VN-1 Wheeled APCs are we Getting Them in Big Numbers!!

[Safriz]

I hope FC Balochistan gets these for use against Baloch terrorists.
It's unfair to send the soldiers in Toyota pickup only to be torn into pieces by IED or ambushed by Balochi terrorists.

 

[nomi007]

USA is leaving Afghanistan
Eygpt & UAE are buying large number of MRAP from US.
Why we are not?

 

[Zulfiqar]

We don't have the budget to get MRAPS that can only have capacity of 4-8 personnel to cater to FC balochistan.

Depending upon terrain, we should procure this for FC as this can carry 16 personnel. Not every area of Balochistan will be covered but it would be still better than buying an MRAP with capacity of 4-8 persons that would most probably have the same cost.

Russia has been using the same in syria.

https://www.army-technology.com/projects/kamaz-63969-typhoon-mrap-armoured-vehicle/

 

[Falcon26]

105mm gun on IFV is useless in the Pakistani context.

Either get MBTs with 125mm gun or IFVs with 30mm auto-cannon + ATGMs (as on Viper).

There is a move in the West towards 40mm auto-cannons, but such calibre greatly reduces the number of rounds that can be carried.

Why are they useless? Are there any technical analysis to reach this conclusion? This statement and “there are no funds” is habitually thrown around in this forum in knee jerk manner.

 

[Armchair]

Why are they useless? Are there any technical analysis to reach this conclusion? This statement and “there are no funds” is habitually thrown around in this forum in knee jerk manner.

PA doctrine makes them useless because there is no scope for IFV in it. APCs are used only as battle taxis, with no meaningful combat role. This has somewhat changed with HAT regiments having ATGM armed M113s, but these are to be at the rear edge of the battlefield.

The idea of an IFV is to basically do what infantry tanks were designed to do - support infantry directly in the battlefield. PA thinks that due to massive Indian ATGM / tanks / artillery / RR, IFVs will not be very survivable.

I personally have been writing in this forum for a long time about this. My idea is to use wheeled tanks / uparmed IFVs / gun mortar systems from the rear edge of the battlefield but this is unlikely to happen.

 

[Gryphon]

PA doctrine makes them useless because there is no scope for IFV in it. APCs are used only as battle taxis, with no meaningful combat role. This has somewhat changed with HAT regiments having ATGM armed M113s, but these are to be at the rear edge of the battlefield.

The idea of an IFV is to basically do what infantry tanks were designed to do - support infantry directly in the battlefield. PA thinks that due to massive Indian ATGM / tanks / artillery / RR, IFVs will not be very survivable.

I personally have been writing in this forum for a long time about this. My idea is to use wheeled tanks / uparmed IFVs / gun mortar systems from the rear edge of the battlefield but this is unlikely to happen.

The notion that there is no scope of IFVs in PA doctrine isn't entirely accurate. The 'battle taxi' concept from the APCs is envisaged to continue even after the introduction of IFVs - you get a good idea of it while looking at the HIT Viper (30mm + ATGMs + a section of 10 troops) - which is built to meet PA requirements.

The difference in employment vs M113 being - the IFV can provide armed support to the MBTs and dismounted infantry from a distance against ground & low-altitude aerial threats.

Regarding the suggested usage of 8x8 wheeled APCs on the western borders, IMO, there is no substitute to securing the hills along the roads and robust road opening party (ROP) measures. Lakhs of FC/Army/other troops stationed on the western borders means:

• MRAP/APC for all troops not possible.
• The limited no. of MRAP/APC vehicles will be reserved for ROP and patrolling duties.

 

[Armchair]

The notion that there is no scope of IFVs in PA doctrine isn't entirely accurate. The 'battle taxi' concept from the APCs is envisaged to continue even after the introduction of IFVs - you get a good idea of it while looking at the HIT Viper (30mm + ATGMs + a section of 10 troops) - which is built to meet PA requirements.

The difference in employment vs M113 being - the IFV can provide armed support to the MBTs and dismounted infantry from a distance against ground & low-altitude aerial threats.

Regarding the suggested usage of 8x8 wheeled APCs on the western borders, IMO, there is no substitute to securing the hills along the roads and robust road opening party (ROP) measures. Lakhs of FC/Army/other troops stationed on the western borders means:

• MRAP/APC for all troops not possible.
• The limited no. of MRAP/APC vehicles will be reserved for ROP and patrolling duties.

For road opening, wouldn't wheeled 8x8 be superior and cheaper? Tracked vehicles aren't really built for roads. Are far more complex, prone to breakdowns and damages the roads themselves. Additionally, often need to be trailered which means you now need giant trailers to carry them from point to point. See what happened to Turkish trailers when artillery struck.

Wheeled vehicles also cost a ton less and are far cheaper and easier to operate.

 

[Gryphon]

For road opening, wouldn't wheeled 8x8 be superior and cheaper? Tracked vehicles aren't really built for roads. Are far more complex, prone to breakdowns and damages the roads themselves. Additionally, often need to be trailered which means you now need giant trailers to carry them from point to point. See what happened to Turkish trailers when artillery struck.

