Viability and the need for underground airbases for PAF.

[Tps43]

With the tremendous progress of supersonic/hyper sonic cruise missles, long range standoff weapons, stealth aircraft and advanced EW measures in the past decade, open airbases are no longer as impenetrable as they used to be even with multiple layers of air defence and ultra hardened bunkers. The threat of saturation cruise missle attack, drone swarms and hard to pin down stealth fighters on airbases looms over PAF in the next war, positively crippling billions worth of strategic aerial assets on the ground.

It is common knowledge that many of our nuclear strategic assets are provided cover by deeply dug tunnels and underground bases in impenetrable mountain ranges, a solution to protect aerial strategic assets arises out of this strategy and we won't be the first one to do it. It has been noted that China has near 40 such underground airbases which are considered impenetrable by cruise missles or even direct aerial bombing. The most an enemy can do is bomb the entrances and block the way out for several hours, nothing more. Swiss airforce has also been known to be an adherent of this strategy and is known to have several underground air bases.

Three to four such underground airbases at strategic locations among mountain ranges would be a start and a perfect solution for PAF to avoid destruction of aerial assets on the ground. Innovation lies at the basis of military strategy. There is no such thing as a conventional or traditionalist approach when the defence of an entire nation is at stake. We don't have the massive defence industrial base that the Us or China enjoy. We simply cannot churn out new fighters quickly enough as the war progresses hence we will mainly have to fight with the assets we already have therefore we simply cannot afford to loose them on the ground.

PLA fighters enroute to their underground dispersion hanger.
View attachment 443437

Saab Viggen out of its underground dispersion hanger.
View attachment 443438

Spare engines for the Viggen and Draken fighters are visible in this shot along with a Draken fighter aircraft.
View attachment 443439

AS IF there ain't any !

 

[Mugwop]

**sighs**
Pls note here.
https://fas.org/blogs/security/2016/11/pakistan-nuclear-infrastructure/

Musaf Airbase, Masroor Airbase, have hardened underground shelters. As do other bases.

An an Air Force which is hidden in shelters in one that has already lost.

It's more like an advantage to me being undetected by spy satellites.

 

[Awan68]

Basically we as a nation have been feeding our badmaashiya for decades, Zardari-Nawaz-Altaf and their minions have robbed trillions of dollars but our so called retarded "experts" always target the defence budget. I have quote quite a few times how Golda Meir (Israeli PM) signed an expensive defence deal with USA over a simple cup of tea at her house when Israeli economy had been devastated by the war and when she was questioned by the opposition in Knesset (parliament of Israel), she said "I learned it from the Prophet (Peace be upon him) of Muslims. When he died there was no food in his home but there were nine of the best swords hanging on the walls of his clay cottages. The history does not remember how many eggs, breads and marmalade were available in the breakfast but remembers who many countries they conquered and how many battles and war they won."

We can learn from China as well.

Exactly, our enemies have learned from our prophet(pbuh) while we shamelessly shun his policies and decisions. A 9 billion dollar budget with the list of enemies we have is just criminal.

AS IF there ain't any !

Never heard of them.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Modernization is going okay, better than our nemesis actually, we are talking about better protecting our assets, not needlessly trolling PAF which seems to be a habit of jesters on this forum.

Please care to Explain me,the type of Modernization which is going on and would save us.
Adequate number of
4th Gen Fighters. NO
New Long Range SAM NO
New Aircraft of 4.5th Gen NO
New Strike Fighter NO
5th Gen Aircraft Acq Plan. NO
Now,Please elaborate,
How we are going to Pitch 160 to 170 4th Gen Aircrafts,in CAP,OCA,CAS,SEAD,DEAD,Recce,Interception etc
Roles when at same time our enemy would be deploying 300+ Aircraft better in terms of Range,Payload and Avionics that too backed by state of the Art SAMs?

 

[Tps43]

Exactly, our enemies have learned from our prophet(pbuh) while we shamelessly shun his policies and decisions. A 9 billion dollar budget with the list of enemies we have is just criminal.


Never heard of them.

Every thing is not public AFSC is there for a purpose.

 

[Awan68]

Please care to Explain me,the type of Modernization which is going on and would save us.
Adequate number of
4th Gen Fighters. NO
New Long Range SAM NO
New Aircraft of 4.5th Gen NO
New Strike Fighter NO
5th Gen Aircraft Acq Plan. NO
Now,Please elaborate,
How we are going to Pitch 160 to 170 4th Gen Aircrafts,in CAP,OCA,CAS,SEAD,DEAD,Recce,Interception etc
Roles when at same time our enemy would be deploying 300+ Aircraft better in terms of Range,Payload and Avionics that too backed by state of the Art SAMs?

4th gen fighter program jf 17 is progressing rapidly with block 3 in the pipeline slated to start production by late 2018 to cover 4.5 gen.
Long range sams, well we disclosed our medium range sams after having them for a long time, they definately would have hq 9's by now.
5th gen programm already launched with ACM announcing a production prototype by 2023 and we have other of the shelf options too for stop gaps while India is still picking at straws after thier deal with the russkies fell over.

