What Can Pakistan Learn from the Chinese Miracle

[redtom]

Pakistan will NEVER reach the skies as long as it does not address the deep cultural, socio-political and religious retardness which is endemic to Pakistani society. This was the very lethal mix that provided environment for vultures to come and rape the land. First it was the Sikhs and then after 1849 along came the British.

To be fair all societies have faced resurgent Europe as it spread across the globe driven by scientific culture and thought. The differance is some societies decided to learn the cause of why they got raped and then address that cause. The reason was quite obvious. It was the European scientific culture and thought often called "Western" today.

Turkey, Japan, China, South Korea etc decided to adopt "western" ideas and to rebuild their societies heavily informed by the West. Thus we saw Kemal Ataturk launch his reforms in 1920, the Chinese also began the reform process in 1920s and Mao consolidated them.

It must be noted here Chinese in Taiwan also followed the western model. Only they chose the capitalist iteration as opposed to Marxist iteration. But both evolutions are sourced in Europe.

The Japanese were the FIRST non Europeans to literally copy the west with the process begining in 1880s Meiji reformation. Out went the traditional Japanese dress and in came bowler hats and tuxedos of the time that were popular in the West. Not surprisingly the first non European people to go onto become a indistailiazed country were Japanese and defeated European Russian Empire in the Russo-Jap war in 1905 by sending good portion of the Tsars Navy to the bottom of the sea.

It was after this that Japanese were accorded the title of "honorary Europeans" and would take part in all global conferances to decide the fate of countries.

Interestingly the most advanced Muslim country today is Turkey which is in form literally a clone of western civilization. Even Erdogan swore himself as president with words that could have been crafted in Berlin, Paris or Wahshington.

Then there are societies who do the opposite. They insist on employing the very mix caused the defeat in the first place. Indeed they want even more of it. This is Pakistan for you. No surprises then that leads to the Pakistan you have today. A unstable, corrupt, poverty ridden country of 220 million people that almost produces nothing to export and is terminally dependent on western banks to survive and nowdays Chinese loans.

Only fools insist on repeating the same failed retardness. And utterly refuse to see the wining formula when it's there right in front of you. This thread demonstrates what I am saying.

You may then wonder about me? The problem is first I am primarily a product of the west and on top of that a anomaly. Anaomalies don't get to set the direction of countries. Mainsteam does and people like @Hiptullha are that.

Thus the state of Pakistan will continue as it is.

@beijingwalker @Dungeness @Char @redtom @PAKISTANFOREVER @Yankee-stani @313ghazi
They call that diplomatic answer. Holding a PDF title imposes the weight of comformity.

There are many factions in China in the process of learning from the West. In the end they all lost to the Communist Party between 1840-1949.

CCP has won the most brutal war. It is based on the effective organization and motivation of the Chinese.

The most important thing CCP learned from the West is the scientific method of analyzing society. Mao Zedong used these methods to find the right path for China.The sinicization of communism not only did not destroy China's traditional culture, but combined with Chinese culture to form a new Chinese culture, and it is this kind of culture that laid the foundation for China's development.

For example, why do Chinese people appear to be industrious?Because in communist theory, wealth comes from human labor. In the consciousness of the Chinese people, labor is for a better life. And when your labor cannot bring wealth, then Chinese people will habitually feel exploited, and then demand more violent social revolution.This will prompt the government to adjust the distribution of wealth to improve the lives of the people at the bottom.It is the poverty alleviation movement in China now.

And this kind of thinking penetrated into the Chinese people's thinking through the Cultural Revolution.This is why many people in China are rethinking the meaning of the Cultural Revolution. The Cultural Revolution destroyed the aristocratic sense of all classes in China. Anyone and any group can be questioned, denied, and attacked. China no longer has the possibility of aristocracy.

So the Chinese are now very disgusted with anyone who tries to preach to China from a high position. We only accept equal dialogue.This also explains the change in China's foreign policy. This is not Xi's personal characteristic, but China's consistent style. It's just that China didn't have strong strength before, and the world didn't pay much attention to it.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

But how do we overcome these obstacles?

I have no idea honestly. The issues are in front of us. Even the solutions are there in front of you in UK, Turkey, China, Japan, South Korea etc.

