What could have PAF done in Kargil war

[Humanoid]

Dude there are no cheap shots in strategic warfare and if NS wouldnt be such as jack *** that he is, we would then have seen who have got what treatment.

ha ha Strategic warfare.. after inviting a guest in your country .. and then .. putting dagger in the back... i was under the impression that.. .in Islam .. a guest is next to GOD.. since you are justifying everything under the umbrella of "Strategic Warfare" ..lets not even bring out Kashmir then... n i m not sure what NS is.. he pulled out at a time when anyway .. we were on ascending despite suffering casualties and even if we didnt make any headway .. things would have turn worse for both the countries.... I don't know what Pakistan gained out of Kargil bcos it actually jolted the entire Indian Military Establishment .. and then India went into a weapons buying frenzy to close all the weaknesses that were exposed by Kargil.... so I guessed it was .. a worthy wake-up call..

 

[Neo]

Right sir it never happened.. It was the false propaganda by IA against the Freedom Fighters...
And i have 1 more news that Atlantique was shot down near Lahore.. Look how cowards are they... Its the limit of their cowardiness that after shooting Atlantique over Lahore they tried to steal wreckage also...

Sarcasm is lost on me, so please stick to the facts from neutral sources.
Thanks.

 

[chindit]

Cummon now you are opening a Pandora's box.. the list is long on both sides and lets not go thru .. it .. but .. taking hostage of an unsuspecting ..patrol team of IA and killing them cold blooded and mutilating their genital parts so that they cant reach "jannat" is not the highest example of gallantry ..

I for one dont believe this. if they did it, what is the need for them return the bodies? they could have said the bodies were lost.

i have seen the letter that saurabh kalias father circulated - but that letter makes it clear that part from the initial reports and press - did the autopsy report confirm such kind of mutilation? i havent seen any

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Cummon now you are opening a Pandora's box.. the list is long on both sides and lets not go thru .. it .. but .. taking hostage of an unsuspecting ..patrol team of IA and killing them cold blooded and mutilating their genital parts so that they cant reach "jannat" is not the highest example of gallantry ..

That was a 'cheap shot' from the propganda POV. The Indian media itself called attention to this outright lie.

 

[Humanoid]

May be it is deviating from the topic ..but this is one article .. pondering on the “Lessons learnt From Kargil” as Projected by Pakistani Strategist Shireen Mazari:

It is a long one so here is the link
PAKISTAN’S LESSONS FROM ITS KARGIL WAR (1999): An Analysis

just a small excerpt...

Confusion and Dysfunction in Decision Making:

"And as the operation incrementally moved up on the escalation ladder, Pakistan’s decision-making system betrayed signs of confusion and dysfunction. In fact, the short-coming of Pakistan’s national security decision-making were revealed by the Kargil Conflict were not episodic but systemic.”

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

no but they did shoot down an unarmed civilian aircraft in 1965. the aircraft was piston engined beechcraft flying over indian territory - posed no threat and was in civlian colors. yet paf jets shot down the aircraft killing many civilians.

During the war or after?

I can accept collateral damage in the 'fog of war', but I'd like some neutral links on the event if it ocurred after hostilities ceased.

 

[Humanoid]

That was a 'cheap shot' from the propganda POV. The Indian media itself called attention to this outright lie.

I am trying to search for the valid link supporting my claim .. can you also provide the link that you have just mentioned..?

every piece of info if gets described as Propaganda.. then it will not lead us anywhere..

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

May be it is deviating from the topic ..but this is one article .. pondering on the “Lessons learnt From Kargil” as Projected by Pakistani Strategist Shireen Mazari:

It is a long one so here is the link
PAKISTAN’S LESSONS FROM ITS KARGIL WAR (1999): An Analysis

just a small excerpt...

Confusion and Dysfunction in Decision Making:

"And as the operation incrementally moved up on the escalation ladder, Pakistan’s decision-making system betrayed signs of confusion and dysfunction. In fact, the short-coming of Pakistan’s national security decision-making were revealed by the Kargil Conflict were not episodic but systemic.”

I personally have no quarrel with the analysis that decision making and long term strategic planning was flawed when it came to Kargil - both in the runup to it, its execution and the potential long term goals.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I am trying to search for the valid link supporting my claim .. can you also provide the link that you have just mentioned..?

every piece of info if gets described as Propaganda.. then it will not lead us anywhere..

