We Don’t Seek Benevolence, But Don’t Malign us Either – Part I

[muse]

Xeric

What the most irksome question someone has posed in this thread? Some question that you really think is the mother of all stinkers?

 

[Xeric]

Xeric

What the most irksome question someone has posed in this thread? Some question that you really think is the mother of all stinkers?

None.

Isnt this fact quite irksome in itself?

 

[muse]

No, its not, but it is amusing - Khair, no problems, no worries

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Thank you for that response.

The reason I asked the question was to point out that on one hand, the OP states that "soldiers are not aliens. In fact they hail from the same villages and cities, have been schooled in local institutions as most Pakistanis, and been brought up in a similar environment" and then on the other goes on to justify the housing benefits accrued to them as part of military service, which would be fine if the rest of the society that gives rise to the soldiers is also able to enjoy similar securities.

The fact that such defense of Army's policies is a clear indication that increasing numbers of society feel left out to the extent of openly questioning the cossetting of the privileged ones. Unless these trends are arrested by delivering similar progress to the rest of society, breakdown is not far behind.

That, Sir, is my point.

so vote (if you eligible) for a government that will provide such provisions!

oh, and money doesnt fall from the sky....everyone needs to chip and do their role (pay your bills and taxes on time) and i think the govt. is over-staffed and too much is wasted on administrative or "other" expenses ('other' meaning drivers, fleet of cars, chefs, or funds siphoned off)

 

[muse]

so vote (if you eligible) for a government that will provide such provisions!

oh, and money doesnt fall from the sky....everyone needs to chip and do their role (pay your bills and taxes on time) and i think the govt. is over-staffed and too much is wasted on administrative or "other" expenses ('other' meaning drivers, fleet of cars, chefs, or funds siphoned off)

In the US, does everyone get benefits of GI bill?? Obviously not, the benefits for for those who serve/sacrifice, is it any different in Pakistan?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

in the US the families of active and retired servicemen/women get many benefits.....from pre-approved low interest bank loans (through armed forces affiliated credit unions); im friends even with someone in the US national guard and he's eligible for benefits -- he carries his govt. issued ID and displays it when doing any major purchases

so far i dont know what effect the massive Pentagon/defence cuts would have on any state sponsored programs.....probably few, since they cant afford to put a dent in the morale of active troops.....as it is, their recruitment numbers are going down in many states

 

[Hyperion]

Xeric mate, you have oversimplified lots of things in your argument(s)..... Interesting read nonetheless, no time to respond in-depth!

The perks are equal, already.

Probably, sir Qureshi or his beloved bureaucrats lack the knowledge of the same and nothing else.

As i mentioned in my piece, there is a very well maintained procedure to provide plots to the civil gazetted officers on the exact same lines as it is for the Armed Forces. The following scheme are specifically for these mighty bureaucrats:-

- Federal Government Employees Housing Scheme (Here's their eligibility criteria: Federal Government Employees Housing Foundation Islamabad)

- Punjab Government Servants Housing Foundation

This is what their website says their salient features are:

• All Punjab Govt. employees are eligible to become members.
• Provision of residential units to all the members after retirement.
• Provision of Government land free of cost for construction of houses.
• Membership opportunity for every Punjab Government Servant.
• Facility for members to pay the cost in advance through easy installments.
• Bank loan facility for payment of balance cost of the house upon retirement.
• Transfer of ownership rights upon taking posession [sic] .
• Permission to sell house one year after taking possession.

Punjab Government Servants Housing Foundation is specifically for Punjab Government Servants, and hence no one stops KPK, Sindh or AK to do the same for their govt servants.

Like i said, even Webby can do it for us, only if cars about us

- Police Foundation Housing Society (Even i cant even think of having a house in these, those living in Islamabad know what i am saying

- Pakistan Housing Authority (Formally known as Prime Minister Housing Authority (PMHA) is a Housing Scheme for the 'aam janta' (unfortunately when they like to portray themselves as such, i wont mind calling them the same). Any Pakistani, expat or not can enjoy its fruit. The thing is, they have to pay for it like any military officer, and probably this is what pains them.)

(Links to these societies are available ion my original writeup).

So,

there isnt any 'inequality', per se. The only difference might be that senior military officers can get "agriculture" land on retirement. Though the same can be procured by the civilian bureaucracy without much hassle.

