Washington's Loss, Moscow's Gain? Russia 'Cozying Up' With Pakistan

[Dalit]

I sleep like a baby...

As for serving in Afghanistan.. It's been what? 14 years or more? What have you achieved in Afghanistan..

Not really a hard question to answer .. Is it?

As for Vietnam.. Not sure what you achieved there.. The communists still rule Vietnam..


You lost dozens of thousands of troops.. The Viets lost millions... And south Vietnam still fell.. And as usual you left ... Achieving nothing except millions of dead Viets and generations suffering from deformities thanks to agent orange or Mai Lais.



They turned their ships when the Soviets sent theirs... And sanctioned Pakistan.. How helpful.


Pak should have good relations with USA.. But trusting them is the worst thing one can do.. US looks for her interests.. And thanks to their engagement with Pak.. (And learning from mistakes).. Pakistan looks and should look out for its own.

Even in 65 .. US sanctioned Pakistan.. Than in the 70s... And than again in the 90s .. Lifted then in 2000s when US needed Pak (again) for Afghanistan..

We need to have neutral relations with the US. Having good or bad relations with the US has always proved tricky. As soon we as we have good relations the Americans have all sorts of unreasonable expectations from Pakistan. We cannot deliver on their expectations. I don't need to explain why having bad relations is never good. Neutral is the way forward.

I concur. The sanctions are a clear indication that US Pakistan relations are a one way street. Pakistan should focus on regional allies. The Americans don't belong to this region and are oceans apart.

 

[James David]

US didn't come to pak's aid ? OMG how ingrateful bunch you guys are !

We sent a battle group near the indian coast ! The intent was to desist indian forces from crossing over the boundary and let the negotiations in UN reach some fruition. But your leadership's high testosterone attitude didn't let things fall in place.

Go check the videos of pak representative in UN before the war. Look the way he was talking in the session and threw the paper in the air and nonchalantly declared that "we will tough it out ourselves". Then you guys as an act of pure battlefield tactical genius bombed the indian airbases without even shoring up the defenses in bangladesh !

What you guys effectively did was move the dynamics from the negotiation table to a war room where things were supposed to have gone down in surprising ways. Military operations by it's nature do.

If we would have relented I don't think you guys were getting those ~100 thousand POWs back without giving some part of land in your west as well !

@Gamer-X there you go. An American "Red Coat" has said it all now go back to school. Move along boy!

@Providence old buddy! Where in the world have you been? Haven't seen your posts in a while!

You don't get it do you? We have no interest in adding millions of people to our country's already huge population.

Think again.

Who said you want to add millions to you population!? Read then think before posting!

What would you call a nation that used nuclear weapons on a hapless nation like Japan which had none and now has the audacity to dictate which state should and should not have nukes? After a history of stealing Mexican land and killing indigenous Indians if America is called evil then I fully support this stand. US is a bully and it is definitely evil.

Japan was hardly helpless. @Nihonjin1051 , can you please explain to our little friend here he seems to have a hard time believing what happened in the last century.

I won't be surprised if you say the same thing to China 10 years from now , USA has historically been one of Pakistan's biggest allies . Its really disappointing to see how USA gets bashed here after all they have done .

You let yourself become their proxy, no one forced you to start a war. And its extremely self centered to expect USA and UK to attack those nuclear subs in the 70s .

Agreed brother Very well said. Now prepare your a** for bashing from these guys!!!

Stop comparing China and the US. There is no comparison. China has no history of bullying and occupying other countries on false pretences. China doesn't interfere nor overthrow regimes. China doesn't arm rebel and militant groups. China simply conducts business and doesn't meddle in the internal matters of other countries. There will never be any reason for Pakistan to compare China with the US as long as they don't resort to duplicity and backstabbing.

