What's new

Vayu Calls JF17- A Game Changer.

True but dnt u think tht due to its small rcs it would be just a lil bit difficult to track in comparision to the massive rcs of su-30?

For individual planes, Yes, it will be .. But with a plane linked with an AWACS uplink, not so much.. Basically, a low RCS advantage is if the smaller plane is able to launch its BVR's before getting detected and fired upon by the bigger plane. Given the Radar strength of a SU 30 and the AWACS support, that may not be possible in this theater..
 
.
Reuben F. Johnson is an aerospace and defense writer based in Kiev.
 
.
read this from Karan

Yes, for both sides.. With heavy AWACS and MKI (remember Su 30 MKI can function as a mini AWACS in itself) coverage thru active radar, the low RCS factor will no longer play a big role.. A plane like JF17 will be painted much before any of its targets are in a BVR range..

your doubting IAF's decision!!
even now they haven't gone for gripen if small was good

Gripen definitely has a smaller RCS than the SU-30, but it can't cover a large area. They have a large landmass to cover, a smaller aircraft offers a smaller Radar Cross-Section, at the cost of also reducing the aircraft's range(due to a reduced amount of fuel).

Plus, it is standard practice to offer kick-backs to officials, and that also has some bearing on the decision, France is notorious for offering large kick-backs. AEW aircraft are prime targets in any war. The first move is to target the AEW, because you only have to take out a couple of aircraft and it has a substantial impact on the opponent. So it's better to compare aircraft, rather than bringing in the whole kitchen&sink.

Like it was said earlier, air-to-air combat scenarios where both aircraft would have AESA radars, modern AMRAAM/Amraamski missiles and comprehensive electronic-warfare suites is unprecedented. Both Pakistan and India's aircraft have that. Being a smaller aircraft, the Tejas and JF-17 carry fewer missiles than the SU-30(disadvantage), but they also have a smaller radar signature(advantage). So when you look at it in-depth, JF-17 certainly would be able to hold it's own against a heavier fighter like the Su-30, as it has a comprehensive suite of modern capabilities as well. The Su-30 will carry a few more missiles, but those don't give an advantage when you're going head-to-head with an aircraft.
 
.
QASBIR.

Forget the RCS

Think radar size of aperture, processing speed of PESA versis thunders MSA
Think one jammer v 3 jammers
Think TVC and agility
think EW suites
Think BVRs with differrent seekers
Think brute power of 2 engines #
Think FUEL

If RCS was the be all and end all then IAF might as well fly mig21 bisons with ram coating as thery have the lowest RCS in the IAF
 
.
QASBIR.

Forget the RCS

Think radar size of aperture, processing speed of PESA versis thunders MSA
Think one jammer v 3 jammers
Think TVC and agility
think EW suites
Think BVRs with differrent seekers
Think brute power of 2 engines #
Think FUEL

If RCS was the be all and end all then IAF might as well fly mig21 bisons with ram coating as thery have the lowest RCS in the IAF

JF-17 AESA
EW suite smiliar to FC -20
HMS
Indigenous BVR,SD-10B,A-Darter,PL-5,Raad ALCM,
greater thrust
stealthy feature
IRST
HOBS
more agile than F-16
inflight refuelling probe
KG-3000 one of the best jammers in the region based on israeli tech
AWACS

I guess it still has a chance? dnt u storm... besides JF-17 will be accompanied by FC-20s,F-16 blk 52+.. etc
 
.
Pak national; i admire you paitriotic stance

but give me a break

THE INDIAN FIGHTER looks 20 years later in design just looking at the pictures.

AND costs 4 times the price
 
.
JF-17 AESA = does not exist on thunder it has KLJ7 msa radar not even pesa like current mki
EW suite smiliar to FC -20 = so what
HMS = anything new
Indigenous BVR,SD-10B,A-Darter,PL-5,Raad ALCM, = chinease copy of R77 amaraski
greater thrust = wat with small engine
stealthy feature = what with out compsites bulit with old fashioned alloys
IRST
HOBS
more agile than F-16 = why look for bloc52s or fc20 then
inflight refuelling probe
KG-3000 one of the best jammers in the region based on israeli tech = mki has israeli jammers already
AWACS
= what better than phalcon awacs supplied by israel
 
.
PAK NATIONAL

To put this bluntly to you

to stop 270 SU30MKI which will be upgraded to super sukhoi standard requires an air force of 200+ equal fighters

equal means 200 FC20/F16/52

PAF has 18 block 52 & possibly 36 FC20

THUNDER will be hard pressed stopping 120 mig29smt/k mirage2000 NEVER MIN the mki

*** I WILL NOT TALK ABOUT mmrca as this has not yet been confirmed (that is another level all together)

Thunder was built to fight IAF of 600 mig21/23/27 mig29 jaguars & mirage2000

NOT 400 su30mki /mmrca + 200- mirage2000/mig29/lca tejas

I THINK I WOULD REDUCE THE THUNDER INDUCTION AND SPEND MORE ON FC20... and a twin egined fighter j11 class
 
.
PAK NATIONAL

To put this bluntly to you

to stop 270 SU30MKI which will be upgraded to super sukhoi standard requires an air force of 200+ equal fighters

equal means 200 FC20/F16/52

PAF has 18 block 52 & possibly 36 FC20

THUNDER will be hard pressed stopping 120 mig29smt/k mirage2000 NEVER MIN the mki

*** I WILL NOT TALK ABOUT mmrca as this has not yet been confirmed (that is another level all together)

Thunder was built to fight IAF of 600 mig21/23/27 mig29 jaguars & mirage2000

NOT 400 su30mki /mmrca + 200- mirage2000/mig29/lca tejas

I THINK I WOULD REDUCE THE THUNDER INDUCTION AND SPEND MORE ON FC20... and a twin egined fighter j11 class

Your judgement of the Thunder is very flawed , you do not know its actual capabilities.. you do not know its radar performance, you do not know the ACTUAL details of the weapons it will carry.. or the performance of its electronic suite.
When you do not know these factors, you are ill equipped to pass any judgement at any time, anywhere.
 
