What Can Pakistan Learn from the Chinese Miracle

[OIO]

I agree with you. Most of the Paks here will blame it on last 40 years of corruption of the elected governments. The truth is while they have no helped but the countries problems are far bigger than Bhutto or Sharifs.

You see both countries might have been set up about the same time and China did look poorer. But it was all cosmetic. The Pakistan we had in 1940s, 50s or 1960s looked ahead of China. However that was not because of indigenous source. It was all British colonial legacy and American aid kept the country shining compared to China.

But a critical analysis will tell you China overtook Pakistan between 1950 and 1970. In this period China over hauled it's society at the root. It planted seeds of a new culture and society. So China may have looked poorer but in fact she was investing in her people for a better future. For instance by 1970 Chinese literacy was way beyond Pakistan. In short Chinese invested in their society and were ahead of Pakistan by 1970. This was laying the seeds of future success.

To put it in brutal terms Chinese ever since 1920's well before even CCP took over and birth of modern China had The New Culture Movement which was somply "copy the west".

In our part of the world it was other way round by saying "let's go to the past". The Chinese society inspired by the west to look forward. Our society repulsed by the west decided to look backwards. This is the reall povery that Pakistan suffers from.

The New Culture Movement (Xin wenhua yundong) was a movement in China in the 1910s and 1920s that criticized classical Chinese ideas and promoted a new Chinese culture based upon western ideals like democracy and science.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=New+Culture+Movement

You have a deep understanding of modern Chinese history. Some people find it difficult to understand China's development only from the past 40 years of history.

Chinese people generally do not compare the development history of China and Pakistan, because there are some views that will be regarded as criticism of Pakistan or the export of ideological and political systems.

Personally, the development history of Pakistan cannot be separated from the war after the founding of the country, the situation of the Muslim world and the Cold War.

 

[GumNaam]

Global Village Space |

When Mao took power in China in 1949, two years after Pakistan’s birth, China was a far
poorer country than Pakistan, with a lower per capita income. Today, China’s growth is an
economic miracle, whereas Pakistan’s economy is burdened by unemployment, inflation, and debt. The country is dependent upon China’s massive support.

After the Korean War, the US considered China an enemy; Pakistan, needing US support against the USSR-India axis, at first did not risk having too close a relationship with China. This changed in 1962 when China defeated India in a short and decisive war, and Pakistan, on the principle that ‘my enemy’s enemy is my friend,’ started to build a special relationship with China.

Zulfikar Ali Bhutto emerged as the leader of the China camp in Pakistan. China became an important supplier of arms to Pakistan, and Pakistan was one of the first countries to support China’s move to replace Taiwan in the UN.


The two critical events that cemented the Pak-China relationship were in 1971 when Pakistan facilitated Kissinger’s secret trip to China that led to the Mao – Nixon meeting in 1972, and 2015 when Xi Jinping visited Pakistan to launch the CPEC, a game-changer for Pakistan.

The Mao-Nixon meeting ended 20 years’ enmity after the Korean War, in which the People’s Republic of China, a year after its birth, had challenged the US, the world’s superpower and victor of the Second World War. Mao had lost his son on the battlefront in Korea.

Read full article...
What Can Pakistan Learn from the Chinese Miracle

Pakistan should learn one lesson if nothing else...HANG ALL CORRUPT, NO QUESTIONS ASKED!

 

[Enigma SIG]

First step would be to put all the weli qom to work. Go to Karachi and see this wela pan at full display with the tharay outside homes which are occupied by young and old alike all day long and night matches for a full night and sleeping till 3 PM.
You're expecting miracles.

 

[Hassan90]

Pakistan needs to learn from China the rule of law and strict political stability ..all of other things will come with time . Our establishment have always sacrifized our stability to make foreign nations happy against the will of the ppl because of which there is always crisis in the nation . You cant progress when you are at war with your own ppl . As a nation for pakistan to progress our rulers need to put their personal relation with other countries on the backburner and follow the popular opinions just for the sake of stability .. no bod invests in a poor nation where ppl are often on streets and government is changing every 4 a 5 years .