Every thing is not public AFSC is there for a purpose.

It would be good if we have them but mostly they would be for the fighters designated to carry raad alcm.

 

[Sine Nomine]

4th gen fighter program jf 17 is progressing rapidly with block 3 in the pipeline slated to start production by late 2018 to cover 4.5 gen.
Long range sams, well we disclosed our medium range sams after having them for a long time, they definately would have hq 9's by now.
5th gen programm already launched with ACM announcing a production prototype by 2023 and we have other of the shelf options too for stop gaps while India is still picking at straws after thier deal with the russkies fell over.

JFT is always seen hanging Two or Three fuel tanks,meaning out of 7 hardpoints 3 very important or consumed,out of Around 4000kg Payload 2400 or 1600 is occupied by External Fuel,what it would do in that Profile?
If It's Production starts without integration of HMDS,HOBS Missile,AESA and solution of lack of internal fuel,then it's a failure,remember we have to replace 250 Aircrafts.
Pak Acquired HQ 16 and the next year showed it.
He announced without even showing a Mockup Model.
India Mere Bahi on the other hand has even today,got almost 350+ 4th Gen Fighters,backed by 400+ Mig21,27 and Jags.
We are really doing a huge mistake by neglecting our defence and feeding these Political Bastards.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

You cannot have an underground base---. Deep ground penetrating bombs will do more damage than if it was in a protected shelter on the surface.

 

[Awan68]

Hi,

You cannot have an underground base---. Deep ground penetrating bombs will do more damage than if it was in a protected shelter on the surface.

By underground i mean mountainsides, not plain terrain.

 

[Tps43]

4th gen fighter program jf 17 is progressing rapidly with block 3 in the pipeline slated to start production by late 2018 to cover 4.5 gen.
Long range sams, well we disclosed our medium range sams after having them for a long time, they definately would have hq 9's by now.
5th gen programm already launched with ACM announcing a production prototype by 2023 and we have other of the shelf options too for stop gaps while India is still picking at straws after thier deal with the russkies fell over.


It would be good if we have them but mostly they would be for the fighters designated to carry raad alcm.

they are what u want !

 

[war&peace]

Hi,

You cannot have an underground base---. Deep ground penetrating bombs will do more damage than if it was in a protected shelter on the surface.

Sir, it depends on how cleverly those are designed and how secret their location is kept. Furthermore, the layer and material decide how much deep a penetrator can go and damage. Away from the spying eyes of the reconnaissance satellites and A/Cs. It can be camouflaged to an extent that enemy will not be able to pin-point its location. Furthermore, the leading airforces of the world are using this technique to protect their assets.

 

[Imad.Khan]

With the tremendous progress of supersonic/hyper sonic cruise missles, long range standoff weapons, stealth aircraft and advanced EW measures in the past decade, open airbases are no longer as impenetrable as they used to be even with multiple layers of air defence and ultra hardened bunkers. The threat of saturation cruise missle attack, drone swarms and hard to pin down stealth fighters on airbases looms over PAF in the next war, positively crippling billions worth of strategic aerial assets on the ground.

It is common knowledge that many of our nuclear strategic assets are provided cover by deeply dug tunnels and underground bases in impenetrable mountain ranges, a solution to protect aerial strategic assets arises out of this strategy and we won't be the first one to do it. It has been noted that China has near 40 such underground airbases which are considered impenetrable by cruise missles or even direct aerial bombing. The most an enemy can do is bomb the entrances and block the way out for several hours, nothing more. Swiss airforce has also been known to be an adherent of this strategy and is known to have several underground air bases.

Three to four such underground airbases at strategic locations among mountain ranges would be a start and a perfect solution for PAF to avoid destruction of aerial assets on the ground. Innovation lies at the basis of military strategy. There is no such thing as a conventional or traditionalist approach when the defence of an entire nation is at stake. We don't have the massive defence industrial base that the Us or China enjoy. We simply cannot churn out new fighters quickly enough as the war progresses hence we will mainly have to fight with the assets we already have therefore we simply cannot afford to loose them on the ground.

PLA fighters enroute to their underground dispersion hanger.
View attachment 443437

Saab Viggen out of its underground dispersion hanger.
View attachment 443438

Spare engines for the Viggen and Draken fighters are visible in this shot along with a Draken fighter aircraft.
View attachment 443439

Well i am no expert, but in my opinion having an underground air base has one major flaw and that is in times of war the enemy only needs to destroy the entrance and all your planes will be out of action for the duration of war or until the entrance is fixed. Plus its going to be hugely expensive to make an underground hive.

