Vietnam Defence Forum

[William Hung]

The plot thickens, I just asked the source at comcom and they replied that they don't think that the second batch of Gepards have the Shtil, maybe have a beefed up version of the Palma. I told them how then can justify the price of the ship at $350 million. I'll see what they'll reply and post it here.

Is it really $350mil? thats too much for a Gepard. $350million is the price of a modern European light frigate/corvette. Someone received a special envelop? lol

Yes, very true about the Indian T-90, they use western sensors / fire control system (actually, the Russians had started to buy that for their own tanks also).

@Indos, can you send me a PM bro? I think you can help @madokafc confirm that the T-72 and T-90s rumours are true.

Darn, this is intriguing man.

How about a heavy bomber? Hypersonic missiles like the Brahmos 2 at mach 5 minimum?

Let's just say, if you read the report, you will not believe it yourself. And I don't think it is possible to have it within the next 5 years, if possible at all.

OK I'm logging out now bro.

 

[Echo_419]

wow I am impressed. are you vietnamese? no foreigner could have translated in a good manner. how is the paper credibility? here are some key points from the paper:

VN defence budget:
2014: $6.7b
2015: $7.7b
2019: $11.1b

Cambodia:
border violation.

China:
South China Sea dispute.

America:
VN is interested in P-3 Orion and C-130 turboprop.

Russsia:
VN gets help in manufacturing UAV.
4 more Gepards instead of 2, all to be delivered in 2017.

France:
VN in negotiation for helicopters, missiles.

India:
VN in negotiation for T-72 and T-90 tanks.

Indonesia, Italy, Sweden, England, S Korea and India:
VN increasingly defence cooperations

Netherland:
2 (Sigmar?) modular warships built by Vietnam.



according to the state media "voice of vietnam", we have ordered 4 more gepards. bringen the total number to 6. so the report seems to acknowledge this rumour.

Vietnam purchases two more Russian frigates | VOV Online Newspaper

Russia & India are working on a Plane similar to C-130 will be a lot cheaper & will have no strings attached & when are you looking to buy C-130 type of planes

That's only if the Elbit contract is for VietNam.
What if that contract was for Cambodia?

BTW, who was involved in the T-55M3 project? if it was IMI, then it means that the Elbit contract is not for the Viet T-55/54.




The report said VN will start to use public tender for weapons procurement so there will be less guessing game for you and Viet.



Stronger than that.



It said the latest order will have Shtil. But I don't know whether the "latest order" include the current 2 Gepards under construction or just the future 5th and 6th Gepards.



No, it didn't say that. But it did say that VietNam and India will collaborate to produce weapons for themselves and for the export market. I don't know which weapons they are planning.

BTW, the original T-90s from Russia wasn't suitable for the hot Indian climate so India had to develop it's own air conditioning system for the T-90s. Plus India had experimented their own sensors/FCS on the T-90s and said their one was more superior than the original Russian sensors, so it would make alot of sense for VietNam to prefer the Indian T-90s.

@Echo_419, @kaku1, @sreekumar, @Water Car Engineer, etc, can you confirm this?

If Russia & Vietnam can reach a understanding that Vietnam wants some Indian systems on their T-90 their will be no problems from our side

 

[kaku1]

That's only if the Elbit contract is for VietNam.
What if that contract was for Cambodia?

BTW, who was involved in the T-55M3 project? if it was IMI, then it means that the Elbit contract is not for the Viet T-55/54.

There may be possibility if India lobby for Vietnam. It can provide sensors and radars, I dont know why the Vietnam didnt chooses MF-STAR with Barak-8 for SIGMA.

See, the new corvettes Israel is planning.

One, thing more, that VN require to standardize its weapon system like in SIGMA OTO Malera 76mm gun, and in Gepard it using Ak-176.

That can cause maintenance problem.

No, it didn't say that. But it did say that VietNam and India will collaborate to produce weapons for themselves and for the export market. I don't know which weapons they are planning.

Possibly Vietnam can join LCH, Rustom-H HALE UAV, Rustom UCAV and HELINA .LCH Rustom-H and HELINA is in final stage of completion, Vietnam can choose its sensor, and with help of India modify it. And get ToT for that. And can import some HAL Rudra directly.

Light Attack Helicopter and UAV going to need for checking the whole EEZ and Chinese activities in SCS. Intelligence is now biggest warfare.

One more thing, Vietnam can join IRNSS project and request to launch one more sat by which Vietnam able to use navigation on military grade.

BTW, the original T-90s from Russia wasn't suitable for the hot Indian climate so India had to develop it's own air conditioning system for the T-90s. Plus India had experimented their own sensors/FCS on the T-90s and said their one was more superior than the original Russian sensors, so it would make alot of sense for VietNam to prefer the Indian T-90s.

@Echo_419, @kaku1, @sreekumar, @Water Car Engineer, etc, can you confirm this?

Yes thats correct, the T-90 Bhisma is Indian version. BEL and Israeli electronics, new fire control system etc.