 

[Hiptullha]

Guarantee? What academic background and professional qualification you have to make you think you are in position making such a statement?

Why do you need an academic background or professional qualification for this? Are Chinese people today interested in revolution or not?

 

[siegecrossbow]

If I may be blunt, what worked for the US, China, Japan, etc may not work for other countries. You have to find your own path. The only way to do that is via trial and error. Implement policies on a divisional level, see what worked and what failed, and apply the successful ones to the rest of the country and see if it sticks.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Pakistan will NEVER reach the skies as long as it does not address the deep cultural, socio-political and religious retardness which is endemic to Pakistani society. This was the very lethal mix that provided environment for vultures to come and rape the land. First it was the Sikhs and then after 1849 along came the British.

To be fair all societies have faced resurgent Europe as it spread across the globe driven by scientific culture and thought. The differance is some societies decided to learn the cause of why they got raped and then address that cause. The reason was quite obvious. It was the European scientific culture and thought often called "Western" today.

Turkey, Japan, China, South Korea etc decided to adopt "western" ideas and to rebuild their societies heavily informed by the West. Thus we saw Kemal Ataturk launch his reforms in 1920, the Chinese also began the reform process in 1920s and Mao consolidated them.

It must be noted here Chinese in Taiwan also followed the western model. Only they chose the capitalist iteration as opposed to Marxist iteration. But both evolutions are sourced in Europe.

The Japanese were the FIRST non Europeans to literally copy the west with the process begining in 1880s Meiji reformation. Out went the traditional Japanese dress and in came bowler hats and tuxedos of the time that were popular in the West. Not surprisingly the first non European people to go onto become a indistailiazed country were Japanese and defeated European Russian Empire in the Russo-Jap war in 1905 by sending good portion of the Tsars Navy to the bottom of the sea.

It was after this that Japanese were accorded the title of "honorary Europeans" and would take part in all global conferances to decide the fate of countries.

Interestingly the most advanced Muslim country today is Turkey which is in form literally a clone of western civilization. Even Erdogan swore himself as president with words that could have been crafted in Berlin, Paris or Wahshington.

Then there are societies who do the opposite. They insist on employing the very mix caused the defeat in the first place. Indeed they want even more of it. This is Pakistan for you. No surprises then that leads to the Pakistan you have today. A unstable, corrupt, poverty ridden country of 220 million people that almost produces nothing to export and is terminally dependent on western banks to survive and nowdays Chinese loans.

Only fools insist on repeating the same failed retardness. And utterly refuse to see the wining formula when it's there right in front of you. This thread demonstrates what I am saying.

You may then wonder about me? The problem is first I am primarily a product of the west and on top of that a anomaly. Anaomalies don't get to set the direction of countries. Mainsteam does and people like @Hiptullha are that.

Thus the state of Pakistan will continue as it is.

@beijingwalker @Dungeness @Char @redtom @PAKISTANFOREVER @Yankee-stani @313ghazi

If I may be blunt, what worked for the US, China, Japan, etc may not work for other countries. You have to find your own path. The only way to do that is via trial and error. Implement policies on a divisional level, see what worked and what failed, and apply the successful ones to the rest of the country and see if it sticks.

They call that diplomatic answer. Holding a PDF title imposes the weight of comformity.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Pakistan will NEVER reach the skies as long as it does not address the deep cultural, socio-political and religious retardness which is endemic to Pakistani society. This was the very lethal mix that provided environment for vultures to come and rape the land. First it was the Sikhs and then after 1849 along came the British.

To be fair all societies have faced resurgent Europe as it spread across the globe driven by scientific culture and thought. The differance is some societies decided to learn the cause of why they got raped and then address that cause. The reason was quite obvious. It was the European scientific culture and thought often called "Western" today.

Turkey, Japan, China, South Korea etc decided to adopt "western" ideas and to rebuild their societies heavily informed by the West. Thus we saw Kemal Ataturk launch his reforms in 1920, the Chinese also began the reform process in 1920s and Mao consolidated them.

