Vietnam Defence Forum

[William Hung]

Putin: Russia Supports China’s Stance on South China Sea
http://russia-insider.com/en/russia-supports-chinas-stance-south-china-sea/ri16285

HANGZHOU (Sputnik) – Russia supports China’s stance on the South China Sea court dispute and opposes any third-party interference, Russian President Vladimir Putin said Monday.

"Chairman Xi Jinping and I have developed very trusting, I would say friendly, relations. But he never – I want to emphasize this – never approached me requesting to somehow comment, somehow intervene in the matter," Putin told reporters.

"We of course have our own opinion on this matter. It is that, first of all, we do not interfere and we believe that any intervention of a non-regional power goes only to the detriment of settling these issues. The intervention of third-party non-regional powers, in my opinion, is harmful and counterproductive," he added.

On July 12, the Hague-based Permanent Court of Arbitration ruled that Beijing has no legal basis to claim historic rights to South China Sea resources and has violated the sovereign rights of the Philippines in the country's exclusive economic zone. The ruling came after Manila filed a case in January 2013 accusing Beijing of violating the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea.

"We stand in solidarity and support of China's position on this issue – not to recognize the decision of this court… This is not a political position, but purely legal. It lies in the fact that any arbitration proceedings should be initiated by the disputing parties, while the arbitration court should hear the arguments and positions of the disputing parties. As you know, China did not address the Hague arbitration and no one listened to its position there. How can you recognize these decisions as fair? We support China's position on this issue," Putin stressed.

Beijing’s territorial claims to the Spratly Islands in the South China Sea, which are believed to be rich in oil and gas reserves, run counter to those of the Philippines, Taiwan, Malaysia, Brunei and Vietnam.

This is too predictable, anyone with half sense could foresee this long time ago. I remember a long time ago some member Thao or something who tried to fight me because I said something like this and they couldn’t accept the new reality.


Note that this is not just a “neutral” stance like Russia always had, but it is now a stance that aligns with China and opposite to Vietnam’s own stance.

But he never – I want to emphasize this – never approached me requesting to somehow comment, somehow intervene in the matter," Putin told reporters.

It’s kind of funny how he made this pre-emptive statement...which kind of reveals what went on behind the scene and now he is feeling insecured about it...cos now he is no longer in the position of the “strongman” leader he used to paint himself to be.

My point is if there is any particular reason why the FREMM would be more desirable since it is a different class of ship. Of course I understand the value of having a loan, that's why I said, other than the loan.



Because I read in Wiki that the FREMM for France was 670 million Euros. Do you have a source for the 2 Italian FREMM frigates for that cost? Wiki has a price for them for 580 million Euros (each) and one for Morocco at 470 million Euros and they show the sources for all 3 prices. Your price looks too low for a European frigate of that class.



I know about that, that's why I said that it needs to be customised for Vietnam.

I didn’t bothered checking wiki because it can be outdated or unreliable. The latest Italian order is still fresh news you can google it. Its around $800 million, and this is only last year so inflation is taken accounted. Note that the cost of the earlier FREMM often quoted usually includes the development cost. You might also want to check the French-Greek or French-Eqypt FREMM negotiation to see how flexible the French are in terms of financial arrangement and customer requests.

 

[patu]

What I had read is that the tot issue was resolved. Yes, this is a rumor, but this is what the Russians think, somebody gave a copy of the missile to China according to them and they feel is Indonesia under chinese pressure. Even if the Russians were to have proof, they are not going to come out in public with this and make Indonesia lose face, but this is what they think. I had mentioned this one time to madokafc and she didn't say a word, that tells me that she probably knows something about it, but I'm not sure.

The problem of the c705 tot process was about the quantity of the c705 that used to be buy by Indonesian; we want less and chiness want more, that all!

 

[Silent Knight]

What is the reason?

I dont because of which reason?

Project 17A is still on the paper and not a single ship has been constructed yet. Its predecessor - Project 17 Shivalik - only has 3 ships in its class.

