Viability and the need for underground airbases for PAF.

[Imad.Khan]

If you read my post i mentioned the entrance flaw but there is not just one entrance but multiple one's and how did u figure they would be blocked for the duration of the war??, debris can be cleared and entrance made operational in a matter of hours or couple of days using heavy machinery and all in all a couple days delay beats loosing multiple assets on the ground forever and there is a difference between expense determination and necessity. Airpower is a strategic asset just like nukes in a war, if we can build such bases for our nukes we can definately do so for our aircraft, its not like iam asking to protect tanks or apcs using underground bases. Without aircover one cannot fight a conventional war.

Well actually i said for the duration of the war or until the entrance is cleared, but that depends on the extent of the damage. I agree that airpower is a strategic asset, infact i will go a step forward and say its more important than nuclear assets. So i agree with you that maybe Pakistan should look into it but it will be very costly and i would prefer for the time being in getting more air assets instead of this.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

I love this idea.
I had been thi king about it for some time.
We have ample mountain ranges in all provinces.
Balochistan, Punjab, KPK all could be covered except maybe Sindh.
The service arms that should be receiving most attention ie Air Force & Navy are neglected.
Few of these would be very very effective force multiplier.
We have already seen how air assets can be vulnerable on the ground.
P.S
I was gonna start this thread long time ago. But I would have been hounded off the thread by the pessimistic grinch who says Hi in every post

 

[undercover JIX]

What I understand and know is, we already since long time, have reinforced hangers for our fighters. most of our Air bases are in plain areas.. This could be used for our next generation fighters, may be our strategic planners do not see the need to use mountains. may be operational challenges.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

When need arised we developed NBomb.
When need arrised we are developing AZM NGF
And these bases are very necessary after Kamra and PNS Mehran attacks

What I understand and know is, we already since long time, have reinforced hangers for our fighters. most of our Air bases are in plain areas.. This could be used for our next generation fighters, may be our strategic planners do not see the need to use mountains. may be operational challenges.

 

[Tps43]

We've always been outnumbered by IAF and yet have had the better of them on almost all ocasions but talking on purely technical and quantative grounds, PAF is doing the best they can with the resources they have, problem isnt the will or policy but the budget gap between Pakistan and India, they field a budget of over 50 billion usd while we have to do with just 9 billion usd. If we want more assets or rapid modernization we have to get rid of corrupt politician thugs and bring the billions of dollars sitting in swiss accounts back home.


Sorry, didnt get you??


If you read my post i mentioned the entrance flaw but there is not just one entrance but multiple one's and how did u figure they would be blocked for the duration of the war??, debris can be cleared and entrance made operational in a matter of hours or couple of days using heavy machinery and all in all a couple days delay beats loosing multiple assets on the ground forever and there is a difference between expense determination and necessity. Airpower is a strategic asset just like nukes in a war, if we can build such bases for our nukes we can definately do so for our aircraft, its not like iam asking to protect tanks or apcs using underground bases. Without aircover one cannot fight a conventional war.

Ask some one in Paf where is minhas's Base cmndr's office?

 

[undercover JIX]

When need arised we developed NBomb.
When need arrised we are developing AZM NGF
And these bases are very necessary after Kamra and PNS Mehran attacks

Yes, zarorat aijad ki maa hai.

What i would like to think is, threats posed to us from all around are so over whelming that we are struggling to occupied with achieving and adapting minimum deterrence to discourage aggressors. it is because of our limited resources. who will not want to have all the tech and weapons available in the world but we are surrounded, hence the need of Nasr.

 

[TOPGUN]

From 1947 - 1990 PAF had exclusive access to USA aircraft and training . Hence the PAF could go head on with much larger IAF equipped with Russian & british planes. PAF had better training and tactics.

This has changed and now is tilted far more in IAF favour . The Indians have huge exposure to training , tactics and doctrine from excercises with USA France RAF and Israel. They also have better more advanced systems be it planes . Sams , Awacs or radars . There is no doubt today IAF is far better prepared even allowing for the MIG legacy and modernisation plans crawling at snails pace.

Regarding you point about Money in swiss accounts it will not make a difference in short or long term .
The Indians have a enormous GDP which will not go away and the gap in spending will grow .
Military power /spending is driven by GDP/ money and in this regard PAF will never even come close to matching indian budgets now or even in 30 years

PAF has more training exercises with nations then the IAF you need to do some homework , plus one can not compare the two forces given the budget, resources, man power and modern aircraft the IAF is for sure done well for its self. PAF is well on its way to be a better and more advanced AF then it is at the present time or ever was times have changed and so has the neighborhood also do some homework on that. Finally PAF is a defensive force and will and shall remain that however, in case of war the tables can turn with a truly dangerous punch don't ever doubt that for a second.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

In any conflict air power alone is the most deadly weapon.

US ki tamam badmashiyan air power k zor par chal rahi hain!!!!

Yes, zarorat aijad ki maa hai.