Thats problem with every russian military component, in First batch of Talwar, the Kashtan CIWS was used, but IN was so much unsatisfied that they switch back to Ak-630.

 

[Nike]

I think it is very correct about Indian T-72 and T-90 using some western and indigenous components. But i will doubt if India can sell their Bhisma to another foreign countries as the license is just for domestic use, not including export license. Except, if India sell their second hand units like their Ajeeyas (T-72)

 

[Carlosa]

Is it really $350mil? thats too much for a Gepard. $350million is the price of a modern European light frigate/corvette. Someone received a special envelop? lol.

The $350 million thing came from comcom, they are usually right, but I just don't see what is there to justify the price, I'm waiting for more info from them.

Yes, its definitely a high price for a Gepard, I was thinking the same thing about "black envelops" as they are called in Vietnam.

I think it is very correct about Indian T-72 and T-90 using some western and indigenous components. But i will doubt if India can sell their Bhisma to another foreign countries as the license is just for domestic use, not including export license. Except, if India sell their second hand units like their Ajeeyas (T-72)

But how do you know that the license has not being negotiated with Russia to allow the export to VN?

I

Let's just say, if you read the report, you will not believe it yourself. And I don't think it is possible to have it within the next 5 years, if possible at all.
OK I'm logging out now bro.

You still insist in making me wait and suffer huh?
Darn, what is it? Tactical nuclear weapons, high power lasers, particle bean weapons, photon torpedoes, second hand aircraft carriers, the starship Enterprise?

There may be possibility if India lobby for Vietnam. It can provide sensors and radars, I dont know why the Vietnam didnt chooses MF-STAR with Barak-8 for SIGMA..

I don't know man, Black flag and I, we are fans of the Barak 8 with either Israeli or French radars (Smart S or Smart L) which are way better than the radars in the Gepard.

VN should buy the Oto Melara 76mm made in India under Italian license and make it the new standard gun.

 

[kaku1]

I don't know man, Black flag and I, we are fans of the Barak 8 with either Israeli or French radars (Smart S or Smart L) which are way better than the radars in the Gepard.

Yes, I dont know how the hell the cost skyrocketed to $350 mn a ship, without any good air search radar and aster.
VN can ask Netherlands about Aster, like how the french accommodated in Formidable class, or instead go for Formidable, the best estimate is that Singapore spent 1.4 bn for 4 Formidable . Aster will be game changer in SCS.

 

[Carlosa]

Is it really $350mil? thats too much for a Gepard. $350million is the price of a modern European light frigate/corvette. Someone received a special envelop? lol.

@Viet The source at comcom replied to me that the reason for the $350 million for the Gepard is that it has a Reduct VLS system. The Reduct VLS can be used with the KH-35 and other missiles; its a 16 cell system. I'm trying to find out what missile gets used there.

There is a possibility that the Gepards carry the Kinzhai missiles for air defense (naval version of the Tor).

 

[kaku1]

@Viet The source at comcom replied to me that the reason for the $350 million for the Gepard is that it has a Reduct VLS system. The Reduct VLS can be used with the KH-35 and other missiles; its a 16 cell system. I'm trying to find out what missile gets used there.

Bloody hell, so much cost for just VLS system, and even not of weapon system?

A whole shivalik was constructed with weapon system in $350 mn.

 

[Carlosa]

Bloody hell, so much cost for just VLS system, and even not of weapon system?

A whole shivalik was constructed with weapon system in $350 mn.

I agree, I'm trying to get more details that can explain the cost.
There is a possibility that the Gepards carry the Kinzhai missiles for air defense (naval version of the Tor).

 

[William Hung]

I think it is very correct about Indian T-72 and T-90 using some western and indigenous components. But i will doubt if India can sell their Bhisma to another foreign countries as the license is just for domestic use, not including export license. Except, if India sell their second hand units like their Ajeeyas (T-72)

OK I will try to get someone you trust to confirm this report about T-72 and Indian T-90s:

@Nihonjin1051 bro, do you have access to BMI (business monitor international) reports? (they should be available from your University's online database). If you do, can you please check out the "Vietnam defence & Security Report Q1 2015" and confirm to our dear @madokafc that the report does mention the 480 T-72 and Indian T-90s obtained by VietNam?

Thanks mate.

@Viet The source at comcom replied to me that the reason for the $350 million for the Gepard is that it has a Reduct VLS system. The Reduct VLS can be used with the KH-35 and other missiles; its a 16 cell system. I'm trying to find out what missile gets used there.

There is a possibility that the Gepards carry the Kinzhai missiles for air defense (naval version of the Tor).

That's hard to believe. I don't think the Gepards even has enough space for a 16 cell VLS.

Russia & India are working on a Plane similar to C-130 will be a lot cheaper & will have no strings attached & when are you looking to buy C-130 type of planes

If Russia & Vietnam can reach a understanding that Vietnam wants some Indian systems on their T-90 their will be no problems from our side.