It must be noted here Chinese in Taiwan also followed the western model. Only they chose the capitalist iteration as opposed to Marxist iteration. But both evolutions are sourced in Europe.

The Japanese were the FIRST non Europeans to literally copy the west with the process begining in 1880s Meiji reformation. Out went the traditional Japanese dress and in came bowler hats and tuxedos of the time that were popular in the West. Not surprisingly the first non European people to go onto become a indistailiazed country were Japanese and defeated European Russian Empire in the Russo-Jap war in 1905 by sending good portion of the Tsars Navy to the bottom of the sea.

It was after this that Japanese were accorded the title of "honorary Europeans" and would take part in all global conferances to decide the fate of countries.

Interestingly the most advanced Muslim country today is Turkey which is in form literally a clone of western civilization. Even Erdogan swore himself as president with words that could have been crafted in Berlin, Paris or Wahshington.

Then there are societies who do the opposite. They insist on employing the very mix caused the defeat in the first place. Indeed they want even more of it. This is Pakistan for you. No surprises then that leads to the Pakistan you have today. A unstable, corrupt, poverty ridden country of 220 million people that almost produces nothing to export and is terminally dependent on western banks to survive and nowdays Chinese loans.

Only fools insist on repeating the same failed retardness. And utterly refuse to see the wining formula when it's there right in front of you. This thread demonstrates what I am saying.

You may then wonder about me? The problem is first I am primarily a product of the west and on top of that a anomaly. Anaomalies don't get to set the direction of countries. Mainsteam does and people like @Hiptullha are that.

Thus the state of Pakistan will continue as it is.

@beijingwalker @Dungeness @Char @redtom @PAKISTANFOREVER @Yankee-stani @313ghazi
They call that diplomatic answer. Holding a PDF title imposes the weight of comformity.

Agreed with everything you have said above. But how do we overcome these obstacles? Unfortunately A LOT of our people think that by inviting a corrupt moulvi saab and having a mahfil will solve all our problems. We SERIOUSLY need to get past this.


PS Why is that so many Pakistani families even those in the UK have a high propensity to invite moulvis into their homes, stuff them with heaps of biryani and coke/7-up? Notice how the moulvis pass wind as they sit cross-legged on the floor and stuff themselves.

 

[Hiptullha]

I told this guy I don't want lynch mobs and purges and he's decided I'm personally holding Pakistan back from development

 

[EasyNow]

Don't pay too much attention to corruption, which is not conducive to solving the problem. Mao said that politics is about making friends more and enemies less.

The root of corruption comes from system loopholes rather than from someone. If the goal is to eliminate corrupt people from the beginning, they will do everything in their power to stop you.

Benefits can be exchanged. Just like a robber who robbed a passing businessman, he can also be turned into a manager of a transportation company.

This is a brilliant post and I'm afraid marks the difference in philosophy between China and South Asia.

People in underdeveloped countries have the need to personify their problems and have a boogeyman to blame. The only solution we have to every problem is more punishment and more 'moral education'. Rather than taking the difficult choice and adopting stronger systems all round.

Pakistan will NEVER reach the skies as long as it does not address the deep cultural, socio-political and religious retardness which is endemic to Pakistani society. This was the very lethal mix that provided environment for vultures to come and rape the land. First it was the Sikhs and then after 1849 along came the British.

To be fair all societies have faced resurgent Europe as it spread across the globe driven by scientific culture and thought. The differance is some societies decided to learn the cause of why they got raped and then address that cause. The reason was quite obvious. It was the European scientific culture and thought often called "Western" today.

Turkey, Japan, China, South Korea etc decided to adopt "western" ideas and to rebuild their societies heavily informed by the West. Thus we saw Kemal Ataturk launch his reforms in 1920, the Chinese also began the reform process in 1920s and Mao consolidated them.

It must be noted here Chinese in Taiwan also followed the western model. Only they chose the capitalist iteration as opposed to Marxist iteration. But both evolutions are sourced in Europe.

