We deserve to know the truth about the tirah valley operation and 35 punjab regiment

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The terrain and threat in Tirah is largely similar to that faced by US troops in the Korengal Valley in Kunar province bordering this region - The Korengal Valley came to be known as 'The Valley of Death' and from where the US withdrew after suffering significant casualties with no tangible progress to show against the Taliban - the US lost the war for Korengal despite winning almost every battle.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/world/asia/15outpost.html?_r=0

In comparison the Pakistan Army has, by all indications so far, won more territory and has significantly greater control over Tirah Valley. The PA's victory in Tirah, where the US Army failed in Korengal, is not because the PA is tactically or qualitatively superior to the US Military (a little more on that later), but because the PA went into Tirah with a clearer strategic understanding of what needed to be done and how to do it and the fact that this was OUR land - the PA isn't going back to a home thousands of miles away. If anything, the average PA soldier still lags behind the average US soldier in overall fitness, quality and equipment (and before the outrage begins, please note emphasis on the term 'average' - I am not comparing the elite units where soldiers are pretty equally matched in terms of fitness, quality and equipment). That gap grows significantly wider when we factor in transport and air-support. The Pakistan Army's higher casualty counts, not just in Tirah but in our operations across FATA, are a reflection of the above.

The discussion on this thread over the high troop casualties in the Tiran Operation is watering down (in a very human need to look for simple answers to complex questions) a very complex military operation in very challenging terrain against a well trained, well equipped enemy that had lived and prepared for battle in said terrain for over a decade, with proper logistical lines stretching into safe havens across the border in Afghanistan. This was essentially a battle against a regular military force (that did not follow any rules of engagement - IED's planted in dead bodies) entrenched in extremely inhospitable terrain, with the opponent only lacking heavy artillery and air support, and the PA's advantage in air and heavy artillery support significantly negated by the terrain.

The impact of air and artillery support (to preempt terrorist attacks on PA positions) would be limited given the heavily forested & mountainous terrain and the difficulty in spotting and identifying targets before engagements started. Air and artillery strikes would, largely, be called in when troops came under attack, and given the terrain and lack of quality air-assets in the PA and PAF (compared to the air-support available to US troops in Korengal for example) to provide 24/7 support, the support was nowhere as effective as some people think. Since we didn't (couldn't) NAPALM vast parts of Tirah, this was always going to be a very bloody and difficult infantry battle, with the TTP having the significant advantage of being the entrenched defending force occupying almost all heights and critical locations and established lines of support, and the PA still ripped them out of their rat-holes in a matter of a couple of weeks.

None of us are privy to the AAR's of each engagement, none of us know what kinds of pressure the unit leaders faced when deployed to move through the forested valleys and mountains of Tirah. What we do know is that casualties were guaranteed, and quite frankly I don't see how the PA could have reduced them by any significant amount, given the decision (and need) to take control of the valley in weeks rather and months and years.

That said, my assessment above is limited to the engagements in Tirah Valley. I agree with some of the other posters that the PA has suffered significant casualties, that were preventable, from engagements such as the ambush of a convoy in Khyber in a semi-urban area. After years of experience with the tactics of the TTP, how and why the convoy moved through an obvious ambush zone without taking the necessary precautions and/or clearing it first is infuriating.

 

[Psychic]

You are right and i never doubted welfare or army as a institution. I was talking about operational requirements and measures to avoid loss of precious lives. Look at this picture do they have any serious fire power or protection against multiple ambush attacks and IED's? What about ******* MaxPro's and Buffalo's?

Nato troops move in bullet proof humvees while our soldiers travell in "daalas". Despite all the new cool stuff like knee and elbow guards and kelvar. O wait! The glass is half full!

 

[RealNapster]

Over time , operational improvements have been made both to gear and tactics but still there is room for improvment

There are now however very detailed standard operating procedures (SOPs) in place with regards to how convoys and troops should move.

For example in the above picture you can be certain that , before the convoy moved out , the ridges would be secured and presence would be established on peak tops , movement of others vehicles would be stopped and in more active areas , gunship cover would be there as well

But room for improvement in gear and tactics is there



In other words , the figure you quoted is hearsay from your friend who is from that area who lives near the place where the encounter happened ... simple

there is a difference between "believing hearsay" which u and me are doing and "making a wild guess" by watching somethng... Btw, Not you mistake. You and your logics may continue

 

[salarsikander]

U need to understand that Kashmir has no official flag the one we have doesn't represent the Muslims living there and I was born in England this is the reason why I don't wish to display any flag

Hi,
Then as such, you have no right to ask for that information, since you do not consider yourself pakistani

Simple!

 

[macnurv]

You idiot... he was there means it took right near to there house. "An idiot will remains an idiot until and unless he is stopped of doing so"

Listen you dickbag, he must have been as big of an idiot as you to stay in his house which was right in the midst of battle. So keep your BS to yourself.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Nato troops move in bullet proof humvees while our soldiers travell in "daalas". Despite all the new cool stuff like knee and elbow guards and kelvar. O wait! The glass is half full!

That observation is correct with respect to a vast majority of the operations in FATA, where the terrain supports the use of armored HUMVEES, APC's and MRAP's and air-assets such as drones can be deployed for better situational awareness but it is not applicable in the case of the Tirah Valley operation.

I'm not sure what the status on providing NVG's and related equipment to all troops deployed in combat zones is, but that would definitely be an improvement.