A word about the so called agri land:

This land is not 'prime' land, nor does it yield crops automatically. Rather, the lands at the most far flung, poor to maintain and without water areas is given, with the expectation that the new owner will invest millions to make the land cultivable, and only then he can earn its fruit.

Also, this land is also available to civilian takers i.e. only if they want to, but they dont. Why? Because the land is in such a poor condition and such a remote place where it is nearly impossible to cultivate it.

For example, the land given to General Ayub is right at the ZERO LINE (border between Pakistan and India). i mean while standing anywhere in that land one can see the fencing done by indians and even say hello to the indian guard across the border. Now tell me, who would like to take such a piece of land? There is not water there, and the approach is inaccessible, probably mined. Those living in Sialkot must be well aware of this.

So, for the easy comprehension, one can say that it is a way to actually make such land usable, that we give it to government people.

Lastly, before Cheng starts to justify his post by saying that his aim was to, and that 'other' Pakistanis should also get the same 'perks', i must tell you that he was not, because if that had been the case, he could have mentioned the same in his premise.

So much for understanding the very simple inglish i had written in my piece and having an unbiased approach from an expat's point of view.

And for Sir Qureshi, get a facking life, or come on PDF so that you can be dealt with properly

 

[VCheng]

Xeric

What the most irksome question someone has posed in this thread? Some question that you really think is the mother of all stinkers?

None.

Isnt this fact quite irksome in itself?

No, its not, but it is amusing - Khair, no problems, no worries

Oh yes, imagine the audacity of bloody civilians to dare question the rightful and sole authority of the mighty guardians to do as they please!

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

Why such a panic, why this defensive attitude, let them pose as many questions as they like to - answer all of their questions - next thing you know, it's end of story - There is absolutely no need for this effeminate offense taking, just respond to the questions with a view to educate and inform, turn a potential negative int a positive.

Sir, if you see from a neutral perspective Army is answering all the answers in its capacity. Am i wrong? In Asghar Khan Case, don't you think that both Generals appeared in SC, not for 1,2 years but throughout 16 years of the hearing. Similarly, in Royal Palm scam, at the first notice, the gentlemen appeared and recorded their statement. No one in media appreciate it.

On the other hand no civilian behavior is exemplary. CJ's attitude towards his son's corruption story is a clear example. Everybody knows how he is trying to hide his son's corruption. Tauqeer Sadiq, a bureaucrat in OGDCL is still at large. He has done corruption of 82 billion rupees. All civil state machinery is protecting him because he is a close relative of Jahangir Badar. Now, have i not got the right to ask that why only Pakistan Army suffers all media/judiciary bashing, when its share in corruption is negligible as compared to civilian corruption?

 

[muse]

Sir, if you see from a neutral perspective Army is answering all the answers in its capacity. Am i wrong? In Asghar Khan Case, don't you think that both Generals appeared in SC, not for 1,2 years but throughout 16 years of the hearing. Similarly, in Royal Palm scam, at the first notice, the gentlemen appeared and recorded their statement. No one in media appreciate it.

On the other hand no civilian behavior is exemplary. CJ's attitude towards his son's corruption story is a clear example. Everybody knows how he is trying to hide his son's corruption. Tauqeer Sadiq, a bureaucrat in OGDCL is still at large. He has done corruption of 82 billion rupees. All civil state machinery is protecting him because he is a close relative of Jahangir Badar. Now, have i not got the right to ask that why only Pakistan Army suffers all media/judiciary bashing, when its share in corruption is negligible as compared to civilian corruption?

Rajput

From a neutral perspective, we can say that Pakistan army is being made to provide answers - isn't this so? but lets move on to the heart of your post : " have i not got the right to ask that why only Pakistan Army suffers all media/judiciary bashing, when its share in corruption is negligible as compared to civilian corruption?"

Please note what it is you giving away to those on any opposite side - first, you are conceding that there is corruption in the Pakistan Army -- but you argue that given that bureaucrats are more corrupt, Army corruption should get less media attention - Are bureaucrats passing themselves off as guardians of Pakistan? Do you really want to accept corruption in the armed forces?

Rajput, this attention is a net positive - the armed forces cannot be just some institution, it's just this notion that has brought corruption to such a level in the armed forces - the services are about sacrifice on behalf of the many, on behalf of the nation, not theft.