Vietnam tends to choose ship design that has been proven in reality, like at least 10 years of operation without major incident. The lesson from choosing unproven design (BPS-500 missile boat) has delayed several attempts to acquire new ship design (like KBO-2000 frigate). That's why we chose the 11661 Gepard instead of 20382 Tigr. The Gepard is older and less capable, but it has operated for years before the Tigr was born.

Another factor is cost. I read that the expected price for P-17A is about US$ 1,1 billion and that's for the Indian Navy, not foreign customer. Meanwhile, FREMM cost around 753 million and De Zeven Provincien is 675 million, and I doubt that the price would go higher than 50% for a foreign customer.

That might be the reasons to explain why P-17A might get no chance against European competitors.

This is too predictable, anyone with half sense could foresee this long time ago. I remember a long time ago some member Thao or something who tried to fight me because I said something like this and they couldn’t accept the new reality.

Meh. Do remember that Vietnam also did not accept the PCA ruling.

And you need to read the original Russian statements to understand Putin's words. He statement or Russia Federation's stance is not against Vietnam.

 

[William Hung]

Meh. Do remember that Vietnam also did not accept the PCA ruling.

That’s wrong, VN have never said it do not accept the PCA ruling. Source?

When the ruling was issued, VN issue the statement that it welcomed the ruling but can’t comment on the specifics as it needs time to look into the ruling in more details.

And you need to read the original Russian statements to understand Putin's words. He statement or Russia Federation's stance is not against Vietnam.

His words and stance is not targetted against VN but it is contradictory to Vietnam’s own stance. e.g. Russia had already once said the SCS should be dealt with bilaterally and non-claimants need to stay out (which is contrary to VN’s stance) and the VN Foreign Ministry issued a statement saying that it s wrong, all parties has both a right and obligation to be involved since SCS has international water.

 

[Silent Knight]

That’s wrong, VN have never said it do not accept the PCA ruling. Source?

When the ruling was issued, VN issue the statement that it welcomed the ruling but can’t comment on the specifics as it needs time to look into the ruling in more details.

His words and stance is not targetted against VN but it is contradictory to Vietnam’s own stance. e.g. Russia had already once said the SCS should be dealt with bilaterally and non-claimants need to stay out (which is contrary to VN’s stance) and the VN Foreign Ministry issued a statement saying that it s wrong, all parties has both a right and obligation to be involved since SCS has international water.

Accepting the ruling = accepting that Vietnam would have to give up most of its islands and reefs in the Spratly Islands. Did you take a look at the area which Philippines brought to the court?

And yes, Russia's stance might, I repeat: MIGHT, be contradictory to Vietnam's because they have their own national interests. The Russian officials statements might be interpreted in many ways and most of the times bent under Western and/or Vietnamese media (which just repeats what the Western media said).

But is it a betrayal like many Vietnamese screaming these days? I think not.

 

[Viet]

I was in Cambodia earlier this year and I got into talking to a taxi driver about the subject.

Why do you guys hate the Vietnamese? They saved the country from the Khmer Rouge. They don't accept that, they make all sort of excuses to deny that Vietnam helped them. Well, if there is another Khmer Rouge again, Vietnam should not help them.

No, we should not help them out again from the abyss. Let them die. The world does not care, why should we care? Last time, Vietnam army launched invasion, overthrowing the Khmer Rouge regime because the situation had become unbearable. With support from China, they raided our borders killing our people. In their mass killing campaign they targeted especially the viet ethics in Canbodia, sparing nobody, no elders, no women, no children, no babies.

No, we should not save them. Let them die. The only thing we should is sending in paratroopers that would evaluate our people. We must not give the Chinese another excuse to launch another invasion of Vietnam.

 

[Silent Knight]

Overthrowing the Khmer Rouge regime was necessary, otherwise they'll keep attacking our borders and massacre our civilians. The motto was "Giúp bạn cũng là giúp mình" (translit. Help our friends as well as help ourselves).

