What could have PAF done in Kargil war

[Goodperson]

Both sides probably push the limits on and off when it comes to flying too close to the others airspace or even violating it - as the article posted by Blain suggested, of Indian fighters getting locked on but not being engaged.

In fact, the reaction from the defense attache's and other diplomats taken to view the wreckage in Pakistan (no question over the location, unlike what the Indians initially said) clearly indicates that India's actions were uncalled for.


I am also not certain how the Indian claim of 'hostile action' can be regarded as true, given that the wreckage was in Pakistani territory, which meant that:

1. The Atlantique was moving away from Indian airspace towards Pakistani airspace (if we consider the allegation that it violated restricted airspace to be true), and was shot by the IAF while doing so.

- If this was the case, then it is quite frankly tantamount to shooting an unarmed individual in the back - which is the only plausible explanation to account for the wreckage falling in Pakistani territory. How can an aircraft turning away and flying back into Pakistan (if the allegation of airspace violation is true) be committing a 'hostile act'?

2. The Atlantique it was far enough in Pakistani territory that even after being shot allegedly moving towards Indian territory, the wreckage fell inside Pakistan.

- In this case the IAF position is again indefensible, given that it blatantly shot down an aircraft that was nowhere close to a threat nor violating Indian airspace.

In either case, the Indian version of events seems a distortion.

Some wreckage was found in indian territory too I guess

http://vayu-sena-aux.tripod.com/thumbs/FT0016749_t.jpg

 

[Goodperson]

Nawaz knew - General Kyani (not the COAS) who came out to criticize Musharraf after retirement, actually let slip that Nawaz was informed and even said that he would not own up to Kargil if it failed.

Nawaz did exactly that as we can see.

Nawaz categoric comments are available let me know if you want links.
Why was the report (Even edited or parts) not published as demanded by Nawaz.

 

[Humanoid]

You are first assuming that the allegation of violation was first true, and that secondly both sides desisted from what seem to be almost routine incidents.

A cessation of hostilities is a cessation - there is no room for 'hurt feelings' in order to somehow justify doing something that, to quote the diplomats taken to the scene, "was nowhere near in line".

And I disagree with the part about 'towing the host nation's line'. These were comments made anonymously to a third party news organization, and in that article those diplomats also criticized Pakistan, and its position on the incident, so your argument doesn't fly at all.

I do agree with you that the Indian Military did take a cheap shot at an easy target that it would not have in other circumstances - but again, that does not take away from the fact that hostilities had ceased, and India's reaction was 'out of line'.

lets live thru the life of indian military planners..
post Kargil they had to face heat internally as to how they could have missed the infiltrations of Militants and Pakistani regulars on the Kargil front.....
there had been accusations of intelligence lapses ..........

So if a reconnaissance aircraft comes close to your border which has important strategic installations like Trombey Nuclear Reactors, World's Largest Greenfield Refinery so and so forth.. in a post Kargil scenario .. the regular desisting from routine scenario does not simply hold.... you have to understand this from the standpoint of military planner... it is true that if this has happened in any other time this would have not found any mentioning anywhere other than the log book of Radar post... but after an incident which almost triggered an all out war between two nuclear power... PAF decision to send a strategic aircraft so close to Indian border is plain and simple playing with the lives of their individuals.. bcos i don't believe PAF top leaders did not anticipate this kind of retaliation...from IAF

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

bcos i don't believe PAF top leaders did not anticipate this kind of retaliation...from IAF

If they anticipated the Indians deviating from the norm and taking a cheap shot I doubt they would have sent the Atlantique without air cover.

The time for retaliation was during Kargil - though as Salim admitted, the rule of thumb ratio (casualties) of attackers to defenders in mountainous terrain is 11 to 1, so perhaps there was a reason for resorting to this.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Some wreckage was found in indian territory too I guess

http://vayu-sena-aux.tripod.com/thumbs/FT0016749_t.jpg

The majority in Pakistan - some suggested that the Indians in fact transported wreckage over to their side from the Pakistani site.

Regardless of whether the latter claim is true, the majority of the wreckage and the views of the diplomats taken to the site do indicate that India first lied about the location, lied abut hostile intent, and most likely took a cheap shot.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Nawaz categoric comments are available let me know if you want links.
Why was the report (Even edited or parts) not published as demanded by Nawaz.

Musharraf's categorical comments are also available, I am sure you don't need me to provide links.

I think the fact that this General was present at the meeting, and made his comments in the process of criticizing Musharraf indicates that NS was indeed in the know.

 

[Humanoid]

If they anticipated the Indians deviating from the norm and taking a cheap shot I doubt they would have sent the Atlantique without air cover.

The time for retaliation was during Kargil - though as Salim admitted, the rule of thumb ratio of attackers to defenders in mountainous terrain is 11 to 1, so perhaps there was a reason for resorting to this.

