Vietnam visit: Anti-American exhibits abound, but people are friendly

[gambit]

plz refrain from digressing, again you only speak for yourself not south Vietnamese people. majority vietnamnese bear grudge against US for its role in vietnam war.

And by what authority here do you claim to speak for the Vietnamese people today? Because you happened to watch some propaganda films and exhibits?

Some chinese might regret to have helped vietnam which became of enemy of china later. but few people doubt the right course we help vietnamese people seek a independent coutry.

But both Vietnams were independent? Please show everyone historical evidences to the contrary. If NVN had to 'liberate' SVN, care to explain liberation from what? For so often I asked this question of you Chinese boys, not a one dared to answer.

 

[Obambam]

Of course it was a flawed understanding. The speculation was between Ho Chi Minh and Emperor Bao Dai, the latter everyone do not want. That comparison was the source for that %80 figure for Ho. But the uncomfortable truth here is that if Ho was so popular, then why did not the South rose against the Diem government during the 1968 Tet Offensive?

http://rationalrevolution.net/war/american_involvement_in_vietnam.htm

"In 1967 Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. gave a speech called "Beyond Vietnam", in which he stated:

"They must see Americans as strange liberators. The Vietnamese people proclaimed their own independence -- in 1945 -- after a combined French and Japanese occupation and before the communist revolution in China. They were led by Ho Chi Minh. Even though they quoted the American Declaration of Independence in their own document of freedom, we refused to recognize them. Instead, we decided to support France in its reconquest of her former colony. Our government felt then that the Vietnamese people were not ready for independence, and we again fell victim to the deadly Western arrogance that has poisoned the international atmosphere for so long. With that tragic decision we rejected a revolutionary government seeking self-determination and a government that had been established not by China -- for whom the Vietnamese have no great love -- but by clearly indigenous forces that included some communists. For the peasants this new government meant real land reform, one of the most important needs in their lives."

"In 1950 the French gave up their effort to maintain direct control over Vietnam and transferred power to Bao Dai. The US recognized Bao Dai, but the Vietnamese people did not; he was generally a puppet of the French.

"In 1954 President Eisenhower wrote:

"I have never talked or corresponded with a person knowledgeable in Indochinese affairs who did not agree that had elections been held at the time of the fighting, possibly 80 percent of the population would have voted for Communist Ho Chi Minh as their leader rather then Chief of State Bao Dai."

I guess that uncomfortable truth also explained why the North didn't turn in Ho Chi Minh and just give up the fight? The fight then went on for 20 years until the Americans gave up.

Colonized? Nice but a feeble attempt. I could say the same thing that North Viet Nam asked to be colonized by China.

Not really as China never intended to stay and govern Vietnam but the French did? Clearly not feeble at all.

Fine...But no matter how sham the democracy was in South Viet Nam, the fact that the people resisted communism. But we know that the will of the people is irrelevant for communists anyway. Still...No matter how odious the South Vietnamese government, China had no right to meddle and encourage a war.

Democracy is just a regime with a surface that is polished by eloguent speakers. What they offer isn't always the best countries and its people. Communism is slightly different as they offer more practicallity. You can clearly see for yourself how a modernized communist regime is benefiting China and Vietnam. Compare that with the west who is nothing but just old fashioned fear and war mongers who is having trouble keeping up with the time. Look at the people who is suffering in the middle east, who gave them the rights to meddle there? and take a look at their economies and growth rates? Now tell me who is better?

 

[tanlixiang28776]

Democracy is better. The end. All commies die.

 

[below_freezing]

Fall of Saigon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The rapidity with which the South Vietnamese position collapsed in 1975 was surprising to most American and South Vietnamese observers, and probably to the North Vietnamese and their allies as well. For instance, a memo prepared by the CIA and Army Intelligence and published on 5 March indicated that South Vietnam could hold through the current dry season—i.e. at least until 1976.[2] These predictions proved to be grievously in error. Even as that memo was being released, General Dung was preparing a major offensive in the Central Highlands of Vietnam, which began on 10 March and led to the capture of Buon Me Thuot. The ARVN began a disorderly and costly retreat, hoping to redeploy its forces and hold the southern part of South Vietnam, perhaps an enclave south of the 13th parallel.[3]

Supported by artillery and armor, the North Vietnamese continued to march towards Saigon, capturing the major cities of northern South Vietnam at the end of March—Huế on the 25th and Da Nang on the 28th. Along the way, disorderly South Vietnamese retreats and the flight of refugees—there were more than 300,000 in Da Nang[4]—damaged South Vietnamese prospects for a turnaround. After the loss of Da Nang, those prospects had already been dismissed as nonexistent by American Central Intelligence Agency officers in Vietnam, who believed nothing short of B-52 strikes against Hanoi could possibly stop the North Vietnamese.[5]

By 8 April, the North Vietnamese Politburo, which in March had recommended caution to Dung, cabled him to demand "unremitting vigor in the attack all the way to the heart of Saigon."[6] On 14 April, they renamed the campaign the "Ho Chi Minh campaign," after revolutionary leader Ho Chi Minh, in the hopes of wrapping it up before his birthday on 19 May.[7] Meanwhile, South Vietnam failed to garner any significant increase in military aid from the United States, snuffing President Nguyen Van Thieu's hopes for renewed American support.