What i would like to think is, threats posed to us from all around are so over whelming that we are struggling to occupied with achieving and adapting minimum deterrence to discourage aggressors. it is because of our limited resources. who will not want to have all the tech and weapons available in the world but we are surrounded, hence the need of Nasr.

 

[undercover JIX]

In any conflict air power alone is the most deadly weapon.

US ki tamam badmashiyan air power k zor par chal rahi hain!!!!

Durust farmaya huzoor ne.

unfortunately economical and technological resources available to badmashiya are not comparable to ours. we are doing our best withing our limited resources and with the help of friends. Who will not want to have everything but we have see our pocket and make best out of it.

No doubt, we could do better if our leaders are visionary.

 

[Last Samuri]

PAF has more training exercises with nations then the IAF you need to do some homework , plus one can not compare the two forces given the budget, resources, man power and modern aircraft the IAF is for sure done well for its self. PAF is well on its way to be a better and more advanced AF then it is at the present time or ever was times have changed and so has the neighborhood also do some homework on that. Finally PAF is a defensive force and will and shall remain that however, in case of war the tables can turn with a truly dangerous punch don't ever doubt that for a second.

I can only talk about what I see in the News and what we read about.

I am not sure if I have seen PAF in UK or In France

But IAF have just returned from Israel

Indradush is a bi annual excercise with RAF typhoon v Su30mki

And we all aware of the Cope Excercises & Red Flag with USA.

And of Course the RSAF has based contingent of F16C in India

I am not demeaning your Air Force or your training BUT it very obvious that Indians are training regularly with USA RAF ISRAEL & FRANCE & SINGPORE F16/50 PILOTS

The exposure is Huge

The INDIANS seem far better prepared

 

[Awan68]

Ask some one in Paf where is minhas's Base cmndr's office?

Ask some one in Paf where is minhas's Base cmndr's office?

I would've loved it if u had posed the question as ask some in PAF where the underground hangers of black panthers are.

From 1947 - 1990 PAF had exclusive access to USA aircraft and training . Hence the PAF could go head on with much larger IAF equipped with Russian & british planes. PAF had better training and tactics.

This has changed and now is tilted far more in IAF favour . The Indians have huge exposure to training , tactics and doctrine from excercises with USA France RAF and Israel. They also have better more advanced systems be it planes . Sams , Awacs or radars . There is no doubt today IAF is far better prepared even allowing for the MIG legacy and modernisation plans crawling at snails pace.

Regarding you point about Money in swiss accounts it will not make a difference in short or long term .
The Indians have a enormous GDP which will not go away and the gap in spending will grow .
Military power /spending is driven by GDP/ money and in this regard PAF will never even come close to matching indian budgets now or even in 30 years

PAF has more exposure to international airforces and since long ago we are beyond the stage of relying on others for new tactics and innivations, we are inventors in our own domains in this regard and the status of Pakistani pilots to be the one of the very best in the world speaks for itself. Indian AF can never hope to counter the skill of our pilots even after 30 yrs, its built on 70 years of excellence, experiance and the fact of bieng one of the best for over 7 decades.
Pakistan is way way ahead of India in domestic aircraft manufacturing, PAF has almost churned out 100 domestic built fighters while Indian tejas project has yet to sell even one to thier own airforce. Jf 17 block 3 is slated to enter production in late 2018 with a lot of advanced goodies rivaling any 4.5 gen out there while India is spending billions buying little batches of foriegn platforms.
Pakistan has announced inhouse 5th gen programme which is slated to deliver by 2023 while India is still fighting with the Russian for tot which they are simply refusing to provide, didmt u hear thier deal of pak fa went dead recently.
The Pakistani money held in swiss banks and other places in shapes of assets is over 400 billion dollars, go figure.
Pakistani economy is kicking off with China vesting thier regional with us. In the future lets say 2030 we will be able to mantain maximum deterence or even designated offence in regard on any military budget India throws at us, our military budget has always been a fraction of the Indian one yet mysteriously our foot soldier is a hundred times better trained, experienced and better equipped than an Indian one and to top it all our domestic defence programs have achieved massive succes while most of Indian ones have failed, take missle tech for example, we are light years ahead of the bakht nation when it comes to missle tech.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

They spend highly on buying big ticket toys.
We concentrate more on building capacity of common soldier.

They knew they couldnt defeat us conventionally so they took to subversion and dirty state sponsored actors.

I would've loved it if u had posed the question as ask some in PAF where the underground hangers of black panthers are.