The US has only extracted its interests and it applies this policy for every country. The US isn't an ally of Pakistan and never has been. The US provides aid in return for political and various other favors. The the US walks over dead bodies of other people to achieve their interests. For instance, in Pakistan the US has killed countless innocent people including women and children during indiscriminate drone strikes. They provide all sorts of excuses to defend the killing, but their unilateral actions break all conventions.

Military rulers and democratic leaders alike in Pakistan have made the mistake by taking aid from the US and adhering to their duplicitous demands. The people of Pakistan are fed up with both the policies of the government and the duplicitous relation with the US. Don't blame the Pakistani people for demanding change. Th protest and dislike of the people isn't going to change unless both the government and the US change their hypocritical ways.

@haviZsultan , as I have said to you numerous times my friend...

STOP LISTENING AND WATCHING "AMERICA IS EVIL" PROPAGANDA!! ITS SCREWING YOUR MIND!!! YOU STILL DID NOT LISTEN!!

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

@Gamer-X there you go. An American "Red Coat" has said it all now go back to school. Move along boy!

@Providence old buddy! Where in the world have you been? Haven't seen your posts in a while!



Who said you want to add millions to you population!? Read then think before posting!



Japan was hardly helpless. @Nihonjin1051 , can you please explain to our little friend here he seems to have a hard time believing what happened in the last century.



Agreed brother Very well said. Now prepare your a** for bashing from these guys!!!



@haviZsultan , as I have said to you numerous times my friend...

STOP LISTENING AND WATCHING "AMERICA IS EVIL" PROPAGANDA!! ITS SCREWING YOUR MIND!!! YOU STILL DID NOT LISTEN!!

Let's be honest man... US didn't help us in 71.. US backed off after the Soviets sent their subs... @Providence That was Bhuttos speech after the war.. The 90k included mostly civilians (including women and children)... The total number of troops during the war was 36,000.

And it wasn't US that helped free them.. The soldiers remained in jails for years.. And instead US sanctioned Pakistan.. Meanwhile diplomatic support on Kashmir was ensured to Pak (even during 62 ind-Sino war-- when US convinced Gen Ayub not to join the war -- Chinese has offered us too)...useless seato,cento pacts...
Leaving Pak to deal with the shyt hitting the fan in Afghanistan - post Cold War..Presslers ammendment,sanctions The threat to "bomb Pak to Stone Age" if Pak remained neutral on Afghsnistan... Etc etc aren't remembered nicely by Pak..

USA only "supports" you when she needs you.. That's the sad reality..

Thanks to our historic "relationship" .. People are reluctant to trust America and even a goodwill gesture is sometimes seen with suspicion ...

 

[CHD]

US didn't come to pak's aid ? OMG how ingrateful bunch you guys are !

We sent a battle group near the indian coast ! The intent was to desist indian forces from crossing over the boundary and let the negotiations in UN reach some fruition. But your leadership's high testosterone attitude didn't let things fall in place.

Go check the videos of pak representative in UN before the war. Look the way he was talking in the session and threw the paper in the air and nonchalantly declared that "we will tough it out ourselves". Then you guys as an act of pure battlefield tactical genius bombed the indian airbases without even shoring up the defenses in bangladesh !

What you guys effectively did was move the dynamics from the negotiation table to a war room where things were supposed to have gone down in surprising ways. Military operations by it's nature do.

If we would have relented I don't think you guys were getting those ~100 thousand POWs back without giving some part of land in your west as well !

Before 71 there was 62 and US asked Pakistan not to attack india.If Pakistan did, we could have easily taken back Kashmir and some other indian regions too.But as usual US betrayed us and they did nothing for kashmir after the war, if US with its allies after the war pushed the UN to go for a referendum in kashmir without any pre conditions, then Pakistan would have easily gotten kashmir

 

[New Resolve]

Memory lane: Well anyway guys here we are. I think an important lesson learnt by Pak is that have good relations with the Russians, comes in really handy.