Our problems are desi retardness which is mashup of our pathetic traditions mixed with religion. Despite these having failed us, we as people refuse to give reform them. Our solution is more of the retarded mix. Unsurprisingly this gets us no where. Repeating the same mistake will only produce the same result.

It's interest you mention UK. Think about it. Why do we Pakistan continue living here? Why are more of us wanting to come here? Is it the weather? Of course not. It is the quality of life it provides.

But what sustains that quality of life? Is it the soil? Is it the hills? Is it the rock? Is it the colour of the people? Of course not. What sustains it is the political, legal system and the culture that informs it. So that in fact is why Pakistani's come here.

But then if you suggest planting of this in Pakistan you will hear cries. They all love talking about China but utterly refuse to look or copy the formula they used for success. Instead they will begin teaching them.

Sometimes I fear we have a IQ issue. I am not saying we don't have bright people. We do. But the average of the masses is low. So they can't see the light. They keep folowing the wrong people. Meaning even if we have a Mao, a Ataturk, a Mahatir, a Erdogan born he will never get the support of the masses because they are easily duped by others.

I hope not but that does worry me sometimes.

YOU IMPLEMENT QURAN AS YOUR CONSTITUTION ALL WILL BE GOOD DONOT LOOK AT KUFAR LOOK AT 1ST GENERATION OF MUSLIMS 'THAT IS WHAT OUR PROPHET SAID.YOU MUSLIMWILLBE SLAVE TO ALL UNTILL YOU GO BACK TO YOUR DEEN START FOLLOWING YOUR 1ST GENERATION'SAHABA"

See what I mean? IQ challanged.

@PAKISTANFOREVER

 

[Dr-who]

So in conclusion, we need to revisit our culture in scientific basis and start solving our problems from there.
But then again, our emotions will get hold of us.
At the most extreme, will we accepts a Christian/Hindu/qadiani PM/Governed/CM?
Highly unlikely we will change.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

I have no idea honestly. The issues are in front of us. Even the solutions are there in front of you in UK, Turkey, China, Japan, South Korea etc.

Our problems are desi retardness which is mashup of our pathetic traditions mixed with religion. Despite these having failed us, we as people refuse to give reform them. Our solution is more of the retarded mix. Unsurprisingly this gets us no where. Repeating the same mistake will only produce the same result.

It's interest you mention UK. Think about it. Why do we Pakistan continue living here? Why are more of us wanting to come here? Is it the weather? Of course not. It is the quality of life it provides.

But what sustains that quality of life? Is it the soil? Is it the hills? Is it the rock? Is it the colour of the people? Of course not. What sustains it is the political, legal system and the culture that informs it. So that in fact is why Pakistani's come here.

But then if you suggest planting of this in Pakistan you will hear cries. They all love talking about China but utterly refuse to look or copy the formula they used for success. Instead they will begin teaching them.

Sometimes I fear we have a IQ issue. I am not saying we don't have bright people. We do. But the average of the masses is low. So they can't see the light. They keep folowing the wrong people. Meaning even if we have a Mao, a Ataturk, a Mahatir, a Erdogan born he will never get the support of the masses because they are easily duped by others.

I hope not but that does worry me sometimes.
See what I mean? IQ challanged.

@PAKISTANFOREVER

Agreed but I think it is much deeper than that. Our malaise stems from the fact that Pakistani people by and large HATE striving for success and excellence. Generally speaking our people love mediocrity and cutting corners. They lack patience and hate anything that is too academic. That is why you have a lot of our people happy to being minicab drivers and opening fast food takeaways. That is the epitome of their aspiration. A family friend of mine's has a son who got 4 grade A's at A-level back in 2017. He dropped out of Imperial College doing medicine because he couldn't be bothered to do the hard work. He is now 22 and happy to being an Uber driver. This story is unfortunately fairly common. Even if we tried to emulate the Chinese or Western model for success we would still fail due to our aversion to academia and hard work where you need a high IQ.

