Vietnam Defence Forum

[Viet]

Ancient times are a bit different than present times. The Vietnamese navy CAN'T go par on par with the chinese navy. The Vietnamese navy can only play a defensive role. If Vietnam's economy were to be 20 times the size of the present economy, then Vietnam can try to go on a par with china.

Destroyers will not make much difference at all, they will just be big targets that the chinese will love to sink.

Vietnam needs a balanced navy and a heavy frigate (4500 tons) tailored for the air defense role with Aster 15 / 30, but still multi role with full ASW capability fits very well in that balanced navy. It will provide fleet air defense. It will probably cost $500-600 million.

Destroyers are mainly for air defense these days and they are usually multirole. I fail to see what new capability a destroyer will bring with respect to the heavy frigate other than some extra VLS cells. A destroyer is a duplication once you have the heavy frigates. An expensive duplication that will cost at least 1 billion, so what's the point?

Air defense destroyers are for fleet air defense in distant waters (power projection) or for base / land air defense as the Japanese AEGIS destroyers are often used to protect Japanese territory from ballistic missiles. Vietnam has S-300/400 for that role which is better and cheaper. Fleet air defense will be done by the heavy frigates. Power projection far from home is something that VN does not need. So what's the point for those destroyers? What are they going to do?

Vietnam deploys 1 destroyer, the chinese deploy 10.
What about the chinese cruisers and aircraft carriers? Is Vietnam also going to build those types?

China is building the Type 55 cruiser, that thing is a monster, even bigger than American cruisers.
How is the Vietnamese destroyer going to survive against them?
How is the Vietnamese destroyer going to survive against chinese aircraft carrier battle groups?
How is the Vietnamese destroyer going to survive against the many chinese subs running around (around 60)?
How is the Vietnamese destroyer going to survive against a heavy air attack with missile saturation?

Vietnamese destroyer = Nice big, juicy target for the chinese.

Vietnam has limited resources so it needs to spend the money wisely on weapon systems that have the most bang for the dollar. That means aircraft, missiles and subs. Period.

In the battle between anti ship missiles and a ship's air defenses, the missile wins. Supersonic missiles are the way to go, they are difficult to intercept. A saturation missile attack will ALWAYS DESTROY ANY SHIP. An air defense destroyer can only intercept so many missiles at the same time and furthermore, what about when it runs out of missiles?

A SU-34 with 3 Brahmos missiles (later with Brahmos-2 hypersonic) is the way to go.
SU-34=$35 million plus 3 Brahmos at 5 million each for the latest version = $50 million.
That $50 million package can sink your billion dollar destroyer.

Aircraft with the right missiles can challenge the chinese navy. Vietnamese surface ships can only be useful in a defensive role or against a light threat. If the chinese navy sends a whole fleet to the Spratlys, the Viet navy has to stay in port, otherwise it will not survive.

Surface ships can't hide. In a conflict, chinese satellites will monitor the Viet naval bases and will track any ship that leaves port. China has good stand off targeting and launching platforms such as the H-6 bombers armed with long range cruise missiles (2000 km+).

Submarines on the other hand, can challenge the chinese navy. The $300 million Kilo can sink anything including aircraft carriers. Old chinese subs have surfaced next to american aircraft carriers totally undetected in the past.

Unlike surface ships, subs can hide, they are very difficult to detect.

That's why I say that the money needs to go into aircraft, missiles and subs, not destroyers.



Very correct, good to see that someone understands.

Once Vietnam develops standoff surveillance and targeting capabilities (satellites, etc), then can use land based long range missiles (up to 1000 km) and it can target anything in the Spratlys.
Armed drones also.

you always destroy my dream of having destroyers for our navy

The SU-34 is a beast man, best tactical bomber in the world today (not including heavy bombers).

I know one SU-34 was even brought to Vietnam for testing, but didn't hear any more.

bro, christmas comes again
anyone heard of Yak-130 that are destined for VN?

 

[kaku1]

Are you sure is 3 Brahmos? I used to read about the MK-1 being modified to carry just one under the mainframe, the missiles are too heavy for the wings. The SU-34 was designed from scratch for 3.

View attachment 191588

Nope, a single BrahMos-A would be carried by SU-30MKI, which can be configured in different profiles and longer range upto 500 km.

But, the lighter version, BrahMos-M with 290 km only can be carried in set of 3 with SU-30MKI,Rafael and MiG-29. Also a single BrahMos M would be carried by tejas.