The Japanese were the FIRST non Europeans to literally copy the west with the process begining in 1880s Meiji reformation. Out went the traditional Japanese dress and in came bowler hats and tuxedos of the time that were popular in the West. Not surprisingly the first non European people to go onto become a indistailiazed country were Japanese and defeated European Russian Empire in the Russo-Jap war in 1905 by sending good portion of the Tsars Navy to the bottom of the sea.

It was after this that Japanese were accorded the title of "honorary Europeans" and would take part in all global conferances to decide the fate of countries.

Interestingly the most advanced Muslim country today is Turkey which is in form literally a clone of western civilization. Even Erdogan swore himself as president with words that could have been crafted in Berlin, Paris or Wahshington.

Then there are societies who do the opposite. They insist on employing the very mix caused the defeat in the first place. Indeed they want even more of it. This is Pakistan for you. No surprises then that leads to the Pakistan you have today. A unstable, corrupt, poverty ridden country of 220 million people that almost produces nothing to export and is terminally dependent on western banks to survive and nowdays Chinese loans.

Only fools insist on repeating the same failed retardness. And utterly refuse to see the wining formula when it's there right in front of you. This thread demonstrates what I am saying.

You may then wonder about me? The problem is first I am primarily a product of the west and on top of that a anomaly. Anaomalies don't get to set the direction of countries. Mainsteam does and people like @Hiptullha are that.

Thus the state of Pakistan will continue as it is.

@beijingwalker @Dungeness @Char @redtom @PAKISTANFOREVER @Yankee-stani @313ghazi
They call that diplomatic answer. Holding a PDF title imposes the weight of comformity.

In Asia, only Pakistan has the attributes to be the next Turkey.

But Im afraid this will not happen until Pakistan goes through complete talibanisation first. Only after an overdose of religion and culture, do revolutions like Turkey's arise.

Iran, Syria and Afghanistan are examples of countries that are finally seeing the 'religion dictators' for the wolves they are - but whether they can take power remains to be seen.

 

[charene514]

NO one wants to emulate chinese. NO ONE !! PERIOD !

 

[Paul2]

Last year, a Chinese video blogger made a video about Pakistan.

His view is that Pakistan’s political structure is problematic and lacks a strong central government.

Political families in various places take turns in power, and they fight for the interests of their hometown, that is, fight for the interests of their own families. Others hinder their policies.He is even more looking forward to Pakistan's military exerting greater political power. When the military government completed the integration of Pakistan, destroyed the political power of the local separatism, and then returned power to the government and the people.

This process is a bit like China's early route. China has destroyed the original local power in China through economic system reforms. Let the whole China become a whole. Then obtained the basic industrial system from the Soviet Union.

Pakistan has the same opportunity, and China can provide better industrialization. But the problem is that the military is far from the strength of the CCP, and it is unable to implement reforms.

I think a certain degree of economic reform is possible. Set up some state-owned enterprises and distribute them to various political families. Let the interests of the political family align with the interests of Pakistan.Just like some people control oil, some people control electricity, some people control communications, and some people control import and export trade.

Destroy zamindarship.

For as long as land hoarding is the preferred way to park capital for Pakistan's rich, and powerful:

1. Those will keep depressing any other productive use of capital to preserve their land value
2. Those will keep getting more rich, and powerful to perpetuate the above like the Bahria town guy.
3. Mess like landgrabs, and land scams will continue to dog you as the underlying incentive for them will be still there.
4. With all of above going on, who will in their sane mind put money into factories?

I can prove your point. Mao is the greatest man in China since AD.

Simply put, Mao’s achievements made 99% of Chinese people truly become human beings, rather than the remaining 1% of property. And he will therefore be opposed forever by the remaining 1%.

Mao promised land for peasants, it's 100 year since, and no land for commie groupies in sight

 

[xuxu1457]

1. From the national and cultural point of view, the common influence of Confucian culture in East Asian countries：
Attach importance to education
Work Hard
Collectivism
Highly identified with the State
Extremely secular

2. Economically export-oriented，Dedicated to improving production efficiency and Improvement of added value of products

3. Political stability and POLICY continuity，believe in law and social morality，Extremely low crime rate

So East Asia is called the Monster House，eg South Korea, economy Military the top ten in the world，But look around ，Korea , the one who was bullied, If South Korea were anywhere else -- South America, Africa, the Middle East, whatever -- it would be a regional hegemon.

