Vietnam vs India: dictatarship wins over democracy

[Aepsilons]

,

They would have to add about 1,500 dollars in nominal GDP per capita every year, so there is every reason it cannot achieve developed status in 2 decades.

BTW, I'm talking real development, not Caribbean developed.

I believe they can do it. Also I will say that Vietnamese society is unique , it has a very strong East Asian influence , even the people there look and act similar to other East Asian Race (Japanese, Chinese, Korean). Nothern Vietnam especially -- it is almost impossible to differentiate them. Further to the south tho, you can see some have more admixtures of Khmer , Cham beauty.

The supermarket that I go to is owned by a Vietnamese Family and everything in the store is identical to Chinese owned markets; the feng shui order, the workers, cleanliness. Just that they speak a different language.

What do you think @Viet, @BoQ77 , @dichoi , @Rent ?

 

[Water Car Engineer]

India has proved that heavy socialist ideas and a command economy doesnt work. Still need reforms in different areas, but those years before 1990s were lost because India stuck with those ideas.

 

[mike2000]

you are wrong. when Vietnam opened up, its GDP per capita was 1/3 of India

Nope im not really, i never said Vietnam was ahead of India in GDP per capital back then. I said Vietnam was ahead of India back then in basic living standards indicators like literacy,education,life expectancy, access to welfare facilities/power/nutrition etc. Vietnam was already ahead of India back then in this basics sectors same as China even though both China and Vietnam might have had a lower GDP per capital than India.

And we do see how the Chinese talk to Vietnamese and Filipinos.

You don't have a good record there.

In any case, we wish nothing but the best of progress for Vietnam.

True talk bro. Dont know why he is trying to claim morality over this issue. Chinese members on here also make similar negative/offensive remarks about Vietnam and philippines. So nobody is a sane on here.lol

 

[Genesis]

,


I believe they can do it. Also I will say that Vietnamese society is unique , it has a very strong East Asian influence , even the people there look and act similar to other East Asian Race (Japanese, Chinese, Korean). Nothern Vietnam especially -- it is almost impossible to differentiate them. Further to the south tho, you can see some have more admixtures of Khmer , Cham beauty.

The supermarket that I go to is owned by a Vietnamese Family and everything in the store is identical to Chinese owned markets; the feng shui order, the workers, cleanliness. Just that they speak a different language.

What do you think @Viet, @BoQ77 , @dichoi , @Rent ?

So essentially, you are saying you KNOW they can't do it. If they could and you know it, even a little bit, you wouldn't have used the word believe.

Question, have you worked in an actual office environment where things were actually on the line? That attitude I'm hoping it's fake, cause I don't know about others, but I know I pray my co-workers crash and burn everyday I wake up and I can only assume they wish the same beneath all our smiles.

True talk bro. Dont know why he is trying to claim morality over this issue. Chinese members on here also make similar negative/offensive remarks about Vietnam and philippines. So nobody is a sane on here.lol

I hate morality, the only reason law is obeyed, is because if you don't a big dude is coming with a gun and he's gonna turn that SOB side ways and stick it straight up where the sun don't shine.

I like the American attitude, you don't have to like me, but you will respect me, and if you don't, I'll beat you until you either do or die.

 

[Aepsilons]

you are wrong. when Vietnam opened up, its GDP per capita was 1/3 of India




you should have a benchmark for comparison

in 1949, China and India have nearly the same GDP per capita, but at that time, China is far far behind the west
in 1989, Vietnam's GDP per capita is about 1/3 of India

all of these nations are far far behind the west, so it is not so comparable between China and the west
but it is comparable between China and India, vietnam and India

What you say is true, but also it is important for us to keep in mind that there are over 1.2 billion Indians, thus it will naturally take more work to develop the country. Despite that, Indian development is visible , tangible, and recorded. I believe that India is progressing and it is important for us to recognize the obstacles that they have, which they are slowly jumping through. Each nation have different obstacles, challenges.

So essentially, you are saying you KNOW they can't do it. If they could and you know it, even a little bit, you wouldn't have used the word believe.

Nothing in life is guaranteed, there are assymetric factors that can hit us when we don't expect it; a curve ball so to say. That in mind, I believe that the Vietnamese can develop even further, that their nation will be able to develop their infrastructure, increase their standard of living, increase job development, increase their educational system, health system, all demographic factors that we all observe.

Vietnam is also smaller than say China or India and thus it won't take long for collective / comprehensive development. Whereas it will take much longer for say India or China simply basedo n the population level.