 

[Carlosa]

You persuaded me about Su-34. Su-34 are for Yakhont/Brahmos missile air launchers. And both of them is available to Vietnam.

Model Su-30 MKI with 3 Brahmos-M]

Yes, Brahmos-M is much smaller than regular Brahmos, you can see both in this pic:

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Yes, Brahmos-M is much smaller than regular Brahmos, you can see both in this pic:

View attachment 191643

didnt vietnam buy russian yakhont itself>?

Nope, a single BrahMos-A would be carried by SU-30MKI, which can be configured in different profiles and longer range upto 500 km.

But, the lighter version, BrahMos-M with 290 km only can be carried in set of 3 with SU-30MKI,Rafael and MiG-29. Also a single BrahMos M would be carried by tejas.

MTRC ... russia cant sell missiles over 300km km to india.

 

[Carlosa]

you always destroy my dream of having destroyers for our navy


bro, christmas comes again
anyone heard of Yak-130 that are destined for VN?
View attachment 191610

Sorry bro, but have to be realistic, going against china is not an easy thing, need to have the right stuff, the heavy frigate will do, just think of it like a small destroyer. Actually, Vietnam will probably call them destroyers.

Frankly, I think VN is ordering too many ships but not enough aircraft.

Some Yak-130s are on order but I don't know the schedule.

didnt vietnam buy russian yakhont itself>.

Yes, for coastal defense, but Brahmos is much better than Yakhont.

 

[kaku1]

MTRC ... russia cant sell missiles over 300km km to india.

Jus wait for Dec 2015, btw if we say, India is already an unofficial member of MTCR.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Jus wait for Dec 2015, btw if we say, India is already an unofficial member of MTCR.

Nor is Pak a member of MTCR .. but no country can export missiles with a range of over 300km.

 

[kaku1]

Nor is Pak a member of MTCR .. but no country can export missiles with a range of over 300km.

I already said the 500km range is of Block 3, not of previous versions. And its not official at all, it become official only after India sign the MTCR.

BTW, if you call MTCR as hard and fast rule for export regime, then how USA exporting Trident to UK?

And one more thing MTCR is regime, not a treaty.

 

[Carlosa]

Nor is Pak a member of MTCR .. but no country can export missiles with a range of over 300km.

Russia is not exporting the missiles to India, India is making them, not the same thing. MTCR limitations don't apply to self production of missiles.

 

[Aepsilons]

Sorry bro, but have to be realistic, going against china is not an easy thing, need to have the right stuff, the heavy frigate will do, just think of it like a small destroyer.

Frankly, I think VN is ordering too many ships but not enough aircraft.

Some Yak-130s are on order but I don't know the schedule.

What about S400 batteries? How many does Vietnam have fielded?

 

[Carlosa]

What about S400 batteries? How many does Vietnam have fielded?

The first 2 coming this year, what is fielded is 2 S-300PMU-2.

 

[Aepsilons]

Yes, that's a nice ship. For all practical considerations, it can be considered a destroyer or almost a destroyer.
The Sachsen class has 1 Mark 41 VLS system, a big destroyer can have 2, not much difference other than that.

The future Viet heavy frigate will most likely have a very similar capability to the Sachsen class, using also the Smart-L radar, but using Aster missiles instead of the AEGIS missiles.

Precisely, it can be considered a light destroyer, i mean, it already has the firepower of one.

Another beautiful (yet Powerful) ship is the Bazan Class of the Spanish Navy. Its bristling in air defense capabilities.

 

[kaku1]

What about S400 batteries? How many does Vietnam have fielded?

I dont know, but India never accepted S300, S400 system, it never met Indian Forces requirement. Dont know about the problems, but thats true. India never likes the S-series. Instead want to go with Israel.

 

[Aepsilons]

The first 2 coming this year, what is fielded is 2 S-300PMU-2.

Ah, good development. You guys should expand that and hopefully purchase an additional 4-5. Ideal would be to have 4 batteries in the North, and perhaps 2 throughout the south.

 

[kaku1]

Precisely, it can be considered a light destroyer, i mean, it already has the firepower of one.

Another beautiful (yet Powerful) ship is the Bazan Class of the Spanish Navy. Its bristling in air defense capabilities.

View attachment 191648

what about this.

I tell you, advanced version of this is most suitable for VN as light frigate.