YOU IMPLEMENT QURAN AS YOUR CONSTITUTION ALL WILL BE GOOD DONOT LOOK AT KUFAR LOOK AT 1ST GENERATION OF MUSLIMS 'THAT IS WHAT OUR PROPHET SAID.YOU MUSLIMWILLBE SLAVE TO ALL UNTILL YOU GO BACK TO YOUR DEEN START FOLLOWING YOUR 1ST GENERATION'SAHABA"

You do know that is was the British who ruled the area that is now Pakistan who inserted the above belief in to the minds of the corrupt Mullahs of the time. They in turn propagated the above to our ancestors.

Just be religious and implement religious laws and everything will be okay. Do not follow the models for success and prosperity. Leave that to the White Europeans and let all the brown/olive skinned Muslim peoples be religious zealots who will NEVER get anywhere. Suits the Kuffar fine................

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Agreed but I think it is much deeper than that. Our malaise stems from the fact that Pakistani people by and large HATE striving for success and excellence. Generally speaking our people love mediocrity and cutting corners. They lack patience and hate anything that is too academic. That is why you have a lot of our people happy to being minicab drivers and opening fast food takeaways. That is the epitome of their aspiration. A family friend of mine's has a son who got 4 grade A's at A-level back in 2017. He dropped out of Imperial College doing medicine because he couldn't be bothered to do the hard work. He is now 22 and happy to being an Uber driver. This story is unfortunately fairly common. Even if we tried to emulate the Chinese or Western model for success we would still fail due to our aversion to academia and hard work where you need a high IQ.





You do know that is was the British who ruled the area that is now Pakistan who inserted the above belief in to the minds of the corrupt Mullahs of the time. They in turn propagated the above to our ancestors.

Just be religious and implement religious laws and everything will be okay. Do not follow the models for success and prosperity. Leave that to the White Europeans and let all the brown/olive skinned Muslim peoples be religious zealots who will NEVER get anywhere. Suits the Kuffar fine................

PS I think the first step to solving our problems is to try to increase the average IQ of our people and make academic, scientific and technological progress an appealing propspect for our people. They need to believe in high aspirations.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

love mediocrity and cutting corners

Fantastic point you made. I was watching a programme the other day on CPEC and the Pakistani expert who had spent time in China was lamenting that Pakistan needs to leverage CPEC. What he mean't was Chinese companies are looking to set up offshore operations as Chinese labour rates rise. He guesstimated that $100 billion of investment could be had over the next few years from China but he felt much of that would be sunk into Vietnam, Indonesia etc.

The reason? He said the poor quality of Pakistani workforce. From the cleaner to the technician to the project engineer there was no culture of hard work and relentless eye to quality.

If you go to Germany you notice this quality. From the cleaner to project manager each will do his work to the best possible standard. When everybody does this you get Germany, Japan and China.

I have been following the construction of the M-14 motorway in Pakistan. Most of it is being built by Pakistamni companies. What strikes me the terrible build quality. It is visibly sub par compared to the M-15 and M-5 built by Chinese.

You can even see in houses built in Pakistan. They are almost always built to shoddy standards even when it's a mansion. The concrete will not have right mix or the leveling will not be laser straight etc. The result is in 10 years they look like 100 years old. I am sure you have observed this yourself.

 

[313ghazi]

I have no idea honestly. The issues are in front of us. Even the solutions are there in front of you in UK, Turkey, China, Japan, South Korea etc.

Our problems are desi retardness which is mashup of our pathetic traditions mixed with religion. Despite these having failed us, we as people refuse to give reform them. Our solution is more of the retarded mix. Unsurprisingly this gets us no where. Repeating the same mistake will only produce the same result.

It's interest you mention UK. Think about it. Why do we Pakistan continue living here? Why are more of us wanting to come here? Is it the weather? Of course not. It is the quality of life it provides.

But what sustains that quality of life? Is it the soil? Is it the hills? Is it the rock? Is it the colour of the people? Of course not. What sustains it is the political, legal system and the culture that informs it. So that in fact is why Pakistani's come here.

But then if you suggest planting of this in Pakistan you will hear cries. They all love talking about China but utterly refuse to look or copy the formula they used for success. Instead they will begin teaching them.