That's also the reason why we had to stay that long in Cambodia. To build a decent government that can purge the remnant of Khmer Rouge. But the outside world saw that as an unjustified invasion and occupation.

 

[William Hung]

Accepting the ruling = accepting that Vietnam would have to give up most of its islands and reefs in the Spratly Islands. Did you take a look at the area which Philippines brought to the court?

Again, can you provide the source when VN said it “did not accept the PCA ruling”? On the other hand, I can provide the source direct from the FM forwhat I said previously.

So unless you can provide the source where Vietnam said “it did not accept the PCA ruling”, then you are spreading misinformation.

And yes, Russia's stance might, I repeat: MIGHT, be contradictory to Vietnam's because they have their own national interests. The Russian officials statements might be interpreted in many ways and most of the times bent under Western and/or Vietnamese media (which just repeats what the Western media said).

But is it a betrayal like many Vietnamese screaming these days? I think not.

You are overeacting here. Thats exactly what I meant, Russia has its own self-interest, and if Russia’s self-interest happen to align with a Chinese political stance or contradictory to VN’s own stance, Russia would choose its own self-interest over VN’s interest. That is common sense and proven, not sure why you are overeacting.

 

[hoangsa74]

Again, can you provide the source when VN said it “did not accept the PCA ruling”? On the other hand, I can provide the source direct from the FM forwhat I said previously.

So unless you can provide the source where Vietnam said “it did not accept the PCA ruling”, then you are spreading misinformation.




You are overeacting here. Thats exactly what I meant, Russia has its own self-interest, and if Russia’s self-interest happen to align with a Chinese political stance or contradictory to VN’s own stance, Russia would choose its own self-interest over VN’s interest. That is common sense and proven, not sure why you are overeacting.

You're talking to a pro-russki guy that supports Ukrainian separatists and Russian's take over of crimea. I hope he's not stupid enough to advocate separatist movement in Vietnam that is advocated by china

 

[Viet]

Project 17A is still on the paper and not a single ship has been constructed yet. Its predecessor - Project 17 Shivalik - only has 3 ships in its class.

Vietnam tends to choose ship design that has been proven in reality, like at least 10 years of operation without major incident. The lesson from choosing unproven design (BPS-500 missile boat) has delayed several attempts to acquire new ship design (like KBO-2000 frigate). That's why we chose the 11661 Gepard instead of 20382 Tigr. The Gepard is older and less capable, but it has operated for years before the Tigr was born.

Another factor is cost. I read that the expected price for P-17A is about US$ 1,1 billion and that's for the Indian Navy, not foreign customer. Meanwhile, FREMM cost around 753 million and De Zeven Provincien is 675 million, and I doubt that the price would go higher than 50% for a foreign customer.

That might be the reasons to explain why P-17A might get no chance against European competitors.


.

$700 millions a Fremm sounds good to me. Not over a billion or more if we theoretically go for Aegis destroyer. Using domestic components and building the hull in our shipyard would reduce the cost further. Probably to $500 millions. Voila, air defense destroyer is not out of reach as may some argue.

 

[Aqsuperman]

Well i can say that this guy is blind, partially deaf and have a hard time counting subject and understanding a sentence. Probably because American reach climax on his face so much that some of his senses has become dysfunctional.

ou cumback with nothing but a bunch of uneducated cummie comments and "analysis". Now you even use an analogy of a U.S UAV parked on a tarmac and compare it with an RC Toy of yours parked in a tiny little room. I don't believe any third worlder like u have ever seen a square of runway tarmac to even use that to compare with a square of a floor tile, LOL.

Yeah and you smelly and cummy explanation has conveniently dodge the main question. Seem you like to assume size, why dont you made assumption of that UAV wingspan ? "Third world" ? Pfff oh god i mean seriously who the fack do you think you are ? You and your ancestor just happen to cling to helicopter, which you may have fall and hit your head pretty hard, then eat pension from the States. A bit of money from people that consider you as a disease and you think you are "First World" ? Well no wonder you and your "First World" citizen have to purchase plastic rifle to retake this "Third Word" country for 40 years without any future in sight.