.
the term mini awacs is misleading as no fighter can fulfill the role of awacs. the feature is known as realtime datalink between same fighter types and is not limited to su30. a single jft can guide three jfts in the area to a designated target. it has dual mode data link. other is gci link. even gripen have this ability.
 
.
JF17 Thunder is more then sufficient for national defense, look forward to our 50 new planes by end of year
 
. .
on indian perspective jf -17 is bad because
1. it costs 23 million a piece.
2. It carries less load than MKI
3,Its chinese
4. its made in pakistan.

regarding first point any home made aircraft in a low cost country will cost the same do you now that f-16s made in high labour , high earning country with much more material and size cost 50 million(flyover before taxes etc) or gripen merely cost 35 million or the planned LCA was suppposedly to cost 20 million before it inducted the expensive engine and expensive foreign radar.

second issue about size is that seeing the shape and size of ou country jf-17 is really a best aircraft. gripen was considered a best aircraft but ti lost in MRCA merely due to its size..i think all indians think the same

lastly china is the third country in world that has gone over to make 5th gen aircraft. it has the brain and the money for decades with enough catch up material from the soviets. it would be highly un realistic to think that they dont have the capabilites.especially when indian claim they have specail experties in so many fields
 
.
Pak national; i admire you paitriotic stance

but give me a break

THE INDIAN FIGHTER looks 20 years later in design just looking at the pictures.

AND costs 4 times the price

The SU-30 costs India 4 times the price, it doesn't cost Russia nearly that much. Russia also has to get back it's development costs(which are huge), not just the unit manufacturing costs, as well as large profit margins. I'm sure we'll be willing to sell the JF-17 to India for four times the price of an SU-30, if it helps the Indians feel good(at that price, it will help us feel very good as well).

And btw, the "4 times the price" is a little ridiculous. The Russians are in the habit of regularly gouging up the prices for Indians, they sold India many SU-30s for less than $50 million. Now they sell the same aircraft for close to $100 million. Indian officials have repeatedly complained at Russian blackmailing over prices of everything from aircraft to spares, to even aircraft carriers.

By your logic, now that the Russians are making India pay orders of magnitude more for the Kiev-class carrier, is it suddenly going to perform much better simply because Russians are having their pockets lined with $$$? The Russians built a true heavy-class aircraft carrier to replace the Kiev class(their new Kuznetsov-class, most modern Soviet aircraft carrier), in order to compete with modern western carriers. Of the two Kuznetsov-class carriers that were built, Russia itself operates one and China got the other, and China got it for much, much cheaper than the Kiev-class India got. Does that mean China's carrier is somehow not better than India's - the Kuznetsov-class is actually a 70,000 ton carrier, same class as European carriers. Kiev-class is around half that, at 40,000 tons. Just because the Russians are blackmailing with the price, does not make it more.

So logically, the price you pay is a poor indicator for the performance you'd get, we get JF-17s are a bare-minimum price, even the Research&Development costs aren't factored in because we've been an equal partner funding this project from the beginning. And while the JF-17 is not a heavy-fighter like the SU-30, that means the SU-30 has a greater range and payload. Both aircraft have modern avionics suites, if you look at some things like missile seeker performance, the SD-10B missiles are a very recent development(Pakistan actually took priority shipment even before the PLA-AF got the -B variant), much more modern than the R-77 missiles India has been operating since the 90's.

Also, Russia's pace of development is much slower than China's, even the west is alarmed at China's pace of development. They have the fastest-growing aeronautics industry on the planet with the booming economy, while Russia has significant funding problems.

Both are planned to get AESA radars, neither currently have them. India has a PESA design, while the JF-17's KLJ-7 is similar to F-16's Pulse-Doppler design; the radar offers superior performance over the F-16's design, and Pakistan was originally planning on going with Selex-Galileo radars on the JF-17(they make radars for the Eurofighter and the Gripen - we operate their radars on our F-7 fleet), but the KLJ-7 outperformed Selex-Galileo's offerings in this midrange category.

So the point again is, SU-30 would not have a very easy time with the JF-17. After the Mumbai drama SU-30s crossed the border but F-16s locked onto them and they had to retreat. The SU-30's radar was unable to detect the F-16s until the F-16s had already achieved missile-lock(Gen. Kiyani famously showed pics from the cockpit to visiting US officials back then). So Pakistan has EW/ECW tech not publically known, our Block-52 hadn't even arrived and Block-15s hadn't been modernized yet.
 
.
Any thing added to inventory by any good air force (Which PAF is definitely the one) act as game changer. The game changes or needs adjustments some time fine, some time gross; every time when opponent adds something to its capability. A forward base small radar can change the game in your favour and here we are talking about a jet which is fully developed to its desired generation.
 
.

Latest posts

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom