Vietnam Defence Forum

[Reashot Xigwin]

Again, you put our claim against the VPA that have no "tangible evidence" with zero collaboration from experts. we are talking numbers, facts, charts,...not imagination. "Vietnam Su-27s rotten in hangar?" No pictures No name? No time period? Then is there any reason to believe that it take place in real life and not your own brain?

"Just because vietnam is peaceful it doesn't mean anything." Peace MEANS everything. If peace is nothing then I wonder why everyone bother with negotiation and compromises? Wait, the world DO care about peace. Indonesia don't bother with peace because you are a country that is filled with safe haven for terrorists. Your Indonesian treat peace as nothing because you are afraid to admit that your army is unable to maintain peace. Period.

"Iraqi under saddam had a large military... So you pretty much compared your country to iraq. A large military with shoddy weapons & tactics. Nice going there"

Well Indonesia with its large military fail to contain rebels and terrorist attack while we can. Good enough for an army with "shoddy weapons & tactics", right? By the way, base on recent news, turn out 3 of the Indonesian soldiers that lost their life belong to Kopassus, your country elite special force. For ill-equipped rebels that on their last legs to come out with such a feat equal 2 things: Either they are too goods or your Army sucks ball. My money is on the latter.

"They don't arrest citizens concerned with the state of the military or do they?". It's actually a criminal offense to post pictures of the military without consulting the Ministry of Defense first. But as far as I'm concern, we are still treat our citizen better than a certain country *Indonesia* that arrest people for singing a song with "inappropriate contents".



Those are...pretty old photos. You just google without checking out the dates of the pictures? Well, in that case, we share the same stuff too here and there so I guess the Indonesia is not too awesome, right?

Classic PT-76 - BTR-50 combo. "Cold War" stuff at its finest.

AMX-13. A pretty "new" tank , right?

A Saladin. This shiet date back to the Vietnam War era

These are..oh my fcking god, BTR-40 right? I only saw some of them in our museums but you guys still hold on to them? Nice windshield btw.

Damn, the Indonesian military have way more old stuff than the Vietnam People Army.



INDONESIA. HAS. ZERO. AIR. DEFENSE. CAPABILITY. Sure you have Close In Weapon System, MANPADS and crap but as if they could stop missile reliably in the last boost phase. And I say we only NEED 50 to cripple Indonesian cities, I don't say we only HAVE 50, "uhuhuhu boy". Once again, you guys already shoot FIRST, not us.Both on the sea and in the forum, the Indonesian always unleash the first shot, not Vietnamese.



You was the one that create this mess, remember? But you also turned tail and ran pretty quick, right Mr. "uhuhuhu boy"? Feel free to put up the facade that you don't want this to happen your fellow countryman but Vietnamese members in the thread already knew that you are the one that start this shiet. Crawl back to the hole you come from and stay there if you actually want this to stop.

Trust me or a communist government that have a history of lying to its people, imprison its critics, torturing dissidents & doesn't allow freedom of thought... Oh yeah that's a real tough choice.

Again your argument can be used against another just as well. So according to your logic Israel, India & Russia remains in chaos is because their army can't maintain peace? Then forgetting how indonesia actually managed to make peace with numerous other rebel groups. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw3sDjjAjubhGB3m9X-Gsxdh

So you're saying the IDF, India's & Russian armed forces is bad because they can't keep peace while the VPA is better because they can?

Wow. That's an ironclad argument over there? (Sarcasm.)

outnumbered 2 to 1 & still ended up taking 10 people with them.

"A force of 50-70 rebels armed with military-grade weapons as well as spears and arrows attacked a group of 25 soldiers in Nduga district in a battle lasting several hours Thursday, said Muhammad Aidi, the military spokesman for Indonesia's easternmost Papua region."

You do realize Robert was also arrested for breaking the law right? Again your attempt to use the moral high ground fail when your government arrested hundreds of people like robert without a trial.

What mess? Its not a mess.. its fun games

Yes we shoot first but atleast we know 6 kilo class submarine aint gonna do shit about it so......

6 kilo can't do shit when we control the entrance to indonesia & the only way in is through a naval fortress.

 

[Aqsuperman]

What mess? Its not a mess.. its fun games

A "fun game" that YOU starts but now you claim that you don't want to continue? For me, it look like you want to have a chance to humiliate us Vietnamese at first but things turn to shiet so fast that you start: "Cmon, it's not going to become a war", "I'm out",... You talk big but once shiet hit the fans, you run away with your tail between your legs?

I know for certain that you are a certified P-U-S-S the moment you start acting as a bully in primary school, "uhuhuhuh" boy.

Yes we shoot first but atleast we know 6 kilo class submarine aint gonna do shit about it so......

Yea, "the Indonesian shoot FIRST", NOT "the Vietnamese shoot FIRST". Yes, YOU are the cause of this debate, NOT us Vietnamese. For now, the situation remain tense but if things come to shove, our Kilo subs will definitely test the Indonesian ability to defense against missile attacks... Wait, you guys have nothing that could contain missiles beside auto cannon so your A-S-S is toasted.

BTW, don't feel too proud because you dare to shoot first. Germany, Italia and Japan all shot first in WW2 while laughing about what people could do to them for such provocations. I guess your history teacher did teach you what happen to the the Axis for their bravery to shoot first, right?

Trust me or a communist government that have a history of lying to its people, imprison its critics, torturing dissidents & doesn't allow freedom of thought... Oh yeah that's a real tough choice.

LET HEAR IT AGAIN, FOLKS

The police used unnecessary and excessive force against demonstrators and protesters, especially in land dispute cases. In the rare instances where investigations took place, little progress was made in bringing perpetrators to justice.

• In January, six palm oil farmers were seriously injured in Jambi Province after Police Mobile Brigade (Brimob) officers fired rubber bullets at them in an attempt to evict them from a plantation they were working on. The plantation was the subject of an ongoing land dispute between the farmers and a palm oil company.
• In June, security forces used unnecessary and excessive force while attempting to forcibly evict a community in Langkat district, North Sumatra. The community had been involved in a land dispute with the local authorities. When the community protested against the eviction, police officers fired on the crowd without warning, injuring at least nine people. Six others were kicked and beaten.

Repeated allegations of torture and otherwise ill-treating detainees by security forces, particularly peaceful political activists in areas with a history of independence movements such as Papua and Maluku has been reported. Independent investigations into such allegations were rare. There were no investigations into allegations of torture and other ill-treatment of 21 peaceful political activists by Special Detachment-88 (Densus-88), a police counter-terrorism unit. The 21 had been tortured during arrest, detention and interrogation in Maluku in August 2010. Caning was increasingly used as a form of judicial punishment in Aceh. At least 72 people were caned for various offences, including drinking alcohol, being alone with someone of the opposite sex who was not a marriage partner or relative (khalwat), and for gambling. The Acehnese authorities passed a series of by-laws governing the implementation of Sharia after the enactment of the province’s Special Autonomy Law in 2001

In January 2018, the Aceh police ransacked a parlor with support from the Aceh autonomous government. The police tortured all LGBT citizens within the premises of the parlor, shaved the heads of transgender women, stripped their shirts and bras, and paraded them in the street while forcing to shout 'to become men'. The event caused massive outrage from human rights organization throughout the world, from Europe, Australia, the Americas, and to liberal sections of Asia. In February 2018, the Indonesian government planned to pass a legislation that would criminalize gay sex. The legislation is supported by all of the 10 political parties of the country, and is expected to pass before Valentines Day. Indonesia has been branded as the most homophobic country in core Asia, along with Malaysia

As if the the human right record of Vietnam get close to Indonesian. Stop imagining as if Indonesia is heaven on earth. Dissident? Oh we indeed lock our dissident in cell, we don't lock them into cage with snake like Indonesian. Freedom of thought? HAH - HAH - HAH, speak like a true hypocrite while Indonesian prosecute people FOR. A. FCKING .SONG. If that is what your idea of freedom of thought then our country is paradise. Don't want to trust a communist? Feel free but I highly doubt people all over the world eager to bite the words coming out of the mouth of a Indonesian after checking these reports. These are not "minor violations", these are "extravagant abuses of power from the police and the military with near impunity" (not my words).

Again your argument can be used against another just as well. So according to your logic Israel, India & Russia remains in chaos is because their army can't maintain peace? Then forgetting how indonesia actually managed to make peace with numerous other rebel groups. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw3sDjjAjubhGB3m9X-Gsxdh

So you're saying the IDF, India's & Russian armed forces is bad because they can't keep peace while the VPA is better because they can?

Wow. That's an ironclad argument over there? (Sarcasm.)

Israelis and Russian face a EXTREMELY tough time with their terrorists and that is why they never bother going out of their way to criticize armies of other countries. You Indonesian? What the Papua rebels have? Long range rockets? Artillery? Tons of dynamite? No, they have some stolen rifles at best. Remember that it was you Indonesian that want to compare armies first. As far as matter concerns, your army sucks as you fail to maintain peace. Want to bring thing to a world scope? That shiet go way above your head.