 

[James David]

I think you dont get it what we mean by 62, china have already responded to indian adventures and india was in no position to defend anything on western border

Don't get what!? That they won and you lost? How hard was it to understand?

 

[Spectre]

Don't get what!? That they won and you lost? How hard was it to understand?

As they say - Victory has 1000 fathers and Defeat none. SO you will see all sort of excuses regarding why loosing half their people and suffering one of the worst defeats in post WW2 era was not really a defeat.

It is another matter that Pakistan has never really won a war - but kudos to them they keep on trying. A- Effort, F- For results.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Don't get what!? That they won and you lost? How hard was it to understand?

Didnt know the Vietcong did you this bad. Have you lost your memory or they dont teach you the history in the US 62 was the war between China and India on the eastern flanks of India, far away from Pakistani border, and China did India proper doggy style. During the war, your president Kennedy, personally send message to Ayub Khan not to take advantage of Indian vulnerability over Kashmir as the Indian *** was already stretched by the Chinese.

 

[Dash]

India, US, Israel west all are Zionists. but "East or West, Pakistan is best"

 

[KN-1]

The reality is we backstab each other mostly US, hence we (PAK-US) cant have friendship, we should maintain neutral relations only. Pakistan from now on should prioritise regional countries (SCO, SAARC) middle east, Africa and east asia for every kind of coopreation including Defense. The on-going defense deals with US should be last one. Bcoz its more likely that uncle sam will soon going to blame whole Afghanistan mess on us and will sanction us again.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Your first line explains why you lost East Pakistan. Most West Pakistanis considered East Pakistan as a colony, and not home (as you wrote above) and treated it as such.. Hence the differences and inevitable separation. India was simply the catalyst. This was long time coming either way

I don't take your rants seriously .. A guy who bitchez about arming afghanistan,Vietnam etc with nukes .. Apart from other nonsense... Hence aptly named karna loosemotions.

@Spectre you jack a** you cracked me up!!! Hahahahahahaha! F - for results?



@Taimoor Khan buddy, I was not even born in 62 how can the Vietcong mess me up? Well why didn't you take advantage of that "Indian Vulnerability" then? Its not that we control your decisions right? Even if he did call your President, why would he follow? Not unless he is Kennedy's b*tch right?

Don't know about Kennedy but Nixon in 71 cheered for Pak (how 35k Pak were banging 75 mil Bangalis n indians... Infact he called Indians bastards,dogs etc).

 

[true]

Stop comparing China and the US. There is no comparison. China has no history of bullying and occupying other countries on false pretences. China doesn't interfere nor overthrow regimes. China doesn't arm rebel and militant groups. China simply conducts business and doesn't meddle in the internal matters of other countries. There will never be any reason for Pakistan to compare China with the US as long as they don't resort to duplicity and backstabbing.

The US has only extracted its interests and it applies this policy for every country. The US isn't an ally of Pakistan and never has been. The US provides aid in return for political and various other favors. The US walks over dead bodies of other people to achieve their interests. For instance, in Pakistan the US has killed countless innocent people including women and children during indiscriminate drone strikes. They provide all sorts of excuses to defend the killing, but their unilateral actions break all conventions. Don't expect the people to love the Americans when they resort to duplicitous behavior.

Military rulers and democratic leaders alike in Pakistan have made the horrendous mistake by taking aid from the US and adhering to their duplicitous demands. The people of Pakistan are fed up with both the appeasing policies of the government and the duplicitous relation with the US. Don't blame the Pakistani people for demanding change. The protest and dislike of the people isn't going to change anytime soon unless both the government and the US change their hypocritical ways. The US cannot change the perception of the people by throwing money or paid advertisements. The people are fully aware.

1.
What? China is the living definition of political bullying , in which reality do you live in ?

She justifies territory claim with outrageous ancestral claims , Taiwan , Vietnam , India, former Tibet , Philippines , Mongolia , afghanistan , Nepal , Bhutan , Japan, USA and many more have openly criticized China. Every vessel state inside her are oppressed.


