AG weapons, superb maneuverability by many accounts, all sorts of gadgets and gizmos, a very good man-machine interface, a pretty awesome looking cockpit, a top-down view to die for and all this in a price which is pretty unbelievable (read: many birds instead of a few and no....a handful of SU-30s, Typhoons or Rafaels will not make do). And it is being produced in-house but that will be discussed later.
All the stats and performance perimeters, thanks to Antibody, can been found on this very forum: http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/71435-jf-17-thunder-information-pool.html. I need not Read and educate yourself. The Thunder vs MKI scenarios have also been debated to death, use the search engine. It's not far fetched at all for a Thunder pilot to call a splash on an MKI/Rafael with an SD-10b. You only need to read around how the world has genuinely been surprised by this bird and they don't even know the half of it. There is no need for me to post any of this here. There are many threads already made for this purpose.

The 'apparently not so apparent' benefits that the Thunder has brought with itself:
It's been dragged around this forum time and time again that the Thunder is a major step away from sanctions, and this is with good reason. For anyone to not realize how big an advantage this is would be absurd. The overwhelming disparity that we see today between the PAF and the IAF started exactly with this daemon. For a decade we stood stagnant if not regressed while the IAF grew stronger. They bought new toys while we struggled to keep the ones we had flying. We filled our squadrons with F-7s which should have been F-16s. The F-16s which could not face a couple of Mig-29s because a weapon which had been a staple for every other respectable airforce since long was not in our arsenal i.e. the BVR missile. We went from "technologically superior" to "technologically inferior". In short we were left hanging high and dry with no options in sight. These were desperate times for the PAF and in effect for the whole Pakistani military establishment. More desperate than we had ever seen before. The PAF had come out of two wars with better standing. Today we have a very reasonable bird in our nest which is only going to improve and it is ours to keep. Anyone who downplays or ignores this factor is a moron if not clinically insane.

Pakistan is a country which has not seen much initiative taken or legacy made since the ill-thought-out nationalization of the 70s and the times which followed. Our industry has only crumbled, our institutions have only gone down under, everything has only been wasted. You have been ranting about it, I have been ranting about it. The Thunder has brought with itself an industry which was little heard off, if at all, in Pakistan. For us to step into the aircraft industry brings immense technological and economical implications. This is straightforward progress. Progress which you have been crying for. And this is merely the first step. If recognized and tended to this would spell many a good thing for Pakistan's future, even when disregarding its military significance. The JF-17 could very well spawn a JF-18 and then a JF-19 and so on.

Ergo what the Thunder is is more than just a good weapon. Its advantages go beyond the battle field and they are many. The people who envisioned this project were not only brilliant but also visionaries and as is this case with all visionaries their actions are seldom understood by the people of their time but will always be praised and thanked by the people who come after.

 

[karan.1970]

what was the need of another thread..? All this has been spoken multiple times in the JF 17 thread...

 

[krash]

what was the need of another thread..? All this has been spoken multiple times in the JF 17 thread...

Go to http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/68207-jf-17-thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-4-a.html, read, understand, come back, object; report, not post to increase your count, leave.

 

[ejaz007]

In my view JF-17 program is the best thing that happened to PAF so far. The question is why? Today I shall limit my answer to one aspect only and that is money saving in the longer run. How is PAF going to save money. Infact it is really easy. At present we have F-7, A-5 (replaced) and different classes of Mirage. To maintain Mirages which are own main strike fighters we need to spend a lot of money buying spares not easily available, then buying old fighters to maintain the fleet numbers and last but not least to upgrade them.

Now what shall happen is when we shall replace F-7 and Mirages (except ROSE upgraded Mirages and some newer F-7's) with JF-17 we shall have only one type of brand new fighter with spares either manufactured in Pakistan or easily available via China. Then we shall not need to be running around the world looking for spares.

Thus the money saved can be used to fund future upgrades or buy some new fighter systems.

 

[Awesome]

JF-17 was meant to replace F-7s and F-6s, not be a front-line fighter but a backbone fighter.

For Frontline we have upgraded F-16 and now probably seem like moving on to J-10 and then perhaps J-20.

By the time we hit J-20, India will be on Pak-FA and we will be a lot more evenly matched at that point. The role Mig-21 and F-7s play in the PAF/IAF will be played by JF-17 here and perhaps LCA there, or they may stick to upgraded Mig-21s if LCA does not work out.

 

[Vritra]

I believe it is a good investment.

An aircraft that can replace 50% of PAF's older aircraft types in multiple roles? With international input without stringent control over R&D? And with capability growth? That's not only a good investment, that's a smart investment.