We Vietnamese feel proud of our army for their ability to maintain peace in our borders. That alone is enough to prove our army is superior to you. An army that fail to keep things in order at home but claim that they could beat other armies? That army is a JOKE and people that trust in it are FOOLS. Period

outnumbered 2 to 1 & still ended up taking 10 people with them.

"A force of 50-70 rebels armed with military-grade weapons as well as spears and arrows attacked a group of 25 soldiers in Nduga district in a battle lasting several hours Thursday, said Muhammad Aidi, the military spokesman for Indonesia's easternmost Papua region."

You do realize Robert was also arrested for breaking the law right? Again your attempt to use the moral high ground fail when your government arrested hundreds of people like robert without a trial.

2 to 1 ? Lol for elite soldiers with automatic firearms to lose men to rebels armed with "spears and arrows" is a big SHAME. Military grade weapon? Did they include machine gun, mortars, guided missiles? No they are rifles from Cold War era. Not to mention that not every Papua rebels carry things that could go boom (as some indeed carry "spears and arrows") so don't get your tits up with your kill ratio. Killing people armed with "spears and arrows" is not an achievement.

Anyway, Kopassus is the elite formation in your country and they lost 3 man to that kind of rag tag rebels? Then I guess your macho army could not turn out quality soldiers to contain such a low level insurrection. Imagine what Hamas, ISIS, Chechen... with their zealous tenacity and modern weapon could do to your pathetic soldiers. Your government would fall in the matter of weeks.

"arrested for breaking the law" ? Singing a makeup song is a crime in Indonesia then? We Vietnamese also arrested people for breaking the law. They also got a chance to present their side of a story. We don't have to resort to moral high ground because we are already far more better than you in that regard.

Want a proof? Name one incident that involve Vietnam People Army and Vietnam Public Security Force shooting protesters. On the other hand, I could list at least dozens of incidents of that kind in Indonesia, police as well as soldiers.

Don't act as if Robertus Robert is the only one in your country that face the retard legal system of Indonesia. Indonesia beat up dissident, shoot protesters, torture prisoners... A series of complaints filled the UN Human Right Commission every year. Unlike you, I have ACTUAL SOURCES to back my claim. I would not make "vague claims" then simply say "I forgot the sources".

6 kilo can't do shit when we control the entrance to indonesia & the only way in is through a naval fortress.

The "naval fortress" that is guarded by the almighty Rheinmetall Oerlikon Millennium Gun? Well, we will torch every facility in that place with long range missiles and bunker buster munitions before we move on to your cities if things get too hot. Once again ,remember that your military possesses near zero protection against missiles. You guys don't have a proper SAM in service. What could you do beside letting our missiles pound you day after day?

 

[Viet]

Trust me or a communist government that have a history of lying to its people, imprison its critics, torturing dissidents & doesn't allow freedom of thought... Oh yeah that's a real tough choice.

Again your argument can be used against another just as well. So according to your logic Israel, India & Russia remains in chaos is because their army can't maintain peace? Then forgetting how indonesia actually managed to make peace with numerous other rebel groups. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw3sDjjAjubhGB3m9X-Gsxdh

So you're saying the IDF, India's & Russian armed forces is bad because they can't keep peace while the VPA is better because they can?

Wow. That's an ironclad argument over there? (Sarcasm.)
View attachment 546291
outnumbered 2 to 1 & still ended up taking 10 people with them.

"A force of 50-70 rebels armed with military-grade weapons as well as spears and arrows attacked a group of 25 soldiers in Nduga district in a battle lasting several hours Thursday, said Muhammad Aidi, the military spokesman for Indonesia's easternmost Papua region."

You do realize Robert was also arrested for breaking the law right? Again your attempt to use the moral high ground fail when your government arrested hundreds of people like robert without a trial.




6 kilo can't do shit when we control the entrance to indonesia & the only way in is through a naval fortress.

No offense but Indonesia is just a small fish on the world stage. Donald Trump visited Vietnam twice. The communist chief is scheduled to visit him at the White House this year again. Interesting deals are expected to be signed. Probably including US weapon delivery. Where is your furniture salesman Widodo?

https://m.english.vietnamnet.vn/fms...-trong-to-visit-u-s--this-year.html#ui=mobile

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

A "fun game" that YOU starts but now you claim that you don't want to continue? For me, it look like you want to have a chance to humiliate us Vietnamese at first but things turn to shiet so fast that you start: "Cmon, it's not going to become a war", "I'm out",... You talk big but once shiet hit the fans, you run away with your tail between your legs?

I know for certain that you are a certified P-U-S-S the moment you start acting as a bully in primary school, "uhuhuhuh" boy.



Yea, "the Indonesian shoot FIRST", NOT "the Vietnamese shoot FIRST". Yes, YOU are the cause of this debate, NOT us Vietnamese. For now, the situation remain tense but if things come to shove, our Kilo subs will definitely test the Indonesian ability to defense against missile attacks... Wait, you guys have nothing that could contain missiles beside auto cannon so your A-S-S is toasted.

BTW, don't feel too proud because you dare to shoot first. Germany, Italia and Japan all shot first in WW2 while laughing about what people could do to them for such provocations. I guess your history teacher did teach you what happen to the the Axis for their bravery to shoot first, right?



LET HEAR IT AGAIN, FOLKS

The police used unnecessary and excessive force against demonstrators and protesters, especially in land dispute cases. In the rare instances where investigations took place, little progress was made in bringing perpetrators to justice.

• In January, six palm oil farmers were seriously injured in Jambi Province after Police Mobile Brigade (Brimob) officers fired rubber bullets at them in an attempt to evict them from a plantation they were working on. The plantation was the subject of an ongoing land dispute between the farmers and a palm oil company.
• In June, security forces used unnecessary and excessive force while attempting to forcibly evict a community in Langkat district, North Sumatra. The community had been involved in a land dispute with the local authorities. When the community protested against the eviction, police officers fired on the crowd without warning, injuring at least nine people. Six others were kicked and beaten.

Repeated allegations of torture and otherwise ill-treating detainees by security forces, particularly peaceful political activists in areas with a history of independence movements such as Papua and Maluku has been reported. Independent investigations into such allegations were rare. There were no investigations into allegations of torture and other ill-treatment of 21 peaceful political activists by Special Detachment-88 (Densus-88), a police counter-terrorism unit. The 21 had been tortured during arrest, detention and interrogation in Maluku in August 2010. Caning was increasingly used as a form of judicial punishment in Aceh. At least 72 people were caned for various offences, including drinking alcohol, being alone with someone of the opposite sex who was not a marriage partner or relative (khalwat), and for gambling. The Acehnese authorities passed a series of by-laws governing the implementation of Sharia after the enactment of the province’s Special Autonomy Law in 2001

In January 2018, the Aceh police ransacked a parlor with support from the Aceh autonomous government. The police tortured all LGBT citizens within the premises of the parlor, shaved the heads of transgender women, stripped their shirts and bras, and paraded them in the street while forcing to shout 'to become men'. The event caused massive outrage from human rights organization throughout the world, from Europe, Australia, the Americas, and to liberal sections of Asia. In February 2018, the Indonesian government planned to pass a legislation that would criminalize gay sex. The legislation is supported by all of the 10 political parties of the country, and is expected to pass before Valentines Day. Indonesia has been branded as the most homophobic country in core Asia, along with Malaysia

As if the the human right record of Vietnam get close to Indonesian. Stop imagining as if Indonesia is heaven on earth. Dissident? Oh we indeed lock our dissident in cell, we don't lock them into cage with snake like Indonesian. Freedom of thought? HAH - HAH - HAH, speak like a true hypocrite while Indonesian prosecute people FOR. A. FCKING .SONG. If that is what your idea of freedom of thought then our country is paradise. Don't want to trust a communist? Feel free but I highly doubt people all over the world eager to bite the words coming out of the mouth of a Indonesian after checking these reports. These are not "minor violations", these are "extravagant abuses of power from the police and the military with near impunity" (not my words).



Israelis and Russian face a EXTREMELY tough time with their terrorists and that is why they never bother going out of their way to criticize armies of other countries. You Indonesian? What the Papua rebels have? Long range rockets? Artillery? Tons of dynamite? No, they have some stolen rifles at best. Remember that it was you Indonesian that want to compare armies first. As far as matter concerns, your army sucks as you fail to maintain peace. Want to bring thing to a world scope? That shiet go way above your head.

We Vietnamese feel proud of our army for their ability to maintain peace in our borders. That alone is enough to prove our army is superior to you. An army that fail to keep things in order at home but claim that they could beat other armies? That army is a JOKE and people that trust in it are FOOLS. Period



2 to 1 ? Lol for elite soldiers with automatic firearms to lose men to rebels armed with "spears and arrows" is a big SHAME. Military grade weapon? Did they include machine gun, mortars, guided missiles? No they are rifles from Cold War era. Not to mention that not every Papua rebels carry things that could go boom (as some indeed carry "spears and arrows") so don't get your tits up with your kill ratio. Killing people armed with "spears and arrows" is not an achievement.

Anyway, Kopassus is the elite formation in your country and they lost 3 man to that kind of rag tag rebels? Then I guess your macho army could not turn out quality soldiers to contain such a low level insurrection. Imagine what Hamas, ISIS, Chechen... with their zealous tenacity and modern weapon could do to your pathetic soldiers. Your government would fall in the matter of weeks.

"arrested for breaking the law" ? Singing a makeup song is a crime in Indonesia then? We Vietnamese also arrested people for breaking the law. They also got a chance to present their side of a story. We don't have to resort to moral high ground because we are already far more better than you in that regard.

Want a proof? Name one incident that involve Vietnam People Army and Vietnam Public Security Force shooting protesters. On the other hand, I could list at least dozens of incidents of that kind in Indonesia, police as well as soldiers.

Don't act as if Robertus Robert is the only one in your country that face the retard legal system of Indonesia. Indonesia beat up dissident, shoot protesters, torture prisoners... A series of complaints filled the UN Human Right Commission every year. Unlike you, I have ACTUAL SOURCES to back my claim. I would not make "vague claims" then simply say "I forgot the sources".



The "naval fortress" that is guarded by the almighty Rheinmetall Oerlikon Millennium Gun? Well, we will torch every facility in that place with long range missiles and bunker buster munitions before we move on to your cities if things get too hot. Once again ,remember that your military possesses near zero protection against missiles. You guys don't have a proper SAM in service. What could you do beside letting our missiles pound you day after day?

Vietnam list of human rights abuse:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_conviction_of_14_Vietnamese_dissidents


Defendants

All 14 defendants were arrested in 2011 as part of the 2011 crackdown on Vietnamese youth activists. They were writers and political and social activists, mainly belonging to Redemptorist group in the Roman Catholic Church.[1][5] They have engaged in community service and fighting against land seizures and corruption. Recently, many activists have been critical of the Vietnamese government, backing other dissidents and bloggers and called for democracy and human rights.[1][5]Some defendants have participated in peaceful protests in support of other previously-convicted dissidents.[

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...ushroom-freed-vietnam-blogger-released-prison

She was later convicted for “anti-state propaganda” for publishing damning Facebook posts about deaths in police custody, a toxic spill in central Vietnam and criticisms of the ruling Communist party.

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/vietnams-crackdown-dissidents-isnt-new-33081

Article twenty-five of the nation’s constitution protects these civil liberties, but the Reporters Without Borders’ Press Freedom Index ranks Vietnam 175 out of 180 countries. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have denounced Vietnam’s arrest and imprisonment of bloggers who have criticized the government, such as Nguyen Van Hoa, who was convicted of spreading anti-state propaganda and sentenced to seven years in prison for reporting on a chemical spill along Vietnam’s central coast in 2017. Earlier that year, a court sentenced blogger Nguyen Ngoc Nhu Quynh, also known as Mother Mushroom, to ten years in prison for writing about the impact of the spill on fish. Paul Robertson of Human Rights Watch’s Asia division criticized the verdictas an example of the Vietnamese government’s “paranoid desire to maintain political control” taking precedent over “justice and human rights.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.al...seeks-silence-dissidents-181115062123198.html

"They raided the concert. They said the singer was singing UNPERMITTED songs," Trang said.

You have no ides how much I waited for you to fall to my trap.

No matter how bad indonesia are, vietnam will always be beneath us in every regard. So there's some consolation in that.

Meanwhile there's thousands of dead of VCs for a couple of dozens GIs. If we compared k/d ratios then vietnam will surely lose. War isn't a game, kid. I come from a military family & the first thing they tell u is that sh!ts happens. Israel lost 100s of soldiers during the lebanon war against an army that might as well have nothing compared to the israeli, Russia although won the 2008 georgian war was humiliated by the much smaller georgian army during the course of the war.

It seems vietnamese forget that they also chuckled spears & rocks at a more superior foes & died in the hundreds but still managed to kill some.

& remember the papuans are braver than the vietnamese. They have no problems putting themselves in the firing line just to recover their friends's body

If you can't handle of seeing your armed forces being criticized then you shouldn't be in the internet in the 1st place. I mean when you guys posted that conscripts can only have an allowance of 3 bullets for weekly training how am I not supposed to laugh.

Question: how can u use cruise missiles if we destroy every viet naval assets? Last time I check we have the better navy & air force. Better training too because vpa rarely trained for actual combat.

Just google at how many joint military exercises we have in a year compared to the vpa for the truth.

 

[Viva_Viet]

Question: how can u use cruise missiles if we destroy every viet naval assets? Last time I check we have the better navy & air force. Better training too because vpa rarely trained for actual combat.

Just google at how many joint military exercises we have in a year compared to the vpa for the truth.

Wow, better training, but still can do almost Nothing to our guardships in disputed zone

 

[warzone]

Vietnam list of human rights abuse:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_conviction_of_14_Vietnamese_dissidents


Defendants

All 14 defendants were arrested in 2011 as part of the 2011 crackdown on Vietnamese youth activists. They were writers and political and social activists, mainly belonging to Redemptorist group in the Roman Catholic Church.[1][5] They have engaged in community service and fighting against land seizures and corruption. Recently, many activists have been critical of the Vietnamese government, backing other dissidents and bloggers and called for democracy and human rights.[1][5]Some defendants have participated in peaceful protests in support of other previously-convicted dissidents.[

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...ushroom-freed-vietnam-blogger-released-prison

She was later convicted for “anti-state propaganda” for publishing damning Facebook posts about deaths in police custody, a toxic spill in central Vietnam and criticisms of the ruling Communist party.

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/vietnams-crackdown-dissidents-isnt-new-33081

Article twenty-five of the nation’s constitution protects these civil liberties, but the Reporters Without Borders’ Press Freedom Index ranks Vietnam 175 out of 180 countries. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have denounced Vietnam’s arrest and imprisonment of bloggers who have criticized the government, such as Nguyen Van Hoa, who was convicted of spreading anti-state propaganda and sentenced to seven years in prison for reporting on a chemical spill along Vietnam’s central coast in 2017. Earlier that year, a court sentenced blogger Nguyen Ngoc Nhu Quynh, also known as Mother Mushroom, to ten years in prison for writing about the impact of the spill on fish. Paul Robertson of Human Rights Watch’s Asia division criticized the verdictas an example of the Vietnamese government’s “paranoid desire to maintain political control” taking precedent over “justice and human rights.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.al...seeks-silence-dissidents-181115062123198.html

"They raided the concert. They said the singer was singing UNPERMITTED songs," Trang said.

View attachment 546405

You have no ides how much I waited for you to fall to my trap.

No matter how bad indonesia are, vietnam will always be beneath us in every regard. So there's some consolation in that.

Meanwhile there's thousands of dead of VCs for a couple of dozens GIs. If we compared k/d ratios then vietnam will surely lose. War isn't a game, kid. I come from a military family & the first thing they tell u is that sh!ts happens. Israel lost 100s of soldiers during the lebanon war against an army that might as well have nothing compared to the israeli, Russia although won the 2008 georgian war was humiliated by the much smaller georgian army during the course of the war.

It seems vietnamese forget that they also chuckled spears & rocks at a more superior foes & died in the hundreds but still managed to kill some.

& remember the papuans are braver than the vietnamese. They have no problems putting themselves in the firing line just to recover their friends's body

If you can't handle of seeing your armed forces being criticized then you shouldn't be in the internet in the 1st place. I mean when you guys posted that conscripts can only have an allowance of 3 bullets for weekly training how am I not supposed to laugh.

Question: how can u use cruise missiles if we destroy every viet naval assets? Last time I check we have the better navy & air force. Better training too because vpa rarely trained for actual combat.

Just google at how many joint military exercises we have in a year compared to the vpa for the truth.

Indonesia have prove nothing in combat in the pas 60 years and they have problems solving their own small conflicts. Indonesia army should focus (and stop run away from the Aussies army) before talking big and mean... You can practice all you want and have the best equipments, and it doesn't guarantee you anything. Just ask the Saudis about Yemen...

So your family have military background? They are cooks, nurses, vehicules repairmen, administration, truck drivers, .... I guess they saw a lot of major Indonesians conflicts like the Papua, East Timor when Indo fight 30 against 1. The Indo know nothing about about majors wars, massive destruction and millions of deaths... just shut up

A modern army today, the combat soldiers (fighting force) represent only between 10-20% of the personnel and the vast majority are non-combat.

When you fight against a super power technological superior with destructive air power and illimited funds for war, the ratio will always be high... More than 100 Russians mercenaries killed by US planes (against 0 US casualties) last February in Syria and the same can be said about the ratio between Iraqi VS US in 2003, the Korean War (PLA vs US) and also the WW2 (Japan vs US) so explain me the difference between these ratio versus the VN war ratio smarty?

It well reported (just google it, smarty) that US military inflated the enemy casualties during VN war to win support for the war. They would inflated the number and also count cilivians as death combattants. Explain me the ratio almost 1;1 for dogfights between North VN vs US...LOL Not bad when we have the same technology. That ratio was the start of the program TOPGUN training for the US air force to solve that ratio...lol

Im sure the Indonesians will doing much better like 1:1 against the US then anyone elses because Indo are tons of experience fighting small ragtag rebels forces number betweeen few hundred to few thousands. Like you said in previous post, with the Indonesians sending troop in VN , the US will win the Viet Nam war

 

[Viva_Viet]

Indonesia have prove nothing in combat in the pas 60 years and they have problems solving their own small conflicts. Indonesia army should focus (and stop run away from the Aussies army) before talking big and mean... You can practice all you want and have the best equipments, and it doesn't guarantee you anything. Just ask the Saudis about Yemen...

So your family have military background? They are cooks, nurses, vehicules repairmen, administration, truck drivers, .... I guess they saw a lot of major Indonesians conflicts like the Papua, East Timor when Indo fight 30 against 1. The Indo know nothing about about majors wars, massive destruction and millions of deaths... just shut up

A modern army today, the combat soldiers (fighting force) represent only between 10-20% of the personnel and the vast majority are non-combat.

When you fight against a super power technological superior with destructive air power and illimited funds for war, the ratio will always be high... More than 100 Russians mercenaries killed by US planes (against 0 US casualties) last February in Syria and the same can be said about the ratio between Iraqi VS US in 2003, the Korean War (PLA vs US) and also the WW2 (Japan vs US) so explain me the difference between these ratio versus the VN war ratio smarty?

It well reported (just google it, smarty) that US military inflated the enemy casualties during VN war to win support for the war. They would inflated the number and also count cilivians as death combattants. Explain me the ratio almost 1;1 for dogfights between North VN vs US...LOL Not bad when we have the same technology. That ratio was the start of the program TOPGUN training for the US air force to solve that ratio...lol

Im sure the Indonesians will doing much better like 1:1 against the US then anyone elses because Indo are tons of experience fighting small ragtag rebels forces number betweeen few hundred to few thousands. Like you said in previous post, with the Indonesians sending troop in VN , the US will win the Viet Nam war

ID has super soldiers, so they can stop our guard ships in disputed zone wt their bare hands. Thats explain why ID dont have any guard ship can match wt VN ones cos they put so much money on training "super soldiers "

 

[Aqsuperman]

You have no ides how much I waited for you to fall to my trap.

No matter how bad indonesia are, vietnam will always be beneath us in every regard. So there's some consolation in that.

Uh huh, very SERIOUS incidents indeed....Wait, NOT . A .SINGLE. CASUALTY. Have Vietnamese DIED because of Vietnamese bullets? NO. Have Indonesian DIED because of Indonesian bullets? YES, PLENTY.

So you conclusion that "vietnam will always be beneath us in every regard" seem fcking hilarious. At the very least, Vietnam is not that EAGER to KILL its own countryman. Could you even comprehend the difference between countries?

• One side shoot people, one side lock people.
• One side torture people, one side lock people.
• One side beat people, one side lock people

Every regard? I cannot see ONE FCKING regard that Indonesia Vietnam regarding dissident treatment, less EVERY.
We never SHED blood against our kins while Indonesian ALREADY shed plenty. As if murder is a lighter crime than "holding people in cells and breakup unannounced gathering" (which you Indonesian also love to do to protesters demonstrations)

Meanwhile there's thousands of dead of VCs for a couple of dozens GIs. If we compared k/d ratios then vietnam will surely lose. War isn't a game, kid. I come from a military family & the first thing they tell u is that sh!ts happens. Israel lost 100s of soldiers during the lebanon war against an army that might as well have nothing compared to the israeli, Russia although won the 2008 georgian war was humiliated by the much smaller georgian army during the course of the war.

We are speaking in present term, mate. Stop jumping back and forth between timeline. But if you want a comparison between kill ratio then...

• Vietnam War: last for 19 years, we lost 1,000,000 man, the US + South Vietnam + Their Allies lost 390,000 (far from just a couple of dozens GIs). Kill ratio? Roughly 2.5 : 1, not too shabby for an army of farmers, right?

• Indonesian National Revolution: last for 4 years, Indonesia lost between 45,000 and 100, 000 man to British 1.200 and Dutch 6,100. Kill ratio? Vary from 6 : 1 to 13 : 1. Yeah, you guys SUCK.

"War isn't a game, kid": Then stop fcking threaten others with war FIRST. "I come from a military family"? So we are comparing background now? Well, I technically SERVE in the Army as a militia. I smell more gunpowder in a week than your Indonesian troops in Papua in a year, just to say about about training tempo. So don't bother bringing out last decade war to explain the poor performance of our army.

It seems vietnamese forget that they also chuckled spears & rocks at a more superior foes & died in the hundreds but still managed to kill some.

& remember the papuans are braver than the vietnamese. They have no problems putting themselves in the firing line just to recover their friends's body

We NEVER throw spear against American soldier, we give them bullet. You might be confused between the Vietnam War and the Indochina War. Go through your history book again.

"Papuans are braver than the vietnamese"? Brave enough to take sortie after sortie from B-52 bombers? No offense against the people in Papua but now, you are acting like the Soviet in the Winter War again:

• Soviet:

"We cannot defeat Finland though we should be much stronger than them? Then we might as well describe them as an invincible army with tanks and planes while they practically have nothing"

• Indonesia:

"We cannot defeat the Papuan rebels though we should be much stronger than them? Then we might as well describe them as an invincible army with tanks and planes while they practically have nothing"

See something familiar? Wait a bit longer and you would claim that the Papuan rebels are comparable to the US Navy Seal Face it, your army SUCKS. Your Kopassus SUCKS. And most of all you SUCK.

Question: how can u use cruise missiles if we destroy every viet naval assets? Last time I check we have the better navy & air force. Better training too because vpa rarely trained for actual combat.

Just google at how many joint military exercises we have in a year compared to the vpa for the truth.

• "every viet naval assets" With what? Hope and dream? We have SAMs as well as land based anti ship missiles that cover every major coastal cities. How could you approach our bases without being obliterated in the first progress? Unlike us, you armed forces have zero air defense against missile and no land-based anti ship missiles. Everything you could do is to toss aircraft and ship against us but guess what: We don't have to get close to Indonesia to launch attacks as we have CRUISE MISSILES. Name one thing you have in your service to contain that.

• "joint military exercises" ? We would not say outright that such exercises carry no benefits but in a 1 vs 1 scenario, how do suggest that your Army put the experience you earn from "joint military exercises" to use? The VPA is not a army that like fanfare, we don't invite foreign journalists to our army excises in order to get some praises. Our Armed Forces focus EXCLUSIVELY on combine-arm operations, nothing more.

• "Better training too because vpa rarely trained for actual combat" oh more vague claims that you conveniently "forget the source" then? We train around the clock and take part in exercise every quarter. But I could show proof that we are better than you, proof that even you could access. Again, we are in the 21st century, don't jumb back to the Vietnam War at your leisure to compare 1970s and 2010s. You don't compare WW1 Mark IV tank with M1 Abrams. But if you like past stories so much then I can show you the performance of your army in the war against the Dutch.

Vietnam: No insurrection, terrorists attack for the last 20 years
Indonesia: Ongoing insurrection, constant terrorists attack for the last 20 years

You claim that you have a good army, a "regional power with global reach" but your army could not secure peace? Then your army is nowhere as good as you claim to be. Plain and simple. Thing might be different if what you face are well-trained rebels armed with top of the line weapon but as they are now, the Papuan rebels are way below average when it comes to weapon. If even the almighty Kopassus fall to rebels with "spear and arrow" then it's natural to conclude that the rest of your army would definitely yield far worse results against actual military.

 

[Viva_Viet]

Uh huh, very SERIOUS incidents indeed....Wait, NOT . A .SINGLE. CASUALTY. Have Vietnamese DIED because of Vietnamese bullets? NO. Have Indonesian DIED because of Indonesian bullets? YES, PLENTY.

So you conclusion that "vietnam will always be beneath us in every regard" seem fcking hilarious. At the very least, Vietnam is not that EAGER to KILL its own countryman. Could you even comprehend the difference between countries?

• One side shoot people, one side lock people.
• One side torture people, one side lock people.
• One side beat people, one side lock people

Every regard? I cannot see ONE FCKING regard that Indonesia Vietnam regarding dissident treatment, less EVERY.
We never SHED blood against our kins while Indonesian ALREADY shed plenty. As if murder is a lighter crime than "holding people in cells and breakup unannounced gathering" (which you Indonesian also love to do to protesters demonstrations)



We are speaking in present term, mate. Stop jumping back and forth between timeline. But if you want a comparison between kill ratio then...