I already look at your photos and video. That thing that you guys claim to be a HALE UAV is too tiny, my cummie friend. Your total wingspan is about 10-15 pieces of floor tiles across and that totaled up to be no more than 15 feet. 15 feet is LESS THAN 5 meters my friend, sorry to expose your b.s. I already said, this is an international forum, not your usual vit konk forum where you throw out propaganda to feel good among yourselves. LOL.

Every time you open that mouth, i hope that you face made of something really really really REALLY thick ? Pff international forum ? Oh since when international forum is where you can use slang like "VC", "cummie" and directly insult people and country ? You double standard behavior make you look more like a clumsy animal than a human that try to slide through opposition by jumping from standard to standard to fit your situations. But now let see that your eyes still working or not, which i fear it true since you cant count. If that this picture wont help then you should go to a doctor.

Now use that eyes full of cum of your and count the brick from the right wheel to the pillar on the top left . if you eyes that pitiful and cant even spot a bricks then well good luck with the examination. Even a kid can say its a way lot more than 5 brick. Now what do you say ? Do remember that you dont use 10x10 brick for your house then dont "assume" that this place use 30x30 unless you got money to burn.

Countries with strong industrial base have to go through great length to be able to make a MALE UAV then they move up to HALE UAV. Shitnam of yours has little to no industrial capabilities and now you're telling the world that you jump out of no where and produce a HALE UAV like you're claiming now? You don't even have any wind tunnel to test your flying rc toy or any of your "UFO"; lol. Just look at that p.o.s again and see if it's even anywhere close to the scale of the Reaper?

No its no pop out of nowhere, dip shit. Your ear just full of cum so that you can hear that that this is joint project and testing between Belgium and Vietnam. Not to mention the Magic Eye project with Sweden and the long forgotten M-400 UAV. All are developed for years and sources are on the Internet, you just cant read and ignorance to everything and that you dont line that is all. Your lack of knowledge yet you pretend be in dept sound really retarded so you better put a leash on it or learn to use google a bit . Oh maybe we have to invite you to every testing and assembling in domestic and international ground so that you can control your keyboard with BRAIN ? Or we can say that "Mày là cái thá gì mà ai làm gì cũng phải thông báo mày ?" In fact why dont you proclaim yourself as a chief F-35 pilot since you are way confident in it ability to single - hanedly turn the balance of power in the region ?

Maybe the typical cummie like you can only afford a scooter to go around that's why your head gets bombarded with u.v ray to think straight?

Yeah "international forum" eh ? And thought that typical RVN like you ride in a car while kneeling next to American and take his cum whenever he see fit. After that he throw you some bucks to your face so that you can go around bragging about how you can use that money to "screw beautiful girl" which i find hilarious since of all the thing you can proclaim, use money on whore is the way you use to show your wealth. have fun with your pathetic life, US cumdump.

 

[Silent Knight]

Again, can you provide the source when VN said it “did not accept the PCA ruling”? On the other hand, I can provide the source direct from the FM forwhat I said previously.

So unless you can provide the source where Vietnam said “it did not accept the PCA ruling”, then you are spreading misinformation.

You are overeacting here. Thats exactly what I meant, Russia has its own self-interest, and if Russia’s self-interest happen to align with a Chinese political stance or contradictory to VN’s own stance, Russia would choose its own self-interest over VN’s interest. That is common sense and proven, not sure why you are overeacting.

The FM didn't say Vietnam would accept the PCA ruling either, am I right? We're welcome the ruling, but we don't and won't response to the verdict. Vietnamese FM won't straight up deny the ruling, but given its condition and verdict, do you seriously think that Vietnam would accept that?

I'm not overreacting at all, I'd like to give more clarification for the triangle relationship. That's all.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And for the butthurt RVN boy, well, the boy would rather see Vietnam being invaded and ruled by China than being under the control of those who kicked his ***. So yeah, keep crying to your master and polishing their nails, butthurt boy.