Wheeled vehicles also cost a ton less and are far cheaper and easier to operate.

4×4 MRAPs for the west, 8×8 IFVs for the east - all good !!

 

[Armchair]

4×4 MRAPs for the west, 8×8 IFVs for the east - all good !!

It's still up in the air as no Vipers or 8x8 IFVs have been inducted yet. Let's see if something can be. Air support would have really helped this move as combined arms without air support is not even half as effective.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

PA 10-12 le gi 23 march parade me display kare gi. Thore afsar paise kha le gey.
Baki the common sipahi will still die in Toyota pick ups.

Modern day warfare is all about Mobility,Availability and Economy. Our policy makers are also cognizant of these new doctrines, and are adapting to wheeled platforms for various tasks. The employment of wheeled air defences and self propelled artillery systems suggests that we are adapting to these new concepts beyond the legacy of tracked vehicles. The Indians are not far behind us either...
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...-for-pakistan-border/articleshow/72389019.cms
The news in the defence circles is widespread of Pakistan acquiring the Chinese VN-1 wheeled APC in good numbers(not confirmed officially yet). These eight wheeled APCs are very Versatile,Economical and easily Available at a good price. A transfer of technology can also be a good option, if we are getting them in good numbers!!. HIT which is also making/testing Hamza 6 wheeled IFV, can benefit from any future transfer of technology.

VN-1 AND ITS VARIANTS
1)With 105mm assault gun

2)With Red Arrow 10 ATGM

3)With 40mm auto cannon

4)With Unmanned Turret

5)With 30mm Shipunov 2A72

There are many other variants of VN-1 APC. Even our Marines can have a look at the excellent Amphibious performance of these vehicles.

Hopefully we will acquire them with a transfer of technology option and in big numbers.These very versatile platforms can be a huge boast for our offensive capabilities in a very economical way.

Why are they useless? Are there any technical analysis to reach this conclusion? This statement and “there are no funds” is habitually thrown around in this forum in knee jerk manner.

PDF afsaron ki purani bemari hai. Ohh funds nai hain. "Requirement nai hai". Feasibility nai hai. Pathetic excuses.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

We don't have the budget to get MRAPS that can only have capacity of 4-8 personnel to cater to FC balochistan.

Depending upon terrain, we should procure this for FC as this can carry 16 personnel. Not every area of Balochistan will be covered but it would be still better than buying an MRAP with capacity of 4-8 persons that would most probably have the same cost.

Russia has been using the same in syria.

View attachment 631392

https://www.army-technology.com/projects/kamaz-63969-typhoon-mrap-armoured-vehicle/

I posted about Russia and French Renault making their trucks into MRAPs(I dont know it might be in multimedia or some other forum it was years ago). Which would be much easier/cheaper for us.
Renault

Ukrainian Varta did same

Because PakArmy employs Hino, Nissan UD Diesel, Some old Vietnam era M35s and some old Unimog(I love those bad boys sadly we can't get em here in US*I digress*) trucks in huge numbers. So if someone can find a way to make kits that can help PA convert normal 6x6 trucks into MRAPs or make a 6x6 truck design that would help PA in bridging the gap and providing more troops with MRAPs in regulars in FC/Rangers as well. This would help cure the tin can problem in PA.

Make a 4x4 variant where the 6x6 can't go. Hamza family was a step in the right direction. But like most HIT projects it must have become victim of red tape or victim of lack of foresight of some fat Brigadier sahb, jiz ki poori service life ka yahi nichoor nikla "koi baat nai R&D funds khao, Defence me ghar banao, higher ups ko mein colorful pwerpoints se khush kar lu ga, baki tank shank hum China se le lain ge".

IDEAS after IDEAS I've seen HIT make pathetic stalled progress. Once they only revealed face lifted Muhafiz II(this time with english name) and face lifted Talha which only slightly improves upon the last one(M113 design I think they also gave this one an english name too). English names are not bad lekin product bhi to koi achi bnao. Then in the second IDEAS I saw they only managed to make an RWS and we jumped up and down for them.

After DECADES they managed to make the Dragoon which is 4x4 and houses a small number of troops when the requirement was/should have been of an 8x8 or 6x6 from the outset. POF also seems to be mired in same red tape and lack of vision. But POF seems to make some money from sale of ammo, other various accessories and small amounts of arms exports. They could make billions in US market alone if they manage to diversify and sell decents products to HillBilly doomsday preppers.

Both POF and HIT seem to be bogged down due to old machinery/tools, old tech, people incharge who do not have good technical experience like AirForce guys, people who's mindset have not been changed post Zarb e Azb. Most of the time HIT and POF projects are headed by some overweight dude who knows he won't be promoted to Maj Gen and is simply biding his time.

How many of PDFers on here remember the pathetic copy of Israeli Wildcat MRAP?? Embarrassment was SO CLEARLY visible on Gen Raheel's face that day and he wasn't the easily embarrassed type.

Here's a pic for reference:

AirForce industries like GIDS, Shibli(they also make ground troop optics) and PAC are doing a far better job of streamlining their supply chain, have a decent line of products and are bringing forex into Pakistan.