I've personally met Vietnamese and have some that are students of mine, as well as colleagues at work. They have strong work ethic that is at the same level as Northeast Asians (Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Taiwanese) -- they don't talk much, they work a lot. The Confucian constants of: 儉 , 讓, 廉

Vietnam has a strong collective character; they are quite unitarian, and compared to their neighbors in the west and south. That's my personal observation.

Question, have you worked in an actual office environment where things were actually on the line? That attitude I'm hoping it's fake, cause I don't know about others, but I know I pray my co-workers crash and burn everyday I wake up and I can only assume they wish the same beneath all our smiles.

I work in academia. I'm a full time university instructor and aside from my teaching duties (i teach 3 courses this semester), I also work in research -- and due to the nature of my work environment, i depend on colleagues (vice versa) and work as a team to complete a common goal. I do not wish my colleagues to "crash and burn", rather, I wish that they succeed in their goals, as I would hope they wish the same for me. And if issues arise at work, i make sure to address it and rectify any disagreements quickly.

 

[Genesis]

Nothing in life is guaranteed, there are assymetric factors that can hit us when we don't expect it; a curve ball so to say. That in mind, I believe that the Vietnamese can develop even further, that their nation will be able to develop their infrastructure, increase their standard of living, increase job development, increase their educational system, health system, all demographic factors that we all observe.

Vietnam is also smaller than say China or India and thus it won't take long for collective / comprehensive development. Whereas it will take much longer for say India or China simply basedo n the population level.

I've personally met Vietnamese and have some that are students of mine, as well as colleagues at work. They have strong work ethic that is at the same level as Northeast Asians (Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Taiwanese) -- they don't talk much, they work a lot. The Confucian constants of: 儉 , 讓, 廉

Vietnam has a strong collective character; they are quite unitarian, and compared to their neighbors in the west and south. That's my personal observation.

Sure, nothing is guaranteed, except that they won't be really developed by 2035. Whether Vietnam is developed or not is not inconsequential to me, it be better if they did, but that's not going to happen is it, we all wish for things, but in the end, Kate Upton is dating a washed up pitcher from murder city USA.

I work in academia. I'm a full time university instructor and aside from my teaching duties (i teach 3 courses this semester), I also work in research -- and due to the nature of my work environment, i depend on colleagues (vice versa) and work as a team to complete a common goal. I do not wish my colleagues to "crash and burn", rather, I wish that they succeed in their goals, as I would hope they wish the same for me. And if issues arise at work, i make sure to address it and rectify any disagreements quickly.

Well, so we come from different worlds. I guess that's why a PHD has never appealed to me, that and I'm too stupid to do it.

Tell you the truth the one thing I can't stand is this hugs and kisses culture, but that's just me. This has something to do with the way my life went up to this point, but I guess I just never really liked it much in the beginning.

 

[desimorty]

This is the most bullshite thread i've ever come across.
1. Democracy does not grantee economic progress. It only tries to grantee, debates, representation and human development and freedom! ex, S Korea is a democratic republic until 10 years ago was a developing nation. Left NK far behind. Sri Lanka, is democracy that does far better than India in the human development index.
2. Dictatorships do no guarantee economic progress, ie N Korea.
The reason why China, Vietnam, Taiwan, HK, Korea, Japan are ahead is because Japan and America invested in ASEAN. They were closer to the business at the time!
Pakistan was once AHEAD of India in development, and human index. Pakistan had more rail roads, roads, schools per captia than India. So why did India surge ahead? Well because it attracted investment.
Investment, businesses are the reason for higher GDP per captia and development, not roads, or phone lines. First is investment, everthing else comes latter.
For instance, North Korea, has more roads and better infastructure than India and Vietnam. Why is it poor? Investment isn't there nore are there any businesses.
And above all, India has a democracy because it wanted such a system, and it is or was more socialist than China! The people wanted and still have socialism ie Fabians Socialism.
So stop comparing.

 

[esolve]

This is the most bullshite thread i've ever come across.
1. Democracy does not grantee economic progress. It only tries to grantee, debates, representation and human development and freedom! ex, S Korea is a democratic republic until 10 years ago was a developing nation. Left NK far behind. Sri Lanka, is democracy that does far better than India in the human development index.
2. Dictatorships do no guarantee economic progress, ie N Korea.
The reason why China, Vietnam, Taiwan, HK, Korea, Japan are ahead is because Japan and America invested in ASEAN. They were closer to the business at the time!
Pakistan was once AHEAD of India in development, and human index. Pakistan had more rail roads, roads, schools per captia than India. So why did India surge ahead? Well because it attracted investment.
Investment, businesses are the reason for higher GDP per captia and development, not roads, or phone lines. First is investment, everthing else comes latter.
For instance, North Korea, has more roads and better infastructure than India and Vietnam. Why is it poor? Investment isn't there nore are there any businesses.
And above all, India has a democracy because it wanted such a system, and it is or was more socialist than China! The people wanted and still have socialism ie Fabians Socialism.
So stop comparing.