I am sure if Indian Military and Political leaders had anticipated what Pakistan would be doing after the Lahore Pact ..i.e. deviating from the norm and taking a cheap shot.. they would not have left their guard down in Kargil... so .. Pakistan got a treatment through the same medicine that they invented ..

 

[Skywalker]

Guys first of all Atlantique shoot down coradly by IAF was from PN not PAF, secondly we all remember the video file shown on PTV time n again about the indians were collecting the wreckage from th crash side and when they saw Pakistani helicopters landing at the reash area teyrushed back to their chopper and with some pieces of wreckage and fled away.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I am sure if Indian Military and Political leaders had anticipated what Pakistan would be doing after the Lahore Pact ..i.e. deviating from the norm and taking a cheap shot.. they would not have left their guard down in Kargil... so .. Pakistan got a treatment through the same medicine that they invented ..

I don't think Pakistan was shooting any unarmed Indian soldiers in the back as they were running away. Y'all lost your soldiers in straight up combat.

If you want to talk cheap shots in the political process and dialogue context, Nehru's unilateral rejection of the plebiscite demanded in the UNSC resolutions on Kashmir and in the Instrument of Accession, after rigged elections in Kashmir, was the original 'cheap shot'.

 

[chindit]

If they anticipated the Indians deviating from the norm and taking a cheap shot I doubt they would have sent the Atlantique without air cover. .

I dont think it is 'deviating from the norm' if forces have been on high alert just a month and a half of major hostilities. even in previous wars, aircraft were interecepted or shot down even after end of hostilities. pak army lost a one or two aop aircraft after 65 and 71 because they strayed into indian territory. months after the war.

so if the paf/pn expected iaf fighters not to take up the challenge when the atlantique came over into indian territory then they only have themselves to blame.

the blame i think lies more on the PN for not informing the paf of its intent to carry out sorties close to the border.

The other thing is that there has been considerable time from the point of interception to shoot down. a whole load of radio communication would have taken place and would have been recorded as well by both sides. yet neither side released these recordings. it suggests both have things to hide.

even radars will be able to record movements - the PN has to just release these recordings if they wanted to substantiate that their aircraft never crossed the border. but they didnt.

 

[chindit]

I don't think Pakistan was shooting any unarmed Indian soldiers in the back as they were running away. Y'all lost your soldiers in straight up combat.
.

no but they did shoot down an unarmed civilian aircraft in 1965. the aircraft was piston engined beechcraft flying over indian territory - posed no threat and was in civlian colors. yet paf jets shot down the aircraft killing many civilians.

 

[Humanoid]

I don't think Pakistan was shooting any unarmed Indian soldiers in the back as they were running away. Y'all lost your soldiers in straight up combat.

If you want to talk cheap shots in the political process and dialogue context, Nehru's unilateral rejection of the plebiscite demanded in the UNSC resolutions on Kashmir and in the Instrument of Accession, after rigged elections in Kashmir, was the original 'cheap shot'.

Cummon now you are opening a Pandora's box.. the list is long on both sides and lets not go thru .. it .. but .. taking hostage of an unsuspecting ..patrol team of IA and killing them cold blooded and mutilating their genital parts so that they cant reach "jannat" is not the highest example of gallantry ..

 

[IceCold]

Cummon now you are opening a Pandora's box.. the list is long on both sides and lets not go thru .. it .. but .. taking hostage of an unsuspecting ..patrol team of IA and killing them cold blooded and mutilating their genital parts so that they cant reach "jannat" is not the highest example of gallantry ..

Now hold on for a second? when did this happen? i guess you seem to be pretty much inspired by the bollywood movies where Pakistan is the Satan.

 

[IceCold]

I am sure if Indian Military and Political leaders had anticipated what Pakistan would be doing after the Lahore Pact ..i.e. deviating from the norm and taking a cheap shot.. they would not have left their guard down in Kargil... so .. Pakistan got a treatment through the same medicine that they invented ..

Dude there are no cheap shots in strategic warfare and if NS wouldnt be such as jack *** that he is, we would then have seen who have got what treatment.

 

[Goodperson]

I don't think Pakistan was shooting any unarmed Indian soldiers in the back as they were running away. Y'all lost your soldiers in straight up combat.

If you want to talk cheap shots in the political process and dialogue context, Nehru's unilateral rejection of the plebiscite demanded in the UNSC resolutions on Kashmir and in the Instrument of Accession, after rigged elections in Kashmir, was the original 'cheap shot'.

AM, Why was the need to shoot also why Invite Vajpayee to Lahore by Pakistani PM if PA was supposed to carryout operations in Kargil?

PA soldiers were place on higher mountains and Indians were at lower layer hence they managed to shoot Indians.

Plebiscite was agreed by Nehru in those times, with conditionalities required to be met by Pakistan which was never met. Any way I will not reply more on Kashmir in this thread.