Sometimes I fear we have a IQ issue. I am not saying we don't have bright people. We do. But the average of the masses is low. So they can't see the light. They keep folowing the wrong people. Meaning even if we have a Mao, a Ataturk, a Mahatir, a Erdogan born he will never get the support of the masses because they are easily duped by others.

I hope not but that does worry me sometimes.
See what I mean? IQ challanged.

@PAKISTANFOREVER

To be fair I think it's the economic opportunity that attracts people. Our people travel to the Middle East kingdoms for economic opportunities too.

I think the legal system and the social structure in the UK is great, but I don't think we can implement it directly. We tried - look how that turned out.

UK society has evolved through a process to be where it is - we've not learnt the hard lessons they did and we don't seem to be the sort that learn from other people's mistakes.

I'll be damned if I know the answer though. Whatever our formula to success is, we need a lot of trial and error to get there.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Fantastic point you made. I was watching a programme the other day on CPEC and the Pakistani expert who had spent time in China was lamenting that Pakistan needs to leverage CPEC. What he mean't was Chinese companies are looking to set up offshore operations as Chinese labour rates rise. He guesstimated that $100 billion of investment could be had over the next few years from China but he felt much of that would be sunk into Vietnam, Indonesia etc.

The reason? He said the poor quality of Pakistani workforce. From the cleaner to the technician to the project engineer there was no culture of hard work and relentless eye to quality.

If you go to Germany you notice this quality. From the cleaner to project manager each will do his work to the best possible standard. When everybody does this you get Germany, Japan and China.

I have been following the construction of the M-14 motorway in Pakistan. Most of it is being built by Pakistamni companies. What strikes me the terrible build quality. It is visibly sub par compared to the M-15 and M-5 built by Chinese.

You can even see in houses built in Pakistan. They are almost always built to shoddy standards even when it's a mansion. The concrete will not have right mix or the leveling will not be laser straight etc. The result is in 10 years they look like 100 years old. I am sure you have observed this yourself.

Add to the fact that Pakistani people WHEREVER they are will ALWAYS complain for doing the same amount of work as non-Pakistanis do. They will always feel hard done by. No matter what. Another race who has this attitude are the blacks.


Pakistanis ABSOLUTELY hate high quality work. This is where nearly ALL our problems stem from. Our workforce are the same standard if not lower than that of African standards.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Pakistanis ABSOLUTELY hate high quality work. This is where nearly ALL our problems stem from. Our workforce are the same standard if not lower than that of African standards.

Ever bought a shalwar kameez in Pakistan? Does the stitching quality, cut or matarial match to what we buy in UK for instance from a regular retailer like Next.

And have you seen the quality of houses in Pakistan. Cheap terrace house in UK is built to higher standard then a million pound mansion in Pakistan. This can't always have been the case. If you look at the old masjids in Lahore or forts built in Pakistan they are of incredible quality.

Sindh has some fabulous quality built mosques and the designs are superfluous compared to your average newly built mosque in Pakistan. Which reminds have you ever seen Shah Faisel Mosque in Islamabad close up? The build quality is horrendous.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Ever bought a shalwar kameez in Pakistan? Does the stitching quality, cut or matarial match to what we buy in UK for instance from a regular retailer like Next.

And have you seen the quality of houses in Pakistan. Cheap terrace house in UK is built to higher standard then a million pound mansion in Pakistan. This can't always have been the case. If you look at the old masjids in Lahore or forts built in Pakistan they are of incredible quality.

Sindh has some fabulous quality built mosques and the designs are superfluous compared to your average newly built mosque in Pakistan. Which reminds have you ever seen Shah Faisel Mosque in Islamabad close up? The build quality is horrendous.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!..........Agreed. Most Pakistanis don't want to acknowledge this fact. This is the CAUSE of our woes. Why do you think we love mullahism so much? Don't be proactive, don't be successful, resourceful and intelligent. Just pray and leave everything in the hands of the Almighty. Everything will be okay. Pakistani Mullahs ALWAYS say this even though it is NOWHERE in the Quraan. Mullahism is a manifestation of us shying away from our responsibility and aspirations.

 

[313ghazi]

Ever bought a shalwar kameez in Pakistan? Does the stitching quality, cut or matarial match to what we buy in UK for instance from a regular retailer like Next.