 

[Awan68]

Please care to Explain me,the type of Modernization which is going on and would save us.
Adequate number of
4th Gen Fighters. NO
New Long Range SAM NO
New Aircraft of 4.5th Gen NO
New Strike Fighter NO
5th Gen Aircraft Acq Plan. NO
Now,Please elaborate,
How we are going to Pitch 160 to 170 4th Gen Aircrafts,in CAP,OCA,CAS,SEAD,DEAD,Recce,Interception etc
Roles when at same time our enemy would be deploying 300+ Aircraft better in terms of Range,Payload and Avionics that too backed by state of the Art SAMs?

We've always been outnumbered by IAF and yet have had the better of them on almost all ocasions but talking on purely technical and quantative grounds, PAF is doing the best they can with the resources they have, problem isnt the will or policy but the budget gap between Pakistan and India, they field a budget of over 50 billion usd while we have to do with just 9 billion usd. If we want more assets or rapid modernization we have to get rid of corrupt politician thugs and bring the billions of dollars sitting in swiss accounts back home.

they are what u want !

Sorry, didnt get you??

Well i am no expert, but in my opinion having an underground air base has one major flaw and that is in times of war the enemy only needs to destroy the entrance and all your planes will be out of action for the duration of war or until the entrance is fixed. Plus its going to be hugely expensive to make an underground hive.

If you read my post i mentioned the entrance flaw but there is not just one entrance but multiple one's and how did u figure they would be blocked for the duration of the war??, debris can be cleared and entrance made operational in a matter of hours or couple of days using heavy machinery and all in all a couple days delay beats loosing multiple assets on the ground forever and there is a difference between expense determination and necessity. Airpower is a strategic asset just like nukes in a war, if we can build such bases for our nukes we can definately do so for our aircraft, its not like iam asking to protect tanks or apcs using underground bases. Without aircover one cannot fight a conventional war.

 

[Maarkhoor]

With the tremendous progress of supersonic/hyper sonic cruise missles, long range standoff weapons, stealth aircraft and advanced EW measures in the past decade, open airbases are no longer as impenetrable as they used to be even with multiple layers of air defence and ultra hardened bunkers. The threat of saturation cruise missle attack, drone swarms and hard to pin down stealth fighters on airbases looms over PAF in the next war, positively crippling billions worth of strategic aerial assets on the ground.

It is common knowledge that many of our nuclear strategic assets are provided cover by deeply dug tunnels and underground bases in impenetrable mountain ranges, a solution to protect aerial strategic assets arises out of this strategy and we won't be the first one to do it. It has been noted that China has near 40 such underground airbases which are considered impenetrable by cruise missles or even direct aerial bombing. The most an enemy can do is bomb the entrances and block the way out for several hours, nothing more. Swiss airforce has also been known to be an adherent of this strategy and is known to have several underground air bases.

Three to four such underground airbases at strategic locations among mountain ranges would be a start and a perfect solution for PAF to avoid destruction of aerial assets on the ground. Innovation lies at the basis of military strategy. There is no such thing as a conventional or traditionalist approach when the defence of an entire nation is at stake. We don't have the massive defence industrial base that the Us or China enjoy. We simply cannot churn out new fighters quickly enough as the war progresses hence we will mainly have to fight with the assets we already have therefore we simply cannot afford to loose them on the ground.

PLA fighters enroute to their underground dispersion hanger.
View attachment 443437

Saab Viggen out of its underground dispersion hanger.
View attachment 443438

Spare engines for the Viggen and Draken fighters are visible in this shot along with a Draken fighter aircraft.
View attachment 443439

We do have such type of THINGS....

Hi,

You cannot have an underground base---. Deep ground penetrating bombs will do more damage than if it was in a protected shelter on the surface.

Especially when guided standoff weapons available, a single hit at exit do much more damage than jets parked in open.

 

[Last Samuri]

e've always been outnumbered by IAF and yet have had the better of them on almost all ocasions but talking on purely technical and quantative grounds, PAF is doing the best they can with the resources they have, problem isnt the will or policy but the budget gap between Pakistan and India, they field a budget of over 50 billion usd while we have to do with just 9 billion usd. If we want more assets or rapid modernization we have to get rid of corrupt politician thugs and bring the billions of dollars sitting in swiss accounts back home.

From 1947 - 1990 PAF had exclusive access to USA aircraft and training . Hence the PAF could go head on with much larger IAF equipped with Russian & british planes. PAF had better training and tactics.

This has changed and now is tilted far more in IAF favour . The Indians have huge exposure to training , tactics and doctrine from excercises with USA France RAF and Israel. They also have better more advanced systems be it planes . Sams , Awacs or radars . There is no doubt today IAF is far better prepared even allowing for the MIG legacy and modernisation plans crawling at snails pace.

Regarding you point about Money in swiss accounts it will not make a difference in short or long term .
The Indians have a enormous GDP which will not go away and the gap in spending will grow .
Military power /spending is driven by GDP/ money and in this regard PAF will never even come close to matching indian budgets now or even in 30 years