India is not more socialist than China.

 

[desimorty]

India is not more socialist than China.

lol, which market today, has less government regulations, and a more open economy to FDI? Ans. China.
India is socialist. Govt, of India heavily subsidises fuel, oil, electricity, grain, etc... India was and still is more socialist than China, Just because there is mass marriages via the state in China doesn't make them socialist. Infact most would agree, China is communist by name.

 

[BoQ77]

They would have to add about 1,500 dollars in nominal GDP per capita every year, so there is every reason it cannot achieve developed status in 2 decades.

BTW, I'm talking real development, not Caribbean developed.

lol, have you seen how you guys talk to Pakistani members, and the difference in per capita is negligible at best.

GDP just express the production and service domestically. It's just the statistic after all.
For same purpose, I prefer GNP over GDP, especially when Vietnam joined much to Asean community.
GDP is nearly nothing ( I mentioned everyone when using this ),
for example, annual GDP of Vietnam about hundred billion dollars.

Let's see about recent investment of Samsung to turn Vietnam as their manufacture hubs, those push Vietnam GDP increasing at least 35 billion in one or two years. Clearly those made GDP increase so much.
35 billion itself could add nearly 400$ to nominal GDP per capita. But it's nearly meaningless.

I could say, that's also the "real" development of some countries.

@Nihonjin1051 : agreed with you.

the current status of Vietnam is just like an compressed spring, it could achieve the full length after a flash.

So for the GDP, it could reach at least 6,000 - 7,000$ per capita with less effort, but much harder after that to escape the medium income trap.

And yes, we need more democracy, in order to reduce corruption and well manage a "big country", I talking about a 13th ranked population. It's not like a small population of Brunei, Singapore ...

And yes, we could surpass India in GDP aspect because of scale of population, but to reach the same leverage of development, we need more experience, time and of course money to R&D.

I wait for the TPP and the FTA Vietnam-EU result as a push. It's not all.

The development must come from inside. More democracy is also a development achievement.

 

[esolve]

lol, which market today, has less government regulations, and a more open economy to FDI? Ans. China.
India is socialist. Govt, of India heavily subsidises fuel, oil, electricity, grain, etc... India was and still is more socialist than China, Just because there is mass marriages via the state in China doesn't make them socialist. Infact most would agree, China is communist by name.

lol, Country Rankings: World & Global Economy Rankings on Economic Freedom

India ranks higher in economic freedom than China
China can attract FDI because its performance is too excellent.

Govt, of China heavily subsidises fuel, oil, electricity, grain, etc...
Chinese have better welfare than India

 

[Aepsilons]

GDP just express the production and service domestically. It's just the statistic after all.
For same purpose, I prefer GNP over GDP, especially when Vietnam joined much to Asean community.
GDP is nearly nothing ( I mentioned everyone when using this ),
for example, annual GDP of Vietnam about hundred billion dollars.

Let's see about recent investment of Samsung to turn Vietnam as their manufacture hubs, those push Vietnam GDP increasing at least 35 billion in one or two years. Clearly those made GDP increase so much.
35 billion itself could add nearly 400$ to nominal GDP per capita. But it's nearly meaningless.

I could say, that's also the "real" development of some countries.

@Nihonjin1051 : agreed with you.

the current status of Vietnam is just like an compressed spring, it could achieve the full length after a flash.

So for the GDP, it could reach at least 6,000 - 7,000$ per capita with less effort, but much harder after that to escape the medium income trap.

And yes, we need more democracy, in order to reduce corruption and well manage a "big country", I talking about a 13th ranked population. It's not like a small population of Brunei, Singapore ...

And yes, we could surpass India in GDP aspect because of scale of population, but to reach the same leverage of development, we need more experience, time and of course money to R&D.

I wait for the TPP and the FTA Vietnam-EU result as a push. It's not all.

The development must come from inside. More democracy is also a development achievement.

@BoQ77 ,

It is in my prediction that in a decade's time, Vietnam can achieve a GDP per capital of $7k - $10k per annum. Everything in Vietnam right now points towards positive growth, sustained at that. In 2 decade's time, there is no reason why her GDP per capita cannot be $20k+ per annum.

 

[desimorty]

lol, Country Rankings: World & Global Economy Rankings on Economic Freedom

India ranks higher in economic freedom than China
China can attract FDI because its performance is too excellent.