If they are interested in C-130, then they might go for the second hand ones for lower cost.

Possibly Vietnam can join LCH, Rustom-H HALE UAV, Rustom UCAV and HELINA .LCH Rustom-H and HELINA is in final stage of completion, Vietnam can choose its sensor, and with help of India modify it. And get ToT for that. And can import some HAL Rudra directly.

Light Attack Helicopter and UAV going to need for checking the whole EEZ and Chinese activities in SCS. Intelligence is now biggest warfare.

One more thing, Vietnam can join IRNSS project and request to launch one more sat by which Vietnam able to use navigation on military grade.



Yes thats correct, the T-90 Bhisma is Indian version. BEL and Israeli electronics, new fire control system etc.

Thats problem with every russian military component, in First batch of Talwar, the Kashtan CIWS was used, but IN was so much unsatisfied that they switch back to Ak-630.

VietNam does not have the industrial base for a co-joint helicopter production program with India. But UAV production is very possible. I think you might be correct on that one. I think the report also "hinted" about missiles, if I read it correctly.

The report also mentioned that VN and India has reached a "preliminary" agreement for BrahMos sales.

Yes, its definitely a high price for a Gepard, I was thinking the same thing about "black envelops" as they are called in Vietnam.

If that price is correct, then it must be a really thick envelope!!!

You still insist in making me wait and suffer huh?
Darn, what is it? Tactical nuclear weapons, high power lasers, particle bean weapons, photon torpedoes, second hand aircraft carriers, the starship Enterprise?

I think I'll leave it as a mystery for now.

 

[kangaroo]

You still insist in making me wait and suffer huh?
Darn, what is it? Tactical nuclear weapons, high power lasers, particle bean weapons, photon torpedoes, second hand aircraft carriers, the starship Enterprise?



hi guys, im new here. have been lurking for a while and reading very interesting things from this forum. now that i got my hands on the report, regarding the weapon Blackflag mentioned, it will be a long run before we see any progress. probably at least 10 years as the fundamental project required for this weapon wont be started until 2017.
so you can google all the upcoming projects in vietnam!!!!!

 

[William Hung]

hi guys, im new here. have been lurking for a while and reading very interesting things from this forum. now that i got my hands on the report, regarding the weapon Blackflag mentioned, it will be a long run before we see any progress. probably at least 10 years as the fundamental project required for this weapon wont be started until 2017.
so you can google all the upcoming projects in vietnam!!!!!

Hey welcome bro!

Are you referring to the weapon mentioned in page 33 in the report? Let's just keep that weapon a mystery here for now.

Let's just say, Vietnam will not, in my opinion, be able to have it up and running within the next 10 years, so members here should not be too anxious about it. I don't even know why the analysts were "expecting" it (unless theyre expecting uncle Sam to assist?).

OK, I gotta log out.

 

[Carlosa]

kangaroo friend, saved me from my misery and tell me about that weapon, can you?

OK I will try to get someone you trust to confirm this report about T-72 and Indian T-90s:

@Nihonjin1051 bro, do you have access to BMI (business monitor international) reports? (they should be available from your University's online database). If you do, can you please check out the "Vietnam defence & Security Report Q1 2015" and confirm to our dear @madokafc that the report does mention the 480 T-72 and Indian T-90s obtained by VietNam?.

Its a waste of time to ask madokafc, she doesn't understand how these things work in Vietnam. When I said recently that VN has T-72 and T-90 she said that i was having a wet dream and anyway, she doesn't have sources to confirm what Vietnam has or not.

 

[William Hung]

kangaroo friend, saved me from my misery and tell me about that weapon, can you?



Its a waste of time to ask madokafc, she doesn't understand how these things work in Vietnam. When I said recently that VN has T-72 and T-90 she said that i was having a wet dream and anyway, she doesn't have sources to confirm what Vietnam has or not.

To be honest, that claim about T-90s from India is quite weird. I've previously read online a few rumors or Russian news site about the 500 or 480 T-72, even about the possibility of T-90s purchases. But this is the first time I've read that the T-90s are obtained from India. This info cannot be found on the internet, so I guess they got it from someone offline, like company officials or something.

 

[Carlosa]

That's hard to believe. I don't think the Gepards even has enough space for a 16 cell VLS.

The comcom source said that the redut vls is used for the 9M96E missile; that missile is part of the S-300 / 400 system, but I'm not aware of a naval system using just that missile, it might be a new development. The 9M96E is a medium range missile (40 km), flying altitude is 20 km.

The location for the reduct vls in the Gepard is where the Palma is in the first batch of Gepards.

To be honest, that claim about T-90s from India is quite weird. I've previously read online a few rumors or Russian news site about the 500 or 480 T-72, even about the possibility of T-90s purchases. But this is the first time I've read that the T-90s are obtained from India. This info cannot be found on the internet, so I guess they got it from someone offline, like company officials or something.

Makes sense, I see pretty solid hints about VN having the T-90; in comcom is already considered as a given.