PAF has more exposure to international airforces and since long ago we are beyond the stage of relying on others for new tactics and innivations, we are inventors in our own domains in this regard and the status of Pakistani pilots to be the one of the very best in the world speaks for itself. Indian AF can never hope to counter the skill of our pilots even after 30 yrs, its built on 70 years of excellence, experiance and the fact of bieng one of the best for over 7 decades.
Pakistan is way way ahead of India in domestic aircraft manufacturing, PAF has almost churned out 100 domestic built fighters while Indian tejas project has yet to sell even one to thier own airforce. Jf 17 block 3 is slated to enter production in late 2018 with a lot of advanced goodies rivaling any 4.5 gen out there while India is spending billions buying little batches of foriegn platforms.
Pakistan has announced inhouse 5th gen programme which is slated to deliver by 2023 while India is still fighting with the Russian for tot which they are simply refusing to provide, didmt u hear thier deal of pak fa went dead recently.
The Pakistani money held in swiss banks and other places in shapes of assets is over 400 billion dollars, go figure.
Pakistani economy is kicking off with China vesting thier regional with us. In the future lets say 2030 we will be able to mantain maximum deterence or even designated offence in regard on any military budget India throws at us, our military budget has always been a fraction of the Indian one yet mysteriously our foot soldier is a hundred times better trained, experienced and better equipped than an Indian one and to top it all our domestic defence programs have achieved massive succes while most of Indian ones have failed, take missle tech for example, we are light years ahead of the bakht nation when it comes to missle tech.

 

[Last Samuri]

I would've loved it if u had posed the question as ask some in PAF where the underground hangers of black panthers are.


PAF has more exposure to international airforces and since long ago we are beyond the stage of relying on others for new tactics and innivations, we are inventors in our own domains in this regard and the status of Pakistani pilots to be the one of the very best in the world speaks for itself. Indian AF can never hope to counter the skill of our pilots even after 30 yrs, its built on 70 years of excellence, experiance and the fact of bieng one of the best for over 7 decades.
Pakistan is way way ahead of India in domestic aircraft manufacturing, PAF has almost churned out 100 domestic built fighters while Indian tejas project has yet to sell even one to thier own airforce. Jf 17 block 3 is slated to enter production in late 2018 with a lot of advanced goodies rivaling any 4th gen out there while India is spending billions buying little batches of foriegn platforms.
Pakistan has announced inhouse 5th gen programme which is slated to deliver by 2023 while India is still fighting with the Russian for tot which they are simply refusing to provide, didmt u hear thier deal of pak fa went dead recently.
The Pakistani money held in swiss banks and other places in shapes of assets is over 400 billion dollars, go figure.
Pakistani economy is kicking off with China vesting thier regional with us. In the future lets say 2030 we will be able to mantain maximum deterence or even designated offence in regard on any military budget India throws at us, our military budget has always been a fraction of the Indian one yet mysteriously our foot soldier is a hundred times better trained, experienced and better equipped than an Indian one and to top it all our domestic defence programs have achieved massive succes while most of Indian ones have failed, take missle tech for example, we are light years ahead of the bakht nation when it comes to missle tech.

That is in complete contrast to indian situation

Who cannot afford more 36 rafales
Have no money for PAK FA
And as you suggest only 5 Tejas LCA in its airforce

Su30mki is maintenance nitemare
And india pilots are clueless in relative terms to world class pilots of PAF

Your soldiers are better equipped and battle hardened

You really are painting a incredible positive picture of your military might

 

[Awan68]

That is in complete contrast to indian situation

Who cannot afford more 36 rafales
Have no money for PAK FA
And as you suggest only 5 Tejas LCA in its airforce

Su30mki is maintenance nitemare
And india pilots are clueless in relative terms to world class pilots of PAF

Your soldiers are better equipped and battle hardened

You really are painting a incredible positive picture of your military might

Nice to see you coming to ur senses, realisation of error is the first step indians need to take if they want to match Pakistan Army.

They spend highly on buying big ticket toys.
We concentrate more on building capacity of common soldier.

They knew they couldnt defeat us conventionally so they took to subversion and dirty state sponsored actors.

Exactly, even thier own defence minister accepted a while a go that our defence industry is more advanced than india, on another ocassion another one of their officials accepted that the three branches of Pakistan military are a lot better integrated than Indian military, their own analysts accept that Pakistan has always went for developing quality while India focused on quantity.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

It's not just an issue of funding in of itself, but Pakistan's lack of ability to make itself a better deal than India.

There are 'similarly structured' economies out there that are able to buy from France on credit lines, e.g. Egypt. However, Egypt doesn't have India as its neighbour, and its potential foe (i.e. Israel) is itself an aid recipient, so it doesn't as have much of a say on whether others choose to sell Egypt et. al equipment or not.

When I had asked some PAF people why the PAF wasn't getting 'X' or 'Y' (I have to keep this secret), they simply said, "We asked A for it, they said "No"" and "When we were negotiating with B, they said the gov't told them to stop the process." Whether it is India or the US, Pakistan's supply channels are have been squeezed quite a bit, and the only suppliers remaining are those governments willing to deal with Pakistan - e.g. China, Turkey, South Africa, Ukraine, etc. However, even their engagement is of varying degrees, probably China is the only one where standard and sensitive technology is both available, others are largely restricted to standard.

All that said, funding is also a problem. It's not so much that Pakistan is unable to generate it (it can), but societal corruption and incompetence, especially at the top, is a massive cost. Pakistan's financial situation is basically that of a father of four with three ex-wives, each claiming child support, and a bank mortgage still on the docket and never going away. Except in Pakistan's case, the enforcement maintaining the injustice is mostly Pakistan itself.