Phew rant over. Ab tum log kaho ge paise nai hain. Bhai Pakistan se zyada gaye guzre mulk apni chezain bna rhe hain. A lot of the times what they make, they don't need in huge numbers. But they sell it to the world and make money. Above all they make it for their own nation, their own people. Gora asmaan se nai utra. Hum bhi kar sakte hain. We only need to cull the herd and bring better people in. Let the fat Brigadier sahb make his dha property somewhere else.

BTW
I will reiterate.
Hamza was/is a great option. But isntead of giving it a chance of proving itself and ironing out some of the kinks in the design, giving rise to a capable machine. They did what they always do. Buy from Cheen(que the usual Himalya se unchi Samdron se gehri BS)

 

[Dil_Pakistan]

They should go for this. The money remains in Pakistan. People get employed and paid. Local industry earns and develops. The product looks promising.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1260605411150958592

 

[Zulfiqar]

I posted about Russia and French Renault making their trucks into MRAPs(I dont know it might be in multimedia or some other forum it was years ago). Which would be much easier/cheaper for us.
Renault
View attachment 632120

Ukrainian Varta did same
View attachment 632121

Because PakArmy employs Hino, Nissan UD Diesel, Some old Vietnam era M35s and some old Unimog(I love those bad boys sadly we can't get em here in US*I digress*) trucks in huge numbers. So if someone can find a way to make kits that can help PA convert normal 6x6 trucks into MRAPs or make a 6x6 truck design that would help PA in bridging the gap and providing more troops with MRAPs in regulars in FC/Rangers as well. This would help cure the tin can problem in PA.

Make a 4x4 variant where the 6x6 can't go. Hamza family was a step in the right direction. But like most HIT projects it must have become victim of red tape or victim of lack of foresight of some fat Brigadier sahb, jiz ki poori service life ka yahi nichoor nikla "koi baat nai R&D funds khao, Defence me ghar banao, higher ups ko mein colorful pwerpoints se khush kar lu ga, baki tank shank hum China se le lain ge".

IDEAS after IDEAS I've seen HIT make pathetic stalled progress. Once they only revealed face lifted Muhafiz II(this time with english name) and face lifted Talha which only slightly improves upon the last one(M113 design I think they also gave this one an english name too). English names are not bad lekin product bhi to koi achi bnao. Then in the second IDEAS I saw they only managed to make an RWS and we jumped up and down for them.

After DECADES they managed to make the Dragoon which is 4x4 and houses a small number of troops when the requirement was/should have been of an 8x8 or 6x6 from the outset. POF also seems to be mired in same red tape and lack of vision. But POF seems to make some money from sale of ammo, other various accessories and small amounts of arms exports. They could make billions in US market alone if they manage to diversify and sell decents products to HillBilly doomsday preppers.

Both POF and HIT seem to be bogged down due to old machinery/tools, old tech, people incharge who do not have good technical experience like AirForce guys, people who's mindset have not been changed post Zarb e Azb. Most of the time HIT and POF projects are headed by some overweight dude who knows he won't be promoted to Maj Gen and is simply biding his time.

How many of PDFers on here remember the pathetic copy of Israeli Wildcat MRAP?? Embarrassment was SO CLEARLY visible on Gen Raheel's face that day and he wasn't the easily embarrassed type.

Here's a pic for reference:
View attachment 632119

AirForce industries like GIDS, Shibli(they also make ground troop optics) and PAC are doing a far better job of streamlining their supply chain, have a decent line of products and are bringing forex into Pakistan.

Phew rant over. Ab tum log kaho ge paise nai hain. Bhai Pakistan se zyada gaye guzre mulk apni chezain bna rhe hain. A lot of the times what they make, they don't need in huge numbers. But they sell it to the world and make money. Above all they make it for their own nation, their own people. Gora asmaan se nai utra. Hum bhi kar sakte hain. We only need to cull the herd and bring better people in. Let the fat Brigadier sahb make his dha property somewhere else.

BTW
I will reiterate.
Hamza was/is a great option. But isntead of giving it a chance of proving itself and ironing out some of the kinks in the design, giving rise to a capable machine. They did what they always do. Buy from Cheen(que the usual Himalya se unchi Samdron se gehri BS)

I would also love for the local govt and pvt sector to join hands for such projects. However, considering what I have seen here w.r.t timeline to get things done. It is better to first buy off the shelf new european/SA/Turkish or second hand ex Iraq/AFG US MRAPs to get the ball rolling for FC. Otherwise we would be stuck with a lot of casualties and a cheap wild cat copy as a prototype in the end again ( I also saw the video of the vehicle, it was ridiculous).

Later on we can then move for Hino/Other truck conversion and further to full scale MRAP.

 

[PakFactor]

They should go for this. The money remains in Pakistan. People get employed and paid. Local industry earns and develops. The product looks promising.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1260605411150958592

Don't understand if we have this, why aren't we investing more into this product and army buy? The export potential will allow more expansion and R&D into the country.

@PanzerKiel

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Phir Defence me property nai bne gi na. Samjha kro.

They should go for this. The money remains in Pakistan. People get employed and paid. Local industry earns and develops. The product looks promising.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1260605411150958592