• Vietnam War: last for 19 years, we lost 1,000,000 man, the US + South Vietnam + Their Allies lost 390,000 (far from just a couple of dozens GIs). Kill ratio? Roughly 2.5 : 1, not too shabby for an army of farmers, right?

• Indonesian National Revolution: last for 4 years, Indonesia lost between 45,000 and 100, 000 man to British 1.200 and Dutch 6,100. Kill ratio? Vary from 6 : 1 to 13 : 1. Yeah, you guys SUCK.

"War isn't a game, kid": Then stop fcking threaten others with war FIRST. "I come from a military family"? So we are comparing background now? Well, I technically SERVE in the Army as a militia. I smell more gunpowder in a week than your Indonesian troops in Papua in a year, just to say about about training tempo. So don't bother bringing out last decade war to explain the poor performance of our army.



We NEVER throw spear against American soldier, we give them bullet. You might be confused between the Vietnam War and the Indochina War. Go through your history book again.

"Papuans are braver than the vietnamese"? Brave enough to take sortie after sortie from B-52 bombers? No offense against the people in Papua but now, you are acting like the Soviet in the Winter War again:

• Soviet:

"We cannot defeat Finland though we should be much stronger than them? Then we might as well describe them as an invincible army with tanks and planes while they practically have nothing"

• Indonesia:

"We cannot defeat the Papuan rebels though we should be much stronger than them? Then we might as well describe them as an invincible army with tanks and planes while they practically have nothing"

See something familiar? Wait a bit longer and you would claim that the Papuan rebels are comparable to the US Navy Seal Face it, your army SUCKS. Your Kopassus SUCKS. And most of all you SUCK.

• "every viet naval assets" With what? Hope and dream? We have SAMs as well as land based anti ship missiles that cover every major coastal cities. How could you approach our bases without being obliterated in the first progress? Unlike us, you armed forces have zero air defense against missile and no land-based anti ship missiles. Everything you could do is to toss aircraft and ship against us but guess what: We don't have to get close to Indonesia to launch attacks as we have CRUISE MISSILES. Name one thing you have in your service to contain that.

• "joint military exercises" ? We would not say outright that such exercises carry no benefits but in a 1 vs 1 scenario, how do suggest that your Army put the experience you earn from "joint military exercises" to use? The VPA is not a army that like fanfare, we don't invite foreign journalists to our army excises in order to get some praises. Our Armed Forces focus EXCLUSIVELY on combine-arm operations, nothing more.

• "Better training too because vpa rarely trained for actual combat" oh more vague claims that you conveniently "forget the source" then? We train around the clock and take part in exercise every quarter. But I could show proof that we are better than you, proof that even you could access. Again, we are in the 21st century, don't jumb back to the Vietnam War at your leisure to compare 1970s and 2010s. You don't compare WW1 Mark IV tank with M1 Abrams. But if you like past stories so much then I can show you the performance of your army in the war against the Dutch.

Vietnam: No insurrection, terrorists attack for the last 20 years
Indonesia: Ongoing insurrection, constant terrorists attack for the last 20 years

You claim that you have a good army, a "regional power with global reach" but your army could not secure peace? Then your army is nowhere as good as you claim to be. Plain and simple. Thing might be different if what you face are well-trained rebels armed with top of the line weapon but as they are now, the Papuan rebels are way below average when it comes to weapon. If even the almighty Kopassus fall to rebels with "spear and arrow" then it's natural to conclude that the rest of your army would definitely yield far worse results against actual military.

"Captain Indos" is far more superor than Captain Ames bro. Captain Ames nid a shield in the movie, but Captain Indos only use bare hands to stop VN guard ships

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Uh huh, very SERIOUS incidents indeed....Wait, NOT . A .SINGLE. CASUALTY. Have Vietnamese DIED because of Vietnamese bullets? NO. Have Indonesian DIED because of Indonesian bullets? YES, PLENTY.

So you conclusion that "vietnam will always be beneath us in every regard" seem fcking hilarious. At the very least, Vietnam is not that EAGER to KILL its own countryman. Could you even comprehend the difference between countries?

• One side shoot people, one side lock people.
• One side torture people, one side lock people.
• One side beat people, one side lock people

Every regard? I cannot see ONE FCKING regard that Indonesia Vietnam regarding dissident treatment, less EVERY.
We never SHED blood against our kins while Indonesian ALREADY shed plenty. As if murder is a lighter crime than "holding people in cells and breakup unannounced gathering" (which you Indonesian also love to do to protesters demonstrations)



We are speaking in present term, mate. Stop jumping back and forth between timeline. But if you want a comparison between kill ratio then...

• Vietnam War: last for 19 years, we lost 1,000,000 man, the US + South Vietnam + Their Allies lost 390,000 (far from just a couple of dozens GIs). Kill ratio? Roughly 2.5 : 1, not too shabby for an army of farmers, right?

• Indonesian National Revolution: last for 4 years, Indonesia lost between 45,000 and 100, 000 man to British 1.200 and Dutch 6,100. Kill ratio? Vary from 6 : 1 to 13 : 1. Yeah, you guys SUCK.

"War isn't a game, kid": Then stop fcking threaten others with war FIRST. "I come from a military family"? So we are comparing background now? Well, I technically SERVE in the Army as a militia. I smell more gunpowder in a week than your Indonesian troops in Papua in a year, just to say about about training tempo. So don't bother bringing out last decade war to explain the poor performance of our army.



We NEVER throw spear against American soldier, we give them bullet. You might be confused between the Vietnam War and the Indochina War. Go through your history book again.

"Papuans are braver than the vietnamese"? Brave enough to take sortie after sortie from B-52 bombers? No offense against the people in Papua but now, you are acting like the Soviet in the Winter War again:

• Soviet:

"We cannot defeat Finland though we should be much stronger than them? Then we might as well describe them as an invincible army with tanks and planes while they practically have nothing"

• Indonesia:

"We cannot defeat the Papuan rebels though we should be much stronger than them? Then we might as well describe them as an invincible army with tanks and planes while they practically have nothing"

See something familiar? Wait a bit longer and you would claim that the Papuan rebels are comparable to the US Navy Seal Face it, your army SUCKS. Your Kopassus SUCKS. And most of all you SUCK.

• "every viet naval assets" With what? Hope and dream? We have SAMs as well as land based anti ship missiles that cover every major coastal cities. How could you approach our bases without being obliterated in the first progress? Unlike us, you armed forces have zero air defense against missile and no land-based anti ship missiles. Everything you could do is to toss aircraft and ship against us but guess what: We don't have to get close to Indonesia to launch attacks as we have CRUISE MISSILES. Name one thing you have in your service to contain that.

• "joint military exercises" ? We would not say outright that such exercises carry no benefits but in a 1 vs 1 scenario, how do suggest that your Army put the experience you earn from "joint military exercises" to use? The VPA is not a army that like fanfare, we don't invite foreign journalists to our army excises in order to get some praises. Our Armed Forces focus EXCLUSIVELY on combine-arm operations, nothing more.

• "Better training too because vpa rarely trained for actual combat" oh more vague claims that you conveniently "forget the source" then? We train around the clock and take part in exercise every quarter. But I could show proof that we are better than you, proof that even you could access. Again, we are in the 21st century, don't jumb back to the Vietnam War at your leisure to compare 1970s and 2010s. You don't compare WW1 Mark IV tank with M1 Abrams. But if you like past stories so much then I can show you the performance of your army in the war against the Dutch.

Vietnam: No insurrection, terrorists attack for the last 20 years
Indonesia: Ongoing insurrection, constant terrorists attack for the last 20 years

You claim that you have a good army, a "regional power with global reach" but your army could not secure peace? Then your army is nowhere as good as you claim to be. Plain and simple. Thing might be different if what you face are well-trained rebels armed with top of the line weapon but as they are now, the Papuan rebels are way below average when it comes to weapon. If even the almighty Kopassus fall to rebels with "spear and arrow" then it's natural to conclude that the rest of your army would definitely yield far worse results against actual military.

Why can't you just admit your country is worse than us. If u can't vote, protest or demand fair wages then you are objectively speaking are far worse than us. Hell even cambodia scored better than yours.

Somehow killing someone in detention for speaking out against corruption & enslaving someone is better somehow?

Don't you know? Vietnam don't have enough bullets to spare. They pretty much kill their citizens in prisons by torturing them.

North korea don't have a terrorism problem & doesn't need to use bullets (in public)... You comparing yourself to north korea?

If vpa trained in joint operation in secret (which I doubt it) how do you keep it secret from the public? Thousands of people & millions of dollars worth of material don't just disappear & reappears. Unless vietnam's corruption is that bad? And can I have some proof of that plz.

Also Vietnam don't have the equivalent of a joint chief of staffs or panglima. To coordinate between the different branches. The Politburo is the one making the military decision. Yep the VPA will be constrained by government bureaucracy if war ever breaks out.

VPA is not a military they're technically a branch of the communist party. They will never be an efficient fighting force as long as the communist is in charge.