 

[pakdefender]

there is a difference between "believing hearsay" which u and me are doing and "making a wild guess" by watching somethng... Btw, Not you mistake. You and your logics may continue

you see over the years I have heard many tales from "people from that area" , I'll tell you one such from a "person from that area" , who said that there a unknown people who have come into their village, we don't know who these people are , the whole village is scared of them their eyes are blood red ....... hmmmmmmm

Yeh topi dramay ab ziyada dair nahin chalay gay , now everyone know who is doing what and where and operations will continue till the whole area is secured.

In causal talk with some PA officers , they say we are in it for the long haul i.e 15 to 20 years and that is the timeline that GHQ is planning on, plans are for operations as well as rehabilitation and integration of the area, so like they say tighten the belts , this is not going to end anytime soon

 

[Psychic]

That observation is correct with respect to a vast majority of the operations in FATA, where the terrain supports the use of armored HUMVEES, APC's and MRAP's and air-assets such as drones can be deployed for better situational awareness but it is not applicable in the case of the Tirah Valley operation.

Aren't there any roads in Tirah valley despite it being a forested and mountanious area? Some members here posted pics of TTP dead being loaded into toyota vehicles after the PA's counter offensive in Tirah started. I know that PA adapted itself to tactics of TTP but the TTP also adapts and uses it's brain in picking it's fights hence the casualties in convoy ambush, attacks on posts etc.

 

[RealNapster]

Listen you dickbag, he must have been as big of an idiot as you to stay in his house which was right in the midst of battle. So keep your BS to yourself.

for your kind information , the battle is actually IN houses and villages. Now f***Off.

you see over the years I have heard many tales from "people from that area" , I'll tell you one such from a "person from that area" , who said that there a unknown people who have come into their village, we don't know who these people are , the whole village is scared of them their eyes are blood red ....... hmmmmmmm

Yeh topi dramay ab ziyada dair nahin chalay gay , now everyone know who is doing what and where and operations will continue till the whole area is secured.

In causal talk with some PA officers , they say we are in it for the long haul i.e 15 to 20 years and that is the timeline that GHQ is planning on, plans are for operations as well as rehabilitation and integration of the area, so like they say tighten the belts , this is not going to end anytime soon

Offtopic

 

[pakdefender]

Aren't there any roads in Tirah valley despite it being a forested and mountanious area? Some members here posted pics of TTP dead being loaded into toyota vehicles after the PA's counter offensive in Tirah started. I know that PA adapted itself to tactics of TTP but the TTP also adapts and uses it's brain in picking it's fights hence the casualties in convoy ambush, attacks on posts etc.

Road network is slowly being built , as it was done in SWA and now in NWA , the Army plans to cut into all these inaccessible areas via road networks after clearing the areas of militants, the FWO has done a great deal in this regard.

Insha Allah , one day we'll see a winding roads going around the mountains of Tirah valley, just like the roads that go up to Muree

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Aren't there any roads in Tirah valley despite it being a forested and mountanious area? Some members here posted pics of TTP dead being loaded into toyota vehicles after the PA's counter offensive in Tirah started. I know that PA adapted itself to tactics of TTP but the TTP also adapts and uses it's brain in picking it's fights hence the casualties in convoy ambush, attacks on posts etc.

As I tried to explain in post 76 We deserve to know the truth about the tirah valley operation and 35 punjab regiment | Page 6

There might be dirt tracks to villages in the mountains, but it's pretty common knowledge that infrastructure in FATA, even in the 'plains', is poor. Take a look at the image of the terrain of Tirah I posted in my earlier post. Do you really expect APC's and MRAP's to operate there?

 

[Psychic]

As I tried to explain in post 76 We deserve to know the truth about the tirah valley operation and 35 punjab regiment | Page 6

There might be dirt tracks to villages in the mountains, but it's pretty common knowledge that infrastructure in FATA, even in the 'plains', is poor. Take a look at the image of the terrain of Tirah I posted in my earlier post. Do you really expect APC's and MRAP's to operate there?

I can post an image like that from Muree as well. The TTP in Pak and Afghan talibs in Afghanistan are quite capable of conducting ambushes on dirt tracks. In fact dirt tracks provide them with easy ambush opertunities. Most of the area of Tirah does not include roads or dirt tracks.(but some does) I agree with that. as well.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I can post an image like that from Muree as well. The TTP in Pak and Afghan talibs in Afghanistan are quite capable of conducting ambushes on dirt tracks. In fact dirt tracks provide them with easy ambush opertunities. Most of the area of Tirah does not include roads or dirt tracks.(but some does) I agree with that. as well.

I don't understand what the point of mentioning Murree is? I posted the image from Tirah Valley to visually illustrate how challenging the terrain is and so people could try and understand the kind of terrain PA troops had to operate in during the Tirah Valley operation.

I didn't say ambushes can't occur on dirt tracks. Ambush opportunities exist anywhere terrorists can find cover - urban and semi-urban areas offer cover in the form of buildings whereas terrain like Tirah offers natural cover and in places both natural and man-made cover.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

for your kind information , the battle is actually IN houses and villages. Now f***Off.
View attachment 232948

View attachment 232949


Offtopic

this pic is old, way more old. Its from the first month of op zarb e azb. In this photo they are clearing Miran Shah the capital of NWA. In this picture u can see these Men are from 4th commando Yalghar battalion of SSG not regular infantry men.

In the pic the man in the middle in second row is my Shaheed Friend Akash (u can see his more clear pic in my avatar). He was embraced martyrdom exactly one month after op was launched in 15 july 2014.

 

[thrilainmanila]

there is a difference between "believing hearsay" which u and me are doing and "making a wild guess" by watching somethng... Btw, Not you mistake. You and your logics may continue

he has no logic at all he's completely dumb and delluded the guy has worse educational difficulties then umar baqwaas, but to be totally honest umar baqwaas is a special kind of dumb.