I read the information pool. I must say, I still have doubts about the JF-17's performance in BVR combat against heavy Flanker/Eurocanard-type aircraft (and this goes beyond just detection and fire, which most people seem to think what BVR combat is about). It sounds like JF-17s will be the launch platform, with other JF-17s hanging back (or perhaps J-10Bs, even) doing the active homing and jamming, but the interoperatability leaves the aircraft with active sensors vulnerable against long-range anti-radiation missiles. And it does look like the sensor range will not be nearly long enough to nullify a BVR threat. So it will be interesting to see where the aircraft goes with respect to sensors and countermeasures in the next decade

 

[Pakistanisage]

The JF-17 Thunder gives Pakistan many advantages and its usefulness should be taken into account keeping all the facts in mind.

First of all, JF-17 is a Multi-role fighter which is designed to replace the aging F7's and Mirage III and IV's at a low cost with the latest technology used. Being a Multi-role fighter bomber, it can be used for CAS purposes as well.

 

[razgriz19]

I believe it is a good investment.

An aircraft that can replace 50% of PAF's older aircraft types in multiple roles? With international input without stringent control over R&D? And with capability growth? That's not only a good investment, that's a smart investment.

I read the information pool. I must say, I still have doubts about the JF-17's performance in BVR combat against heavy Flanker/Eurocanard-type aircraft (and this goes beyond just detection and fire, which most people seem to think what BVR combat is about). It sounds like JF-17s will be the launch platform, with other JF-17s hanging back (or perhaps J-10Bs, even) doing the active homing and jamming, but the interoperatability leaves the aircraft with active sensors vulnerable against long-range anti-radiation missiles. And it does look like the sensor range will not be nearly long enough to nullify a BVR threat. So it will be interesting to see where the aircraft goes with respect to sensors and countermeasures in the next decade

I agree with you, PAF need to put a decent electronic warfare suit in that bird yo increase its survibility in BVR combat.

 

[MastanKhan]

Krash,

I would say that it is a good effort on your part---. But as you have asked the question---similiarly---you have also answered it as well---.

My good man----it is not easy to find faults in your loved ones---. Ask a father to find fault in his only child or a mother to do the same for only son---.

JF17 is the only child that pakistan has had so far--even though it as an adopted hybrid---but so what---a child is a child---it does not know who the father or the mother is---it just needs love and affection---. I see all you pakistani brethren fighting over their baby---it gets to be so funny---just like a moher talking about her 'fugly' baby as if it is the most beautiful---as if the father arguing how intelligent his son is---even though the world thinks of it as an 'idiot'.

Now---people---I see the steam coming out----so---relax----as it often happens---the ugly ducking becomes a beautiful swan---and that goofball fool of a son---becomes the real man in time of need---.

Have an air force of 300 JF17's along with complimentary heavy hitters----heavy hitters means heavy hitters---then you got something---otherwise being in a position of coming from behind all the time is not good strategy.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Now this is a good threat to discuss where we must go beyond Thunder at the same time.

I think Chinese Flankers (J-11, J-15) would be best option once Chinese fulfill there needs. Particularly for the Navy. J-15 must be pursued. Though anti-ship weapons have been integrated with Thunders as well but it lacks range and payload which flankers can bring into the equation.

Apart from being used in Anti-ship role this aerial beast designed by the Soviets/Russian has equal potential in other role as well. A true heavy duty multi-role platform that can stay airborne longer, can hit longer and can hit with massive power despite being in lower numbers than Thunders in a particular mission.

Availability is a critical factor and Chinese flankers have no issue there as well particularly with the integration of WS-10 power plants. In future Pakistan will be in position to upgrade these with AESA radars and more lethal weapons of Chinese Origin.

European platforms are superior in sensor fusion and avionics suits but expensive as well along with being prone to sanctions. But still, I would love to see PAF pursuing Typhoons particularly when Europe has been hit with Euro-zone crisis and Germans are also feeling pressure and desperate for some financial liquidity.

So, What you guys think?

 

[Vritra]

I think Chinese Flankers (J-11, J-15) would be best option once Chinese fulfill there needs. Particularly for the Navy. J-15 must be pursued. Though anti-ship weapons have been integrated with Thunders as well but it lacks range and payload which flankers can bring into the equation.

Apart from being used in Anti-ship role this aerial beast designed by the Soviets/Russian has equal potential in other role as well. A true heavy duty multi-role platform that can stay airborne longer, can hit longer and can hit with massive power despite being in lower numbers than Thunders in a particular mission.

Flankers in general are many times more expensive to maintain than small, single-engined fighters. I doubt the J-11/J-15 will give the PAF/PN capabilities that offset the acquisition + lifecycle costs. Multirail launchers on the J-10s also nullify (to a certain extent) the air combat payload advantage Flankers generally possess. Range isn't an issue, either, unless Pakistan are planning on invading their neighbours. Which I doubt. Smaller, lighter, and easier-to-buy/maintain thunders acquired in larger numbers would prove superior for area denial and strike tactics.

So basically, acquire Sinoflankers purely for a naval strike role? Not worth it.