Again we don't need to be afraid of vietnam's missiles hitting any civy because vietnam CANNOT wage an offensive war. Didn't I just said that the natuna airbase can strike 5 country? That country included yours more specifically the airbase & naval port in the south.

Phu quoc, nhon thraob & the airforce bases in the south will be decimated before the main fleet from cahm ranh arrived. By then it would be too late.

VPA are untested & untrained in combat. While TNI already have an experience fighting actual enemy & have more yearly exercises involving thousands of personnel from all branches.

 

[Viva_Viet]

Why can't you just admit your country is worse than us. If u can't vote, protest or demand fair wages then you are objectively speaking are far worse than us. Hell even cambodia scored better than yours.

Somehow killing someone in detention for speaking out against corruption & enslaving someone is better somehow?

Don't you know? Vietnam don't have enough bullets to spare. They pretty much kill their citizens in prisons by torturing them.

North korea don't have a terrorism problem & doesn't need to use bullets (in public)... You comparing yourself to north korea?

If vpa trained in joint operation in secret (which I doubt it) how do you keep it secret from the public? Thousands of people & millions of dollars worth of material don't just disappear & reappears. Unless vietnam's corruption is that bad? And can I have some proof of that plz.

Also Vietnam don't have the equivalent of a joint chief of staffs or panglima. To coordinate between the different branches. The Politburo is the one making the military decision. Yep the VPA will be constrained by government bureaucracy if war ever breaks out.

VPA is not a military they're technically a branch of the communist party. They will never be an efficient fighting force as long as the communist is in charge.

Again we don't need to be afraid of vietnam's missiles hitting any civy because vietnam CANNOT wage an offensive war. Didn't I just said that the natuna airbase can strike 5 country? That country included yours more specifically the airbase & naval port in the south.

View attachment 546500
View attachment 546501

Phu quoc, nhon thraob & the airforce bases in the south will be decimated before the main fleet from cahm ranh arrived. By then it would be too late.

VPA are untested & untrained in combat. While TNI already have an experience fighting actual enemy & have more yearly exercises involving thousands of personnel from all branches.

Then stop our guard ships in disputed zone first. We r taking tons of good fish, crab, losbter in VN-ID disputed zone evryday and leave Nothing to ID fisherman

VN rammed ID guard ship and arrest ID officer. But ID " super man " came to resuce and forced VN to release the officer

--------------------------
Detained fisheries official released by Vietnam

• Tama Salim
  The Jakarta Post

Jakarta / Tue, May 30, 2017 / 10:59 am

Vietnam Coast Guard 8005 vessel allegedly hit a Vietnamese-flagged fishing boat, which was previously caught by Indonesian authorities for alleged poaching in Indonesian waters. The boat sunk and Indonesian patrol personnel Danang Gunawan Wibisono, who was guarding it, was detained by the Vietnamese authorities. (The Jakarta Post/Source)
0
SHARES
Vietnam released on Monday an Indonesian fisheries official who was recently detained by the Vietnamese coast guard after intercepting five Vietnamese fishing boats in waters allegedly claimed by both countries.

Danang Gunawan Wibisono, an officer from the Marine and Fisheries Ministry (KKP) who was taken into custody by Vietnamese coast guard officials last week, arrived in Jakarta on Monday following “intensive coordination through diplomatic channels” between the governments of Indonesia and Vietnam, KKP secretary general Rifky Hardjianto revealed.

“Gunawan was a crewmember onboard Hiu Macan 01 patrol ship and took part in the processing of five Vietnamese fishing boats captured on May 21 in the Natuna Sea, Riau islands,” Rifky said in a statement to The Jakarta Post late on Monday.

The KKP official was evacuated to a Vietnamese coast guard ship when the captured boat he was inspecting – KH 97579 TS – capsized at the location it was seized. He spent a few days on board the coast guard vessel until it docked in Ho Chi Minh City, before the Vietnamese side handed him over to the Indonesian Consulate General there on Saturday, Rifky said.

https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2017/05/30/detained-fisheries-official-released-by-vietnam.html

 

[Aqsuperman]

First, I have proposition for you: You see, this is the Vietnam Defense Forum after all and therefore, we Vietnamese love to post things that are relevant to the Vietnam People Armed Forces in here. This debate stray way too far from the subject of the thread and the Vietnamese members are getting extremely frustrated. Striver whatever , the one that starts everything already fled the scene.

So I have 3 courses of action for you:

• You drop it. We drop it. Then the Indonesian and the Vietnamese could go back to do what they want to without giving a fck about the others. Just like the old days.

• Dying to settle an argument that no longer prove too relevant to each parties? Then make a separate thread, name it "Indonesia vs Vietnam: The Argument That Last Until The Apocalypse" or something like that. As long as you keep the name neutral then it's fine. Afterward, tag me and a couple of Vietnamese members in there and we shall have our showdown.

• You are an ultra D-I-C-K that wan to keep things exactly the way there are? Then simply keep doing what you are doing. It's going to be a test of endurance and hopefully it ends before the Papua rebels achieve independence for their land.

Your call.

In the case you go with the D-I-C-K option , feel free to feast your eyes to the below

Why can't you just admit your country is worse than us. If u can't vote, protest or demand fair wages then you are objectively speaking are far worse than us. Hell even cambodia scored better than yours.

Somehow killing someone in detention for speaking out against corruption & enslaving someone is better somehow?

Don't you know? Vietnam don't have enough bullets to spare. They pretty much kill their citizens in prisons by torturing them.

North korea don't have a terrorism problem & doesn't need to use bullets (in public)... You comparing yourself to north korea?

Sources, sources, sources, sources annnnnnnnnd sources. Show it to me, mate. "Oh Vietnam kill people in secret like North Korea, no one know about that but me, an Indonesian happen to know about them. I just knew it". That is a rambling of fool that is running out of reason (and possibility sanity). You really test my patient with your imagination. We are talking facts that could be backed by credible sources, not speculations, unfounded analyses and dreams. We are are talking about Vietnam, not North Korea, not China, not any country that you kindly link to us. I . NEED. PROOF. Want me to spell it out? P-R-O-O-F. Not I-M-A-G-I-N-A-T-I-O-N.

You Indonesian KILL people, you Indonesian TORTURE people and most of all, You Indonesian TREAT minor ethics like TRASH. I could throw tons of article about that but what could you do? Show me article that Vietnam government lock some people up? So far, UN Human Right Commission never charge us with locking minorities into cages with snakes, torturing people and shooting protesters. Understand? You SHOOT people. We DON'T SHOOT people. So is it true that we lack bullet so we could not shoot people? As if anyone the world bite that kind of logic lol.

Here, use this search phrase: "Diễn tập quân sự Việt Nam". It stand for "Vietnam military exercises". See if we have ever experience lacks of ammunition. Not to mention that most of the videos on the internet come from Vietnam reservists, not front line formations.

If vpa trained in joint operation in secret (which I doubt it) how do you keep it secret from the public? Thousands of people & millions of dollars worth of material don't just disappear & reappears. Unless vietnam's corruption is that bad? And can I have some proof of that plz.

It's called "military secrecy" lol. Is that a new word to the Indonesian? How could the American develop new generation aircraft? Well they pick a large stretch of land, quarantine the place, name it Area 51 and take care of their business there without prying eyes of the public. The same thing happen in Vietnam and as ammunition and soldier shuffle between bases, "millions of dollars worth of material don't just disappear & reappears" indeed occur. But for the Indonesian soldiers that are dying for public attention, I bet they post pictures about their bases and onsite equipment on the Internet day and night, right? That what you make your army SUCKS.

Also Vietnam don't have the equivalent of a joint chief of staffs or panglima. To coordinate between the different branches. The Politburo is the one making the military decision. Yep the VPA will be constrained by government bureaucracy if war ever breaks out.

VPA is not a military they're technically a branch of the communist party. They will never be an efficient fighting force as long as the communist is in charge.

More claim without backup sources Sure, Politburo members have a saying in military matters but thing automatically follow already-established work frames in wartime including local defense and overall strategy. The Politburo then only need to win the war. We fought 3 FCKING LONG WARS from the 1945 to 1990 so if our coordination system is too bureaucratic , we would ALL wind up dead a long time ago. For your information, back in the days, we successfully deal with 3 members from the UN Security Council so don't tell us how to wage wars. You Indonesian could barely coordinate you troops smooth enough to kill small-time rebels and you dare claim that you could outsmart us in combat? GET. FCKING. REAL.

Want proof? How about we go back and analyze the kill ratio again?

Again we don't need to be afraid of vietnam's missiles hitting any civy because vietnam CANNOT wage an offensive war. Didn't I just said that the natuna airbase can strike 5 country? That country included yours more specifically the airbase & naval port in the south.

Phu quoc, nhon thraob & the airforce bases in the south will be decimated before the main fleet from cahm ranh arrived. By then it would be too late.