 

[Viet]

World News | Wed Sep 7, 2016 1:41pm EDT
Japan to provide patrol ships to Vietnam amid maritime row with China

An aerial view shows Japan Coast Guard patrol ship, fishing boats from Taiwan and Taiwan's Coast Guard vessel sailing side by side near the disputed islands in the East China Sea, known as Senkaku in Japan, Diaoyu in China and Tiaoyutai in Taiwan, in this photo taken by... REUTERS/Kyodo


The Japanese government said on Wednesday it is ready to provide Vietnam with new patrol ships, in its latest step to boost the maritime law-enforcement capabilities of countries locked in territorial rows with China.

On Tuesday, Japan agreed to provide two large patrol ships and lend up to five used surveillance aircraft to the Philippines, another country at odds with China over sovereignty issues in the South China Sea.

Japan itself has been at loggerheads with China over a group of tiny, uninhabited East China Sea islets.

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe told his Vietnamese counterpart, Nguyen Xuan Phuc, of Tokyo's intention in their meeting on the sidelines of ASEAN-related meetings in Vientiane.

Japan has already provided six patrol ships to Vietnam, but they were all used ones, a Japanese foreign ministry official said, adding that details such as the timing of the delivery and the number of ships to be provided have yet to be fixed.

Japan plans to extend a low-interest loan under its official development assistance program to Vietnam to facilitate the acquisition.

China has laid claim to almost all of the South China Sea, where about $5 trillion worth of seaborne trade passes every year. Brunei, Malaysia, the Philippines, Taiwan and Vietnam also have claims in the sea believed to have rich deposits of oil and gas.

A court of arbitration in The Hague in July said China's claims to the waterway were invalid, after a case was brought by the Philippines. Beijing has refused to recognize the ruling.

(Reporting by Kiyoshi Takenaka; Editing by Hugh Lawson)

 

[hoangsa74]

Well i can say that this guy is blind, partially deaf and have a hard time counting subject and understanding a sentence. Probably because American reach climax on his face so much that some of his senses has become dysfunctional.



Yeah and you smelly and cummy explanation has conveniently dodge the main question. Seem you like to assume size, why dont you made assumption of that UAV wingspan ? "Third world" ? Pfff oh god i mean seriously who the fack do you think you are ? You and your ancestor just happen to cling to helicopter, which you may have fall and hit your head pretty hard, then eat pension from the States. A bit of money from people that consider you as a disease and you think you are "First World" ? Well no wonder you and your "First World" citizen have to purchase plastic rifle to retake this "Third Word" country for 40 years without any future in sight.



Every time you open that mouth, i hope that you face made of something really really really REALLY thick ? Pff international forum ? Oh since when international forum is where you can use slang like "VC", "cummie" and directly insult people and country ? You double standard behavior make you look more like a clumsy animal than a human that try to slide through opposition by jumping from standard to standard to fit your situations. But now let see that your eyes still working or not, which i fear it true since you cant count. If that this picture wont help then you should go to a doctor.

Now use that eyes full of cum of your and count the brick from the right wheel to the pillar on the top left . if you eyes that pitiful and cant even spot a bricks then well good luck with the examination. Even a kid can say its a way lot more than 5 brick. Now what do you say ? Do remember that you dont use 10x10 brick for your house then dont "assume" that this place use 30x30 unless you got money to burn.



No its no pop out of nowhere, dip shit. Your ear just full of cum so that you can hear that that this is joint project and testing between Belgium and Vietnam. Not to mention the Magic Eye project with Sweden and the long forgotten M-400 UAV. All are developed for years and sources are on the Internet, you just cant read and ignorance to everything and that you dont line that is all. Your lack of knowledge yet you pretend be in dept sound really retarded so you better put a leash on it or learn to use google a bit . Oh maybe we have to invite you to every testing and assembling in domestic and international ground so that you can control your keyboard with BRAIN ? Or we can say that "Mày là cái thá gì mà ai làm gì cũng phải thông báo mày ?" In fact why dont you proclaim yourself as a chief F-35 pilot since you are way confident in it ability to single - hanedly turn the balance of power in the region ?