And have you seen the quality of houses in Pakistan. Cheap terrace house in UK is built to higher standard then a million pound mansion in Pakistan. This can't always have been the case. If you look at the old masjids in Lahore or forts built in Pakistan they are of incredible quality.

Sindh has some fabulous quality built mosques and the designs are superfluous compared to your average newly built mosque in Pakistan. Which reminds have you ever seen Shah Faisel Mosque in Islamabad close up? The build quality is horrendous.

Very few quality craftsmen in PK. Those who are tend to be artisans. People have got lazy, used to low quality work. My aunt makes dresses and has done for over 40 years. You can show her a dress and she'll sow you an exact copy of it. All self taught. She's very passionate about her work.

She hates the quality of the work by many Pakistani tailors. At my wedding we had a darzi come and sow the clothes for my cousins. It was wierd, we bought clothes for everyone - ridiculous. Rinsed me.

Anyway she saw his work and launched into a tirade against him. He left straight away - didn't even take his machine.

Next don't do anything amazing with the stitching. They trim the excess and overlock the seams. It's done by people in Pakistan and Bangladesh! But Next demand these basic steps, each piece is the same as the one before it.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Bangladesh

I am aware of that but the quality is better than anything I bought in Pakistan. Next are not exactly Saville Row but they trump anything you can buy in Pakistan.

 

[mike2000 is back]

Not with the cultural revolution.

Yes cultural revolution was the one biggest blunder in Mao's entire rule. It destroyed so many things for little to no gain. However, to be honest, it was more of a political move by Mao to gain power/influence and firm grip over the party more than anything else. So it's not like he had any real convictions/beliefs about the cultural revolution, it was just a means to an end. However it had disastrous impact for the country as a whole, which took decades for the country to even start recovering from. I think this is one thing even current Chinese leaders/CCP agree on even today that it was Mao's biggest blunder.
He did carry out much reforms the country needed back during the start of the new CCP rule though. However, i think his blunder was trying to remain in power for too long by all means necessary. He could have give up the reigns of power after a period of time to more capable leaders/rulers and still remain as a father figure/mentor, instead of clinging to power by all means until death. However, at least he did one good thing before his death during that period of time, by meeting Nixon and ushering the US/China détente before his death which helped eased things for Deng Xiaoping in relation to opposition in the party to China opening up thereafter. Else it will have been harder for Deng to push over his reforms and opening up since the party was full of die hard Maoists who wanted nothing to do with anything western or foreign trade or whatever, and saw Deng's ideas as even treason much like your religious conservatives in Pakistan see any sort of traditional reforms as some form o treason/travesty and some form of infringement upon the country's traditions/culture/ structure.
So we can actually say that China was actually lucky that they had a Deng Xiaoping at the right time, because if any of the die hard Maoist in the party were the ones who took power(it was a real possibility then) then the country would have gone an entirely different direction, would have end up today more like a bigger version of North Korea.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Please read @beijingwalker post.


the west always demonizes Mao and all his heavy handed policies, but everyone else except for the Chinese people fails to understand how vital Mao's reform was in transforming the whole structure of the Chinese society. A short term pain for long term development.

Why India can never have long term meaningful development and growth? cause India hasn't had a Mao appeared in its history to fundementily change the course and the fate of a massive nation.

Your Bejingwalker denies entire Great Leap famine death of 40 million people occurring btw

Cultural revolution was Mao's last bit effort to ensure his legacy does not end like Stalin after his failures during Great Leap

Like uncivilized barbarians Chinese Mao loyalist zombies destroyed centuries old priceless Chinese civilizational artifacts. Ironically today they whine about their stolen cultural artifacts being present in British museums

During the purge, PLA was reduced to a paper tiger with several officers accused of traitors by Mao eliminated. This led to PLA soldiers dying like flies in the Sino-Vietnam war

In the end Mao got what he wanted at the cost of his people as always

China were culturally superstitions people before the revolution and are the same in the present except Chinese superstitious believes of consuming exotic wild animals has the cost the world big time

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Great Leap famine death of 40 million people occurring btw

We can't know the number but for sure many died. But so did in the making of Russia, USA etc