On 9 April PAVN forces reached Xuan Loc, the last line of defense before Saigon, where the ARVN 18th Division made a last stand and held the city through fierce fighting for several days. The PAVN finally overran Xuan Loc on 20 April and on 21 April President Thiệu resigned in a tearful televised announcement in which he denounced the United States for failing to come to the aid of the South.[8] The North Vietnamese front line was now just 26 miles (42 km) from downtown Saigon.[9] The victory at Xuan Loc, which had drawn many South Vietnamese troops away from the Mekong Delta area,[9] opened the way for PAVN to encircle Saigon, and they soon did so, moving 100,000 troops in position around the city by 27 April. With the ARVN having many fewer defenders, the fate of the city was effectively sealed.

 

[below_freezing]

Agent Orange - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Agent Orange is the code name for one of the herbicides and defoliants used by the U.S. military as part of its herbicidal warfare program, Operation Ranch Hand, during the Vietnam War from 1961 to 1971.

A 50:50 mixture of 2,4,5-T and 2,4-D, it was manufactured for the U.S. Department of Defense primarily by Monsanto Corporation and Dow Chemical. The 2,4,5-T used to produce Agent Orange was later discovered to be contaminated with 2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzodioxin, an extremely toxic dioxin compound. It was given its name from the color of the orange-striped 55 US gallon (200 L) barrels in which it was shipped, and was by far the most widely used of the so-called "Rainbow Herbicides".[1]

During the Vietnam War, between 1962 and 1971, the United States military sprayed 20,000,000 US gallons (80,000,000 L) of chemical herbicides and defoliants in Vietnam, eastern Laos and parts of Cambodia, as part of Operation Ranch Hand.[2] The program's goal was to defoliate forested and rural land, depriving guerrillas of cover; another goal was to induce forced draft urbanization, destroying the ability of peasants to support themselves in the countryside, and forcing them to flee to the U.S. dominated cities, thus depriving the guerrillas of their rural support base and food supply.[3][4]

Children in the areas where Agent Orange was used have been affected and have multiple health problems including cleft palate, mental disabilities, hernias, and extra fingers and toes.[37] In the 1970s, high levels of dioxin were found in the breast milk of South Vietnamese women, and in the blood of U.S. soldiers who had served in Vietnam.[38] The most affected zones are the mountainous area along Truong Son (Long Mountains) and the border between Vietnam and Cambodia. The affected residents are living in sub-standard conditions with many genetic diseases.[39]

 

[gambit]

The American involvement in Vietnam

"In 1967 Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. gave a speech called "Beyond Vietnam", in which he stated:

"They must see Americans as strange liberators. The Vietnamese people proclaimed their own independence -- in 1945 -- after a combined French and Japanese occupation and before the communist revolution in China. They were led by Ho Chi Minh. Even though they quoted the American Declaration of Independence in their own document of freedom, we refused to recognize them. Instead, we decided to support France in its reconquest of her former colony. Our government felt then that the Vietnamese people were not ready for independence, and we again fell victim to the deadly Western arrogance that has poisoned the international atmosphere for so long. With that tragic decision we rejected a revolutionary government seeking self-determination and a government that had been established not by China -- for whom the Vietnamese have no great love -- but by clearly indigenous forces that included some communists. For the peasants this new government meant real land reform, one of the most important needs in their lives."

"In 1950 the French gave up their effort to maintain direct control over Vietnam and transferred power to Bao Dai. The US recognized Bao Dai, but the Vietnamese people did not; he was generally a puppet of the French.

"In 1954 President Eisenhower wrote:

"I have never talked or corresponded with a person knowledgeable in Indochinese affairs who did not agree that had elections been held at the time of the fighting, possibly 80 percent of the population would have voted for Communist Ho Chi Minh as their leader rather then Chief of State Bao Dai."

We know that King was wrong about the highlighted, do we?

I guess that uncomfortable truth also explained why the North didn't turn in Ho Chi Minh and just give up the fight? The fight then went on for 20 years until the Americans gave up.

During the war, the refugee flow was consistently North-South. The North Vietnamese may not have been able to 'turn' on Ho but by fleeing southward, the refugees spoke loud enough of their opinions.

Not really as China never intended to stay and govern Vietnam but the French did? Clearly not feeble at all.

The implication here is that South Vietnam turned to America and therefore the South Vietnamese was seeking American colonialism. Not talking about France by this time.