Different backgrounds, different routes. Normally, I've been bullish on Iran. The potential of Iran is very great，Personally, I stilPersonally, I still think that industrialization is the primary goal of developing countries rather than anything else.
Pakistan still needs to find a way that suits its own.The experience of other countries can be used for reference.But if fully copy other country's model, it will basically not suit with Pakistan.

 

[khansaheeb]

Chinese mean business:-

Chinese shoot corrupt politicians

The "degeneration" of the politician happened because he "fell victim to the temptations of women and money, and took advantage…

www.irishtimes.com

Chinese shoot corrupt politicians

Wed, May 31, 2000, 01:00














The "degeneration" of the politician happened because he "fell victim to the temptations of women and money, and took advantage of the power endowed by the party and the people to make personal gains". Sound familiar?

This was not a judge at one of the Dublin Castle tribunals but a disciplinary commission of the Chinese Communist Party, commenting recently on Mr Cheng Kejie, a deputy chairman of the Chinese parliament. Unlike his soul mates in Ireland, Mr Cheng cannot hope to brazen it out; he can only expect a bullet in the head. In China they shoot corrupt politicians.

Last month the former deputy mayor of the southern city of Guigang, Li Chenglong, was executed after accepting cash donations (in red envelopes) for handing out jobs and construction contracts. Two months ago a former deputy governor of Jiangxi province, Hu Changqing, was shot by the state for taking bribes, becoming the most senior official to be put to death in 50 years.

Chen Xitong, the corrupt mayor of Beijing, barely escaped with his life. He was jailed in 1998 for 16 years; his deputy, Wang Baosen, committed suicide. In China they also shoot officials and businessmen caught up in sleaze, or put them away for long prison terms.

On Saturday Shen Weibiao, the 32-year-old manager of a Bank of China branch in the city of Shaoguan, was executed for the white-collar crime of diverting funds for his own use.

Yesterday Mou Qizhong, once known as China's richest man, was sentenced to life by a court in Wuhan for foreign exchange fraud. Instead of a lengthy tribunal to mull over his complex billion-dollar transactions, he got precisely one day in court.

The forms of corruption are depressingly familiar.

Mr Cheng allegedly first accepted an envelope of cash in 1992 for lowering the price of redevelopment land, and then took kickbacks for issuing building licences at low prices.












He also had a mistress, a married woman named Li Ping. He was secretly videotaped with her at a Macau casino, which may have been his real undoing. The possibility of being shot has powerfully concentrated his conscience. Mr Cheng has since offered to return all his illegal income to the nation.


A novel idea!


The official People's Daily said the arrest of Cheng showed "there is no hiding place for corrupt elements in the party" and they would be shown no mercy in an all-out attempt to clean house.


The party's image is crucial to its survival. If it gains a reputation as nothing more than a club for corrupt officials, the one-party system loses its legitimacy.


The prospect is annihilation in an upsurge of unrest. The punishment of a high official is clearly meant as an example to the party and the people alike.


"The Chinese have learned from their history," said Mr Sean O'Shea, a director of the Beijing-based consultants, Reid and Associates, who is originally from Westmeath. "The tolerance level for corruption has to be much lower in China because of the propensity for any such activity to swiftly become a challenge to basic social order, whether under the emperor or the party."


Tough punishments seem popular in China, which has the highest rate of executions in the world. There is an utter lack of public sympathy for apprehended officials.


In contrast to Ireland, where wealth and power are admired and the "untouchables" belong to the elite, class divisions are only now beginning to emerge in China, and the rich are envied rather than esteemed.


Deng Xiaoping said a decade ago that it was glorious to be rich, but the suspicion is deep-rooted that fat cats can get rich only through corruption.


There is a golden circle of sorts in China. No senior officer of the People's Liberation Army has ever been prosecuted, despite widespread reports of military involvement in large-scale smuggling.