Certainly - I remember gettin into teh same discussion with a gentleman when I first joined this forum, and posting the links at the time - I'll have to search them out again. They were all Indian links, one from the Indian Express unfortunately did not work when I tried linking to it in the course of a similar debate later on.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Ahh.. I found a PM I exchanged with Energon on the subject way back then:

Here are some of the resources:

I do not recall the thread that the discussion with Blain took place - like a lot of times, the Kargil torture issue was tangential to what the thread was about. The arguments against Torture, despite the "mutilated condition" of the bodies had a lot to do with the HMG's and the distance at which they were used on the intruding parties. Keyser pitched in with his knowledge of seeing HMG wounds. At relatively close distances you are looking at limbs almost being torn off, which explains the mutilation. There was also the issue of the mountainous terrain. Did the bodies just drop to the ground or did you have falls into ravines etc.

Here are a few links I could round up:

http://www.himalmag.com/99Sep/lies.htm

The Media in Terror

In the second link you'll have to scroll about half way down to find the relevant parts. One excerpt that the essay has:

All of this is shocking and deeply reprehensible. Nevertheless, it does not amount to mutilation…. But the mutilation story – which so inflamed passions in India – remained in print because we (emphasis added) felt that to contradict the army would be unpatriotic and demoralizing.

The funny thing is that the article that the excerpt above is taken from is no where to be found, even with a sentence search. I distinctly remember reading the entire thing and posting a link to it during that earlier discussion. It was also one of the first articles to pop up when I did a "Kargil torture lies" search. The link from the SATP site is also non functional.

A more thorough search on simply kargil might turn it up, but it requires too much time for the moment.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I for one dont believe this. if they did it, what is the need for them return the bodies? they could have said the bodies were lost.

i have seen the letter that saurabh kalias father circulated - but that letter makes it clear that part from the initial reports and press - did the autopsy report confirm such kind of mutilation? i havent seen any

Both militaries are too professional, and rooted in tradition and respect for the opponent to enage in this sort of condemnable behavior.

 

[chindit]

During the war or after?

I can accept collateral damage in the 'fog of war', but I'd like some neutral links on the event if it ocurred after hostilities ceased.

during the war. see its collateral damage for you.

its the same for us. the atlantique was collatarel damage

we only had a ceasefire - not a complete end to hostilities or 'treaty to stop war'. collatoral damage of the altantique was acceptable.

It was no an "all around peace and friendship" situation one month after kargil has ended.

things were still heated up, feelings were still high. casualities were still happening on the ground. i remember one indian patrol was ambushed and two solders take prisoner. much much after fighting has ended.

last thing PN had to do was send an atlantique close to the border.

i dont believe that indian fighters went in 10-20 miles deep into pakistani territory and deliberatly shot it down. if thats true i am sure PAF/PN would have had radio transmissions and other proof that the admiral claims even HAM radio operators had. but there was no proof then and none now.

when the US frigate shot down the iranian airliner in the early 90s, they displayed radar recordings, and also communication.

the same applies to india as well. it has not released any radio recordings either - why it has things to hide as well

what do we get from india and pakistan - nothing.

proves both have somethign to hide. no one is innocent on either side.

 

[chindit]

Both militaries are too professional, and rooted in tradition and respect for the opponent to enage in this sort of condemnable behavior.

.

agree.

 

[Humanoid]

Both militaries are too professional, and rooted in tradition and respect for the opponent to enage in this sort of condemnable behavior.

I sincerely believe and wish that you are true...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

during the war. see its collateral damage for you.

its the same for us. the atlantique was collatarel damage

we only had a ceasefire - not a complete end to hostilities or 'treaty to stop war'. collatoral damage of the altantique was acceptable.

It was no an "all around peace and friendship" situation one month after kargil has ended.

things were still heated up, feelings were still high. casualities were still happening on the ground. i remember one indian patrol was ambushed and two solders take prisoner. much much after fighting has ended.

last thing PN had to do was send an atlantique close to the border.

i dont believe that indian fighters went in 10-20 miles deep into pakistani territory and deliberatly shot it down. if thats true i am sure PAF/PN would have had radio transmissions and other proof that the admiral claims even HAM radio operators had. but there was no proof then and none now.

when the US frigate shot down the iranian airliner in the early 90s, they displayed radar recordings, and also communication.

the same applies to india as well. it has not released any radio recordings either - why it has things to hide as well

what do we get from india and pakistan - nothing.

proves both have somethign to hide. no one is innocent on either side.

Argued well Chindit, and it makes sense - and I'll leave it at that.