2.

that's ridiculous , if you have someone to blame for the drone strikes blame your own government . What kind of logic are you using here ? Your government allowed USA to perform military operations , you government took the American money , your government accepted their help . They weren't some thugs who sunk into your country to destabilize it .

 

[karan.1970]

I don't take your rants seriously .. A guy who bitchez about arming afghanistan,Vietnam etc with nukes .. Apart from other nonsense... Hence aptly named karna loosemotions.

 

[Providence]

@Providence old buddy! Where in the world have you been? Haven't seen your posts in a while!

Have been and will be pretty busy till next couple of months ! I am looking for a job sadly

Let's be honest man... US didn't help us in 71.. US backed off after the Soviets sent their subs... @Providence That was Bhuttos speech after the war.. The 90k included mostly civilians (including women and children)... The total number of troops during the war was 36,000.

And it wasn't US that helped free them.. The soldiers remained in jails for years.. And instead US sanctioned Pakistan.. Meanwhile diplomatic support on Kashmir was ensured to Pak (even during 62 ind-Sino war-- when US convinced Gen Ayub not to join the war -- Chinese has offered us too)...useless seato,cento pacts...
Leaving Pak to deal with the shyt hitting the fan in Afghanistan - post Cold War..Presslers ammendment,sanctions The threat to "bomb Pak to Stone Age" if Pak remained neutral on Afghsnistan... Etc etc aren't remembered nicely by Pak..

USA only "supports" you when she needs you.. That's the sad reality..

Thanks to our historic "relationship" .. People are reluctant to trust America and even a goodwill gesture is sometimes seen with suspicion ...

I know most of them were non-combatants. Just quoted some ballpark number for POWs. We never claimed to have freed them but we sure take credit for making sure no boundaries are redrawn outside of the battle theater meaning the west.

And please bro let's not dissect the diplomatic moves individually as black and white.

US have always opposed the spread of nuclear weapons outside of the big 5 and we had valid reasons for that. CIA had definite intelligence about the pak move towards nuclearisation and the pressler act was part of that.

During that time our military to military synergy was also at it's peak where we successfully slapped the soviet moves towards warm waters. How do you fit that in your narrative?

As for the post 2001 threat, it was mostly posturing to make sure that things moved fast in diplomatic circles. No power could have made pakistan agree to set up bases if it didn't had the least bit interest in it. You have to accept it. E.g. You guys stopped our military caravans heading to afganistan and our forces too suffered setbacks that time. Did we bomb you guys that time ? No

Most importantly, If we wanted to just nuke around countries, we could have just nuked afganisthan straightaway. Why would we nuke pakistan so that we could send conventional forces to afganisthan ? Isn't that ludicrous ? Think about it !

 

[Max Pain]

You can change that even now.

For example, it was a smart move by your PM Sharif to tell Saudi and Iran that you will not take sides, barring the reports of increasing PA troop presence inside Saudi Arabia. I know you guys are close but do unto others what they are willing to do for you.

This is the perfect chance to wiggle out of this US-China-Saudi-Iran-Turkey-Russia-EU treadmill that your leaders have been constantly running on for decades.

Unless and until your generals and politicians take the initiative to create an independent Pakistani perspective of the world, your politics will continue to be hijacked by lobbies that curry favour to any of these 7 entities I mentioned above.

The world is bigger than these countries. It will take many years of grinding hard work to cultivate the kind of mature political stand but it will be worth it. In short term it will not work in your favour but in a couple of decades you will see its benefits.

Think about it.

I believe now for the first time things are indeed going towards the right direction,
our leaders now are realizing that.
we are simultaneously now engaging with the above mentioned countries and also many other smaller states,
we have shown neutrality in matters regarding Middle east and even the Russian Aggression.
we have made attempts to strenghthen our relations with central Asian states,

so far its going in the right direction and I hope the mistakes of past are not repeated.