Govt, of China heavily subsidises fuel, oil, electricity, grain, etc...
Chinese have better welfare than India

ha hahaha,
Seriously, thats because the state owns a lot of what is known as private corporations in China. However, the reality is far from. As investers, whats the biggest hurdle in investing in India vs China, and they;ll tell you that the GOI requires too much redtape, and China is half to 1/4 the time to start business. And 'performance is too excellent?' sounds absurd.
India has more welfware programs, and more subsides.
How many toll booths on China's roads? wanna answer that? China is communist. Freedom of market, walmarts, KFC, Apple stores are not socialist behaviours. Also welfare programs in India are far more epic on scale, they subsidise everything, including Pharma medicine which is why Indian medicines are in Africa. Compare the oil price at the pump in India to China, and you'll notice the price is lower in India. I doubt China subsidises, grain or rice, since it produces so much, infact the only things the CCP subsides is raw materials, ie rare earth minerals.
Infact read the debates,

The continued existence of a strong state sector does not make China socialist. In the past, many capitalist countries have had a significant sector of state-owned enterprises. Most of these have been privatised since the rise of neoliberalism. (Australian examples include the Commonwealth Bank, Telstra, Qantas.)

China today: socialist or capitalist? | Links International Journal of Socialist Renewal

Hart-Landsberg and Burkett present an insightful analysis of the internal and external contradictions of Chinese capitalism. They convincingly argue that the Chinese experiment of market socialism has led to nothing less than full-fledged capitalism exactly as classical Marxist theory would have predicted. China and Socialism will prove to be one of the most important contributions to the Marxist literature on contemporary China.

Minqi Li, York University, Toronto
India was and largely is more socialist. Its what the people, wanted. More handouts from the government as envisioned in Fabians Socialism. Now if you wanna still argue, please read on India's orginal economy structure before 1991. Then continue.

 

[esolve]

ha hahaha,
Seriously, thats because the state owns a lot of what is known as private corporations in China. However, the reality is far from. As investers, whats the biggest hurdle in investing in India vs China, and they;ll tell you that the GOI requires too much redtape, and China is half to 1/4 the time to start business. And 'performance is too excellent?' sounds absurd.

It only means India has a lot of policy barriers and corruption. It doesn't mean India is socialist.
Socialism means welfare and government planning.

India has more welfware programs, and more subsides.
How many toll booths on China's roads? wanna answer that? China is communist. Freedom of market, walmarts, KFC, Apple stores are not socialist behaviours. Also welfare programs in India are far more epic on scale, they subsidise everything, including Pharma medicine which is why Indian medicines are in Africa. Compare the oil price at the pump in India to China, and you'll notice the price is lower in India. I doubt China subsidises, grain or rice, since it produces so much, infact the only things the CCP subsides is raw materials, ie rare earth minerals.
Infact read the debates,

Minqi Li, York University, Toronto
India was and largely is more socialist. Its what the people, wanted. More handouts from the government as envisioned in Fabians Socialism. Now if you wanna still argue, please read on India's orginal economy structure before 1991. Then continue.

I never said "China is not capitalist"
I just tell you that China is more socialist than India.

the petrol and electricity price are similar in both nations

Bloomberg Gas Price Ranking
Bloomberg Gas Price Ranking
Average electricity prices around the world: $/kWh | shrinkthatfootprint.com

Indian medicine is cheaper because it doesn't pay much patent fees to the west, while China has to protect the IP of western pharmacy companies due to World trade rules.


China provides more benefits and welfare to its nationals.
More than 95% of Chinese nationals have medical insurance, because it is cheap and many poor ppl even don't have to pay for it.
about 80 million poorest Chinese ppl receives government allowances, about 70 dollars per month per person on average, these ppl also get free or cheap water/electricty/TV or even Internet services.

government also provides free/cheap public housing services to citizens.

on festivals, government officials also need to provide cash or gifts to poorest families in its local administrative region.

 

[desimorty]

Still cheaper in India. Strange isn't it given CCP has more money than India. At the pump its pretty cheap, considering most Indians drive 2 wheelers.

Indian medicine is cheaper because it doesn't pay much patent fees to the west, while China has to protect the IP of western pharmacy companies due to World trade rules.

The one time China cares about IP is when it comes to medicine? So yea, they wanna make a profit more so than Indian pharmas which are let loose to reduce the price of meds.
And thank you.. Your point is is still not concrete to prove China is communist.
Do you know what states were are communist? USSR, NK, Cuba. And what do all these states have in common? FDI was limited. Business is limited. Like it was in India.
China is capitalist with state control of natural resources. The state is powerful more so than in India, but communism is not what Chinese businesses are. They are capitalist that they would sell milk that isn't milk to make a profit.