VPA are untested & untrained in combat. While TNI already have an experience fighting actual enemy & have more yearly exercises involving thousands of personnel from all branches.[/QUOTE]

Let's see what we, the poor VPA got in term of air defense and anti ship weapon in our naval and navy bases...

This

This

This

This

Annnnnnnnd...this. A CIWS just like your awesome Millennium

"VPA are untested & untrained in combat. While TNI already have an experience fighting actual enemy & have more yearly exercises involving thousands of personnel from all branches"

Uhh... you are high on drugs? the VPA already FOUGHT and CAME OUT ON TOP in a series of wars. "Untested & untrained" my A-S-S. Here, use this phrase "Wars that involve Vietnam" and count how many conflict the VPA participated in.

Once again, we have to come back on thing you Indonesia are afraid to admit: your army SUCKS.

"experience fighting actual enemy & have more yearly exercises involving thousands of personnel from all branches." What do you mean by "actual enemies"? The Papua? The Aceh? Those are..."actual enemies" to you? you must not mean the Dutch or the Anglo, right? Because that mean the French, the US and the Chinese that had a beef with the VPA in the past are not "actual enemies"?

Well, I hate to break it to you but: Regardless of what you brag about your "almighty Indonesia army", it's the PERFORMANCE on the field that DECIDE it all.

• You have an ongoing insurrection in your country? Check.
• For the last 10 years or so, your country is ravaged by terrorist attacks? Check.
• Indonesian rebels in Papua have nothing but terrible weapon but they still manage to waste 3 soldier from the elite Kopassus? Check

In Vietnam, we have none of those. Good enough of a reason for you?

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

First, I have proposition for you: You see, this is the Vietnam Defense Forum after all and therefore, we Vietnamese love to post things that are relevant to the Vietnam People Armed Forces in here. This debate stray way too far from the subject of the thread and the Vietnamese members are getting extremely frustrated. Striver whatever , the one that starts everything already fled the scene.

So I have 3 courses of action for you:

• You drop it. We drop it. Then the Indonesian and the Vietnamese could go back to do what they want to without giving a fck about the others. Just like the old days.

• Dying to settle an argument that no longer prove too relevant to each parties? Then make a separate thread, name it "Indonesia vs Vietnam: The Argument That Last Until The Apocalypse" or something like that. As long as you keep the name neutral then it's fine. Afterward, tag me and a couple of Vietnamese members in there and we shall have our showdown.

• You are an ultra D-I-C-K that wan to keep things exactly the way there are? Then simply keep doing what you are doing. It's going to be a test of endurance and hopefully it ends before the Papua rebels achieve independence for their land.

Your call.

In the case you go with the D-I-C-K option , feel free to feast your eyes to the below



Sources, sources, sources, sources annnnnnnnnd sources. Show it to me, mate. "Oh Vietnam kill people in secret like North Korea, no one know about that but me, an Indonesian happen to know about them. I just knew it". That is a rambling of fool that is running out of reason (and possibility sanity). You really test my patient with your imagination. We are talking facts that could be backed by credible sources, not speculations, unfounded analyses and dreams. We are are talking about Vietnam, not North Korea, not China, not any country that you kindly link to us. I . NEED. PROOF. Want me to spell it out? P-R-O-O-F. Not I-M-A-G-I-N-A-T-I-O-N.

You Indonesian KILL people, you Indonesian TORTURE people and most of all, You Indonesian TREAT minor ethics like TRASH. I could throw tons of article about that but what could you do? Show me article that Vietnam government lock some people up? So far, UN Human Right Commission never charge us with locking minorities into cages with snakes, torturing people and shooting protesters. Understand? You SHOOT people. We DON'T SHOOT people. So is it true that we lack bullet so we could not shoot people? As if anyone the world bite that kind of logic lol.

Here, use this search phrase: "Diễn tập quân sự Việt Nam". It stand for "Vietnam military exercises". See if we have ever experience lacks of ammunition. Not to mention that most of the videos on the internet come from Vietnam reservists, not front line formations.



It's called "military secrecy" lol. Is that a new word to the Indonesian? How could the American develop new generation aircraft? Well they pick a large stretch of land, quarantine the place, name it Area 51 and take care of their business there without prying eyes of the public. The same thing happen in Vietnam and as ammunition and soldier shuffle between bases, "millions of dollars worth of material don't just disappear & reappears" indeed occur. But for the Indonesian soldiers that are dying for public attention, I bet they post pictures about their bases and onsite equipment on the Internet day and night, right? That what you make your army SUCKS.



More claim without backup sources Sure, Politburo members have a saying in military matters but thing automatically follow already-established work frames in wartime including local defense and overall strategy. The Politburo then only need to win the war. We fought 3 FCKING LONG WARS from the 1945 to 1990 so if our coordination system is too bureaucratic , we would ALL wind up dead a long time ago. For your information, back in the days, we successfully deal with 3 members from the UN Security Council so don't tell us how to wage wars. You Indonesian could barely coordinate you troops smooth enough to kill small-time rebels and you dare claim that you could outsmart us in combat? GET. FCKING. REAL.

Want proof? How about we go back and analyze the kill ratio again?

Phu quoc, nhon thraob & the airforce bases in the south will be decimated before the main fleet from cahm ranh arrived. By then it would be too late.

VPA are untested & untrained in combat. While TNI already have an experience fighting actual enemy & have more yearly exercises involving thousands of personnel from all branches.

Let's see what we, the poor VPA got in term of air defense and anti ship weapon in our naval and navy bases...

This

This

This

This

Annnnnnnnd...this. A CIWS just like your awesome Millennium

"VPA are untested & untrained in combat. While TNI already have an experience fighting actual enemy & have more yearly exercises involving thousands of personnel from all branches"

Uhh... you are high on drugs? the VPA already FOUGHT and CAME OUT ON TOP in a series of wars. "Untested & untrained" my A-S-S. Here, use this phrase "Wars that involve Vietnam" and count how many conflict the VPA participated in.

Once again, we have to come back on thing you Indonesia are afraid to admit: your army SUCKS.

"experience fighting actual enemy & have more yearly exercises involving thousands of personnel from all branches." What do you mean by "actual enemies"? The Papua? The Aceh? Those are..."actual enemies" to you? you must not mean the Dutch or the Anglo, right? Because that mean the French, the US and the Chinese that had a beef with the VPA in the past are not "actual enemies"?

Well, I hate to break it to you but: Regardless of what you brag about your "almighty Indonesia army", it's the PERFORMANCE on the field that DECIDE it all.

• You have an ongoing insurrection in your country? Check.
• For the last 10 years or so, your country is ravaged by terrorist attacks? Check.
• Indonesian rebels in Papua have nothing but terrible weapon but they still manage to waste 3 soldier from the elite Kopassus? Check

In Vietnam, we have none of those. Good enough of a reason for you?[/QUOTE]


So you didn't read the link?

Quynh was arrested for posting what police described as anti-state reports, including one about civilians dying in police custody
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1MR1B0

Vietnam is ranked bottom 5 in journalist freedom for a reason. Whenever people wanted to report systemic abuses they have a tendency to disappear. The only news that you hear are the one the VCP wanted you to hear.

Tyranny is a defining characteristic of Vietnam’s communist party and the very reason the party has controlled the country for more than forty years. The arrest of Kim Nga’s husband and the imprisonment and disappearances of other bloggers and activists in recent years represents not a new wave of crackdowns under one particularly harsh president but the status quo relationship between citizens and their government in Vietnam since the communist party took power in the 1970s.
https://nationalinterest.org/feature/vietnams-crackdown-dissidents-isnt-new-33081

Vietnam doesn't have the equivalent of area 51 nor does it have the equivalent of lockheed skunkworks. Nice try though & Soldiers still need permission to post sensitive equipments. There's actually a tactical reason for using social media. It helps with public perceptions & morales among other things.

TNI goes from the most hated during the suharto period to the most loved institution after the reformation because of the smart use of social media.

A good read about the topic of the military use of social media:
https://socialwebtactics.com/government-social-media/how-the-us-military-uses-instagram/
You don't see the US having any problems of keeping military secrets despite seemingly almost half of their military on instagram.

Vietnam on the other hand still stuck in a cold war mindset because they are afraid that people going to found out that the emperor have no clothes. The truth is everybody already know that vietnam fudge the numbers when it came to their military to show that they are larger than they actually are.

This again explain why vietnam can maintain a "large army" despite having a more smaller economy than Philippines or Thailand. It also explain the lack of transparency & why despite this is a military forum there's hardly any military contents. There's just absolutely no way vietnam can maintain that amount of armaments it claimed with the current economic, research & industrial output. Without cutting corners & lying about it. That's just common sense.

The hundreds thousands of dead vietnamese & russian during ww2 might have something else to say about that. Politics is not military. The situation on the ground are completely different than the one on the desk. The soviet systems of central planning are not meant to win war they are meant to keep the communist party in place, winning the war is a secondary concerns. And If central committee planning is so good why did the russian decided to replace it with a more flexible western systems by 2030? Clearly even they see the communist military planning are outdated by today standard. Every vietnamese soldiers whenever they ask for artillery support or reinforcement have to pass it on to the chain of command until they can find someone with the proper authorization. In the west & TNI a squad can order a strike or retreat without needing it to be approved by bureaucrats 1st hand. That's why western army always have less casualties compared to those in the east. Also you guys didn't win alone you got china & the USSR to thank you for that.

Also a fun fact. The TNI spends more on their dog units than the VPA spends on their grunts.

So does that mean. That Dogs>VPA?

Most of your air defense are outdated soviet craps. Remember monkey model? That kind of air defense didn't help much in syria now does it.

Our pilots have clocked in more hours than the VN pilots. I think they can handle it.

Not to mention we have the more advanced martadina & nagapass class to help out.

 

[Viva_Viet]

Our pilots have clocked in more hours than the VN pilots. I think they can handle it.

Not to mention we have the more advanced martadina & nagapass class to help out.

war bween VN-ID will not happen in near future, so the armies will not be used. It'd better to show that u can have a better coast guard ships than VN.

Of course u cant cos ID guard ships r too small, thats why we can arrest ID offiers as easy as kid

 

[Aqsuperman]

Ok my mistake, forget my proposition then You must be a total dick

So you didn't read the link?

Quynh was arrested for posting what police described as anti-state reports, including one about civilians dying in police custody
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1MR1B0

Vietnam is ranked bottom 5 in journalist freedom for a reason. Whenever people wanted to report systemic abuses they have a tendency to disappear. The only news that you hear are the one the VCP wanted you to hear.

Tyranny is a defining characteristic of Vietnam’s communist party and the very reason the party has controlled the country for more than forty years. The arrest of Kim Nga’s husband and the imprisonment and disappearances of other bloggers and activists in recent years represents not a new wave of crackdowns under one particularly harsh president but the status quo relationship between citizens and their government in Vietnam since the communist party took power in the 1970s.
https://nationalinterest.org/feature/vietnams-crackdown-dissidents-isnt-new-33081

Vietnam doesn't have the equivalent of area 51 nor does it have the equivalent of lockheed skunkworks. Nice try though & Soldiers still need permission to post sensitive equipments. There's actually a tactical reason for using social media. It helps with public perceptions & morales among other things.

I read all of your links but guess what...NO-ONE-DIED-YET.

Once again, your brain fail to take the factor of BLOODSHED into account. You ramble on and on and on about tyranny in Vietnam but have Vietnamese dissidents actually died/got tortured/got shot in real life and not in your pathetic imagination? "Disappearances" ? Guess what: people that go against the government in Indonesia disappear all the time as well and I have their name, places and period. Want to hear them instead of appropriating vague claim you got from a quick google search? You police and military pull all kind of stunt there but guess what Indonesian blood is so cheap that other Indonesian simply don't give a damn.

And no we don't have Area 51 in Vietnam but we use it to so that even monkeys with basic brain could comprehend the phrase "military secrecy". "Tactical reason for using social media"...right... right...as in "The Papua rebels receive training from the US Navy SEAL and have ultra modern rifles. That is the reason why our elite Kopassus got toasted in a firefight against them"

TNI goes from the most hated during the suharto period to the most loved institution after the reformation because of the smart use of social media

Correction. People still hate your army, you simply fail to notice them Want to prove my point? Go to Papua and scream "The TNI is the most loved institution in the country". Guess how long does it take for someone to beat you to death for that kind of claim.

Vietnam on the other hand still stuck in a cold war mindset because they are afraid that people going to found out that the emperor have no clothes. The truth is everybody already know that vietnam fudge the numbers when it came to their military to show that they are larger than they actually are.

"everybody already know"? Who know beside you ? Sources, please. Wait. YOU HAVE NONE. Let's check out key points again:

• Indonesia is not the world and as if your onion represent the world

• You claim that we hold older vehicles in service to make us look bigger? That is funny coming from a country that still hold in service AMX-30, PT-76, BTR-40, BTR-50, Alvis Saladin,...and count everything toward their total amour vehicle.

• I must emphasize something: STOP WITH THE EVERYONE. The world give one fck about Indonesia, ok? You believe that all of your analyses are correct but where are the numbers? The pictures? The collaborations from experts? YOU HAVE NOTHING.

There is a old saying in my country when we deal with lawyers that could not present actual proof in court but keep speculating and waste everyone time: STOP BARKING LIKE A DOG, GET THE HELL OUTTA HERE AND MOVE ON WITH YOUR NOVELIST CAREER. I think that saying suit you perfectly

This again explain why vietnam can maintain a "large army" despite having a more smaller economy than Philippines or Thailand. It also explain the lack of transparency & why despite this is a military forum there's hardly any military contents. There's just absolutely no way vietnam can maintain that amount of armaments it claimed with the current economic, research & industrial output. Without cutting corners & lying about it. That's just common sense.

Again, you are SPECULATING. You have "common senses" of an amateur that know nothing about the VPA combat history, let alone present accurate analyses about our combat power. So your opinion mean JACK-S-H-I-T. Indonesian budget for the army? 8.18 billion US dollar in 2017. The Vietnam People Army? 7.8 billion US dollar and that was from 2013. Please, don't assume that our army always perform worse than you as Indonesia is the one that experience troubles with terrorists and rebels, not us. FIELD PERFORMANCE is always the deciding factor while judging the ability of an army. Period.

The hundreds thousands of dead vietnamese & russian during ww2 might have something else to say about that. Politics is not military. The situation on the ground are completely different than the one on the desk. The soviet systems of central planning are not meant to win war they are meant to keep the communist party in place, winning the war is a secondary concerns. And If central committee planning is so good why did the russian decided to replace it with a more flexible western systems by 2030? Clearly even they see the communist military planning are outdated by today standard. Every vietnamese soldiers whenever they ask for artillery support or reinforcement have to pass it on to the chain of command until they can find someone with the proper authorization. In the west & TNI a squad can order a strike or retreat without needing it to be approved by bureaucrats 1st hand. That's why western army always have less casualties compared to those in the east. Also you guys didn't win alone you got china & the USSR to thank you for that.

"If it ain't broke, why fix it?" You guys also died in droves back in the fight against the British and the Dutch, remember? Our system got refined through ACTUAL wars, not hunt for small times rebels. Sure we take experience, supplies and equipment from the Chinese and the Soviet but don't tell you me you Indonesian manage everything without aid from the West in the last century? Because that would be hilarious.

And sure, a brave squad of Indonesian sallies out without having to report to anyone only come back in 3 coffins. Great :b

Also a fun fact. The TNI spends more on their dog units than the VPA spends on their grunts.

So does that mean. That Dogs>VPA?

Again, no number to compare but hey, more fun fact: VPA, an army that receive less fund than dogs in the TNI manage to keep peace in Vietnam while TNI soldiers fail to do the same in Indonesia. In fact, TNI let their beloved country ravage by terrorists, rebels, pirates,... for decades after decades.

So does that mean: TNI dog>VPA>TNI soldiers. What would you call soldiers that perform worse than someone that receive less fund than dogs? TNI soldiers (including the Kopassus) equal DOG-SHIETS, perhaps?

Most of your air defense are outdated soviet craps. Remember monkey model? That kind of air defense didn't help much in syria now does it.

Sorry to burst your bubble but there are different export variants. T-72s for Iraq are inferior to T-72s for East German. Vietnam is a long time partner of Russia so we get far better stuff than ordinary customers like Indonesia.As if Russia is willing to sell you good stuff when you ask to pay for the purchase with palm oil. PALM. OIL. LOL. You have any plan to trade Indonesian cows for future purchases? Because we have spare cows in our ranches and we could sell them to you for a cheap price.

Moreover, don't tell me your air force is as good as the Israeli when it come to air defense suppression because you guys don't have actual SAM to practice mock attacks. You guys don't even have specialized anti-radiation missiles to targets our radar. AS IF YOUR PLANE COULD SURVIVE PUSHING THROUGH OUR SAM UMBRELLA.

Our pilots have clocked in more hours than the VN pilots. I think they can handle it.

"You think?" No your opinion is TRASH. In war, we talk about real capability, you don't "think". You have no SAM. you have no anti ship missile. You have no experience in air defense suppression.

Conclusion: YOU HAVE ZERO CHANCE OF WINNING OVER OUR BASES, either airbase or navy base.

Not to mention we have the more advanced martadina & nagapass class to help out.

Good, an aerial slaughter require some audience after all. After we finish with your jets, maybe we would feel kind enough to let the Indonesian Navy fish the wet, dejected and crumbling Indonesian pilots our of the water. However, we might feel a bit evil and promptly finish everything through a salvo of anti ship missiles. Afterward, we shall ransom their rotten bodies back to Jakarta and get more money to get more stuff to kill more Indonesian in the future. The war would go on until the Papua overthrow your government, sign us a peace treaty and the Vietnamese go home happy and our pockets filled with cash.