Yeah "international forum" eh ? And thought that typical RVN like you ride in a car while kneeling next to American and take his cum whenever he see fit. After that he throw you some bucks to your face so that you can go around bragging about how you can use that money to "screw beautiful girl" which i find hilarious since of all the thing you can proclaim, use money on whore is the way you use to show your wealth. have fun with your pathetic life, US cumdump.

Got mad, third-world scooter man? lol

The view from the back of that p.o.s you guys claim to be a HALE UAV is even worse than even the frontal previous pic in the video. Damn, that thing is definitely an rc toy, scooter boy. That thing is not 72 feet in wingspan, scooter boy; it is at best 15 feet with one feet per brick. That thing is so tiny and weak; how dare you third-world scooters even compare it to something like the Reaper? What a JOKE. Damn, I have seen students over here build better planes than that p.o.s your scooter phd, scientists, and engineers put together. That thing is so weak, just look at its pathetic landing gears and wings. Those wings will break apart the moment you put it to test in the wind tunnel. Oops, you scooter boy don't have wind tunnel yet, lol. Please, don't even bother mentioning your previous rc toys (that you guys claim to be UAV); you will make the rest of PDFers laugh.

At the end of the day, I drive around in a car, hold U.S Passport, have medical insurance coverage, live in a house, have money to screw beautiful women if I want to. You otoh, hop around miserably in a scooter and sweat all day, hold shitnam passport that got denied visa entry by every country, no medical insurance coverage, live in a mud hut or tube house, have no disposable income to shop for anything including women. I enjoy wayyyyyyyyy higher living standard than you third-world scooter boy and that's all it matters.

 

[Farhan Bohra]

Project 17A is still on the paper and not a single ship has been constructed yet. Its predecessor - Project 17 Shivalik - only has 3 ships in its class.

Vietnam tends to choose ship design that has been proven in reality, like at least 10 years of operation without major incident. The lesson from choosing unproven design (BPS-500 missile boat) has delayed several attempts to acquire new ship design (like KBO-2000 frigate). That's why we chose the 11661 Gepard instead of 20382 Tigr. The Gepard is older and less capable, but it has operated for years before the Tigr was born.

Another factor is cost. I read that the expected price for P-17A is about US$ 1,1 billion and that's for the Indian Navy, not foreign customer. Meanwhile, FREMM cost around 753 million and De Zeven Provincien is 675 million, and I doubt that the price would go higher than 50% for a foreign customer.

That might be the reasons to explain why P-17A might get no chance against European competitors.


Meh. Do remember that Vietnam also did not accept the PCA ruling.

And you need to read the original Russian statements to understand Putin's words. He statement or Russia Federation's stance is not against Vietnam.

That design is not new design, but only upgradation of P-17. And that design directly coming from NDB aka Naval Design Beureu.

Obviously that going to cost more, even a single BrahMos cost 5 times more than normal AShM, and that meant to deploy both BrahMos and Nirbhay.

Even the MF-STAR almost cost triple than european counterpart. Why? You know the reason why? BTW, bigger MF-STAR for Destroyer and Frigate was specifically designed for India, and no one know actual details. What you reading is open source details.

And lastly, obviously the cost is more.

When Indian Navy want to deploy 8 BrahMos+ 8 Nirbhay + 48 Barak-8 ER + 2 RBU-6000 and then Laser based CIWS during first SLEP with only crew of 150. Obviously that going to cost more.

But I was not saying GRSE present same version of Indian Navy. Indian Navy never share its CMS, Command and Control structure, communication etc with anyone else.

GRSE do the same with P-17 A, what they done with Kamotra. They contact DCNS for Vietnamese version of P-17 A.

And without Indian Navy's sensor and weapon packages, without IEP etc etc. The ship not even going to cost half its current price.