European platforms are superior in sensor fusion and avionics suits but expensive as well along with being prone to sanctions. But still, I would love to see PAF pursuing Typhoons particularly when Europe has been hit with Euro-zone crisis and Germans are also feeling pressure and desperate for some financial liquidity.

Despite the crisis, half the Eurofighter partner nations are supportive of hitting Pakistan with added sanctions. Add to that the content of American technology in the Typhoon (small, but not nearly negligible enough not to factor in) and Pakistan would have a tough time acquiring them. As of now, I believe Pakistan is better off focusing on the J-10B acquisition.

Besides, weren't there plans to acquire some sort of Chinese 3.5/4th generation stealth aircraft as well? J-2X or some such thing. What would be the point of either the Sinoflanker or the Typhoon in the face of the new bird?

 

[OrionHunter]

with JF-17 we shall have only one type of brand new fighter with spares either manufactured in Pakistan. Then we shall not need to be running around the world looking for spares.

Good point. Standardization is important and advantageous too. But just one type of fighter aircraft cannot fit various roles that include close air support, air superiority, DPSA, interdiction, air-to-air combat and so on. Aircraft are built for specific roles.

The JF-17 is a multi role combat aircraft, which means it is only suitable for CAS and air-to-air combat.

Therefore, equipping the entire air force with a single type of aircraft would not conform to Pakistan's air warfare doctrine vis a vis India.

 

[Donatello]

Flankers in general are many times more expensive to maintain than small, single-engined fighters. I doubt the J-11/J-15 will give the PAF/PN capabilities that offset the acquisition + lifecycle costs. Multirail launchers on the J-10s also nullify (to a certain extent) the air combat payload advantage Flankers generally possess. Range isn't an issue, either, unless Pakistan are planning on invading their neighbours. Which I doubt. Smaller, lighter, and easier-to-buy/maintain thunders acquired in larger numbers would prove superior for area denial and strike tactics.

So basically, acquire Sinoflankers purely for a naval strike role? Not worth it.




Despite the crisis, half the Eurofighter partner nations are supportive of hitting Pakistan with added sanctions. Add to that the content of American technology in the Typhoon (small, but not nearly negligible enough not to factor in) and Pakistan would have a tough time acquiring them. As of now, I believe Pakistan is better off focusing on the J-10B acquisition.

Besides, weren't there plans to acquire some sort of Chinese 3.5/4th generation stealth aircraft as well? J-2X or some such thing. What would be the point of either the Sinoflanker or the Typhoon in the face of the new bird?

When did that happen?

 

[krash]

Krash,

I would say that it is a good effort on your part---. But as you have asked the question---similiarly---you have also answered it as well---.

My good man----it is not easy to find faults in your loved ones---. Ask a father to find fault in his only child or a mother to do the same for only son---.

JF17 is the only child that pakistan has had so far--even though it as an adopted hybrid---but so what---a child is a child---it does not know who the father or the mother is---it just needs love and affection---. I see all you pakistani brethren fighting over their baby---it gets to be so funny---just like a moher talking about her 'fugly' baby as if it is the most beautiful---as if the father arguing how intelligent his son is---even though the world thinks of it as an 'idiot'.

Now---people---I see the steam coming out----so---relax----as it often happens---the ugly ducking becomes a beautiful swan---and that goofball fool of a son---becomes the real man in time of need---.

Have an air force of 300 JF17's along with complimentary heavy hitters----heavy hitters means heavy hitters---then you got something---otherwise being in a position of coming from behind all the time is not good strategy.

There is also the case of a father who sees but naught. Sees disappointment and disgrace when there is little or none. Fails to find pride and acknowledgment where it is due. Sees a failure where the others see success.

"Have an air force of 300 JF17's along with complimentary heavy hitters----heavy hitters means heavy hitters---then you got something---otherwise being in a position of coming from behind all the time is not good strategy".

That is the mantra sir.

 

[HANI]

Krash,

I would say that it is a good effort on your part---. But as you have asked the question---similiarly---you have also answered it as well---.

My good man----it is not easy to find faults in your loved ones---. Ask a father to find fault in his only child or a mother to do the same for only son---.

JF17 is the only child that pakistan has had so far--even though it as an adopted hybrid---but so what---a child is a child---it does not know who the father or the mother is---it just needs love and affection---. I see all you pakistani brethren fighting over their baby---it gets to be so funny---just like a moher talking about her 'fugly' baby as if it is the most beautiful---as if the father arguing how intelligent his son is---even though the world thinks of it as an 'idiot'.

Now---people---I see the steam coming out----so---relax----as it often happens---the ugly ducking becomes a beautiful swan---and that goofball fool of a son---becomes the real man in time of need---.

Have an air force of 300 JF17's along with complimentary heavy hitters----heavy hitters means heavy hitters---then you got something---otherwise being in a position of coming from behind all the time is not good strategy.

never expect better anr from u on this topic and as expected mr farooqi 1 joins the party with a thanx