Democracy is just a regime with a surface that is polished by eloguent speakers. What they offer isn't always the best countries and its people. Communism is slightly different as they offer more practicallity. You can clearly see for yourself how a modernized communist regime is benefitting China and Vietnam. Compare that with the west who is nothing but just old fashioned fear and war mongers who is having trouble keeping up with the time. Look at the people who is suffering in the middle east, who gave them the rights to meddle there? and take a look at their economies and growth rates? Now tell me who is better?

A 'modernized' version of communism? If communism was so good, why is there a need to 'modernized' it? The simple microwave oven that we take for granted today came from which camp? Same for the Internet? I see nothing here but more propaganda.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

You realize Democracy needed a lot of modernizing too right. Otherwise we would be living in a male white dominated America with slavery still going on.

 

[gambit]

You realize Democracy needed a lot of modernizing too right. Otherwise we would be living in a male white dominated America with slavery still going on.

Democracy by its nature of allowing competition and encouraging compromises is naturally evolutionary. Guess who collapsed?

 

[tanlixiang28776]

Democracy by its nature of allowing competition and encouraging compromises is naturally evolutionary. Guess who collapsed?

Communism in China has evolved or it would have collapsed as well.

 

[scuthan]

I said China is guilty of co-starting the Vietnam War. Since there were Chinese troop participation, as in manning air defense guns and even suspected Chinese pilots in air combat, that made China a belligerent in the war.

china was among scores of countries which helped north Vietnam, you feel to view china is a belligerent or not. but it was not china started the war.

Debatable at best.

they are soilders served the Afghanistani army. they should be treated as POW. your defending to US is understandale, but your point is ludricous.

That does not mean China cannot be an 'imperialist' like the charge so often mindlessly applied to US. But as far as the Vietnam War goes, North Viet Nam was China's puppet, no matter how much you Chinese boys wanted to deflect by calling South Viet Nam an American puppet.

Despite that both USSR and China backed Ho chimin in the war , they were enemies at that time. After war vietnam standed on USSR's side to contain China, would you mind telling me why North Vietnam was china's puppet rather than USSR's?

the argument that US is imperialist is valid as you can see that Japan, South Korea, Afghanstan, Iraq and etc are not politically, diplomatically, militarily independent as today's Vietnam and North Korea. it doesn't apply to china.

 

[Brotherhood]

That is fine. All I care is that you should enjoy the company of other Chinese racists. Your happiness is important to me in this regard.

Yeah, Chinese racist should never save those ungrateful species:

Bắt đầu từ nay, một chính sách mới về thuyền nhân Việt Nam đã được chấp hành tại Hồng Kông. Từ nay về sau, những thuyền nhân Việt Nam kiếm cách nhập cảnh Hồng Kông với thân phận những người di tản vì vấn đề kinh tế sẽ bị coi là những người nhập cảnh phi pháp. Là những người nhập cảnh phi pháp, họ sẽ không có chút khả năng nào để được đi định cư tại nước thứ ba, và họ sẽ bị giam cầm để chờ ngày giải về Việt Nam.

 

[gambit]

Communism in China has evolved or it would have collapsed as well.

But since applied communism as we have seen do not allowed for political competition, the communists consistently killed off anyone who disagreed with them, communism cannot evolved and if the country has to resort to adopting some elements of capitalism and some relaxation of political competition, it is no longer communism, hence it is a failure.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

But since applied communism as we have seen do not allowed for political competition, the communists consistently killed off anyone who disagreed with them, communism cannot evolved and if the country has to resort to adopting some elements of capitalism and some relaxation of political competition, it is no longer communism, hence it is a failure.

If you don't think of China as communist why do you keep calling us commies?

You can't have it both ways.

 

[Obambam]

Democracy is better. The end. All commies die.

Communism isn't so bad
It paved way for them to modernize and refine their regime to better adapt to modern times, just like what China did. I personally see Democracy and Communism as a game and both having its own set of rules. Both can be good or bad and neither is perfect. I like Democracy for its values in freedom and I like the way Communism fights away colonial power, curb corruption and its quick action and decision making. I do however dislike the fact that they both share common problems such as dark hidden agendas, corruption and manipulation. We just have to take those with a pinch of salt. Like I say, neither is perfect.

 

[Patriot]

It is absolutely disgusting that Author has no shame about what his country forces did in Vietnam.

Agent Orange is the code name for one of the herbicides and defoliants used by the U.S. military as part of its herbicidal warfare program, Operation Ranch Hand, during the Vietnam War from 1961 to 1971.According to Vietnamese Ministry of Foreign Affairs, 4.8 million Vietnamese people were exposed to herbicides, resulting in 400,000 people being killed or maimed, and 500,000 children born with birth defects.[11]

If this was done by some other country - US would probably label it Genocide and dedicate a day for this and make it a National Holiday.The hypocrisy is just astounding.This is probably one of the biggest crimes done in human history after Nazi's Genocide of Jews.