Hundreds of government officials are said to be caught up in a gigantic smuggling racket in Fujian. But since it reportedly implicates high officials in Beijing with Fujian connections, a news blackout on the investigation has been imposed.


With the Premier, Zhu Rongji, dedicated to smashing corruption, it is a precarious circle to belong to. When starting his anti-corruption campaign two years ago, Mr Zhu said he had 100 coffins - 99 for corrupt apparatchiks, and one for himself if he failed to fill the others.


There is an obvious parallel in the growth of corruption in Ireland and China. In both countries money began seeping to officials and politicians when the economy started to take off. In China the opportunities for embezzlement multiplied more quickly, as state assets were privatised and banks continued to make up losses.


"Ten years ago there wasn't half as much corruption in China," said a Chinese economist. "Go back 20 years and there was almost none. There was nothing to spread around and public assets were of little value."


Now it has reached endemic proportions, and the sums are huge. Embezzlement from state funds in the first half of 1999 totalled 20 billion yuan (£1.7 billion), according to the government's conservative figures. In the same period, according to the People's Daily, 120 billion yuan of state funds, one-fifth of tax revenues, were "misused", a term which covers many sins.


But no one in China need fear a public tribunal - only the executioner's bullet.

 

[mqur1963]

Global Village Space |

When Mao took power in China in 1949, two years after Pakistan’s birth, China was a far
poorer country than Pakistan, with a lower per capita income. Today, China’s growth is an
economic miracle, whereas Pakistan’s economy is burdened by unemployment, inflation, and debt. The country is dependent upon China’s massive support.

After the Korean War, the US considered China an enemy; Pakistan, needing US support against the USSR-India axis, at first did not risk having too close a relationship with China. This changed in 1962 when China defeated India in a short and decisive war, and Pakistan, on the principle that ‘my enemy’s enemy is my friend,’ started to build a special relationship with China.

Zulfikar Ali Bhutto emerged as the leader of the China camp in Pakistan. China became an important supplier of arms to Pakistan, and Pakistan was one of the first countries to support China’s move to replace Taiwan in the UN.


The two critical events that cemented the Pak-China relationship were in 1971 when Pakistan facilitated Kissinger’s secret trip to China that led to the Mao – Nixon meeting in 1972, and 2015 when Xi Jinping visited Pakistan to launch the CPEC, a game-changer for Pakistan.

The Mao-Nixon meeting ended 20 years’ enmity after the Korean War, in which the People’s Republic of China, a year after its birth, had challenged the US, the world’s superpower and victor of the Second World War. Mao had lost his son on the battlefront in Korea.

Read full article...
What Can Pakistan Learn from the Chinese Miracle

1. From the national and cultural point of view, the common influence of Confucian culture in East Asian countries：
Attach importance to education
Work Hard
Collectivism
Highly identified with the State
Extremely secular

2. Economically export-oriented，Dedicated to improving production efficiency and Improvement of added value of products

3. Political stability and POLICY continuity，believe in law and social morality，Extremely low crime rate

So East Asia is called the Monster House，eg South Korea, economy Military the top ten in the world，But look around ，Korea , the one who was bullied, If South Korea were anywhere else -- South America, Africa, the Middle East, whatever -- it would be a regional hegemon.

Different backgrounds, different routes. Normally, I've been bullish on Iran. The potential of Iran is very great，Personally, I stilPersonally, I still think that industrialization is the primary goal of developing countries rather than anything else.
Pakistan still needs to find a way that suits its own.The experience of other countries can be used for reference.But if fully copy other country's model, it will basically not suit with Pakistan.

YOU IMPLEMENT QURAN AS YOUR CONSTITUTION ALL WILL BE GOOD DONOT LOOK AT KUFAR LOOK AT 1ST GENERATION OF MUSLIMS 'THAT IS WHAT OUR PROPHET SAID.YOU MUSLIMWILLBE SLAVE TO ALL UNTILL YOU GO BACK TO YOUR DEEN START FOLLOWING YOUR 1ST GENERATION'SAHABA"