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

Rajput

From a neutral perspective, we can say that Pakistan army is being made to provide answers - isn't this so? but lets move on to the heart of your post : " have i not got the right to ask that why only Pakistan Army suffers all media/judiciary bashing, when its share in corruption is negligible as compared to civilian corruption?"

Please note what it is you giving away to those on any opposite side - first, you are conceding that there is corruption in the Pakistan Army -- but you argue that given that bureaucrats are more corrupt, Army corruption should get less media attention - Are bureaucrats passing themselves off as guardians of Pakistan? Do you really want to accept corruption in the armed forces?

Rajput, this attention is a net positive - the armed forces cannot be just some institution, it's just this notion that has brought corruption to such a level in the armed forces - the services are about sacrifice on behalf of the many, on behalf of the nation, not theft.

Sir, what i tried to say is that corruption is something which effect a society as a whole. Corruption happened in even countries like France, Japan also. In Pakistan, the corruption has effected every institution including army. Army is also a part of our society isn't it?

Yes, i agree that everyone expect higher moral values from them but it also holds true for judges, CSP officers, media anchors and politicians also. The problem here is that perception which is being created intentionally that all corruption and bad to this country is done by army only. Parliament is there na? Why did it has failed to pass an accountability bill in 5 years?
Why it has become a fashion in our country to put your own failures on someone else?
Laws should be equal for everyone. Whether a General or Civilian. If someone has committed a crime he/she should be bring into justice.

 

[MastanKhan]

In the US, does everyone get benefits of GI bill?? Obviously not, the benefits for for those who serve/sacrifice, is it any different in Pakistan?

Hi,

Absolutely---every service personal gets benefit of thew GI bill---subsidized home loan interest rates---car loans from their own credit unions---special military incentives on cars---for college education funds---.

In the u s the business who hire veterans coming back from war---get paid extra incentive---there are jobs---there is job training---there is education---depends what you want to do---.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Oh yes, imagine the audacity of bloody civilians to dare question the rightful and sole authority of the mighty guardians to do as they please!

you know youve hit rock bottom when questioning the wisdom or loyalties of the bozos of Islamabad and the bozos of the Provincials who loot and plunder and cant even provide security to its citizens even during Muharram processions (and no, that's not army job) --and then questioning even is considering "libelous" and a threat to democracy


BS


Zardari's govt. banned vulgar language via PTCL bill; orders curbs on online material offensive to him. When did Army ban all the army bashing sites, some which made by traitors inside our country who would even sell their own mothers for publicity

 

[VCheng]

you know youve hit rock bottom when questioning the wisdom or loyalties of the bozos of Islamabad and the bozos of the Provincials who loot and plunder and cant even provide security to its citizens even during Muharram processions (and no, that's not army job) --and then questioning even is considering "libelous" and a threat to democracy


BS

Law and Order is indeed hitting rock bottom. The failures of governance of the civilian side are just as bad as the gross and habitual overstepping of Constitutional limits by the Army. Both must be condemned and rectified.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Rajput

From a neutral perspective, we can say that Pakistan army is being made to provide answers - isn't this so? but lets move on to the heart of your post : " have i not got the right to ask that why only Pakistan Army suffers all media/judiciary bashing, when its share in corruption is negligible as compared to civilian corruption?"

Please note what it is you giving away to those on any opposite side - first, you are conceding that there is corruption in the Pakistan Army -- but you argue that given that bureaucrats are more corrupt, Army corruption should get less media attention - Are bureaucrats passing themselves off as guardians of Pakistan? Do you really want to accept corruption in the armed forces?

Rajput, this attention is a net positive - the armed forces cannot be just some institution, it's just this notion that has brought corruption to such a level in the armed forces - the services are about sacrifice on behalf of the many, on behalf of the nation, not theft.

simply stated in a simple languge:

Army is no stranger to corruption. But it is by FAR the least corrupt; most structured and most disciplined institution.

I challenge anyone here to even prove to me how Army is making inroads into politics. Believe me, I WISH the Army was k*cking the ***** of all the absconders and criminals we have as politicians but they cant! Times have evolved, times have changed. Army aint dumb, they read the signals and adjust accordingly especially after 2007

Army does have a say though, i believe. As per Jinnah and as per Constitution.


Hang the goons who actually rape and plunder our country and dont even declare their assests or hold real masters degree -- then we could talk about army corruption if it exist