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Uttarakhand: big and unusual role for the Air Force's C-130J

Wonder how bad Pakistan must really suck for still getting rated below India in Human development Index.. :)

Not more than what more than half your country faces.. and a small,weak middle class against 40% strong middle class in Pakistan.. and lower poverty rates..

Who the fook wanted outdated TOT for those blithering 40 year old platforms like the F-16 they wanted to dump on us? Jeeez! The Yanks can take you guys for a jolly good ride like they've always been doing, but not us! :P

Yeah good for you.. 40 year old F-16s... and the decades old F-18 must be too heavy..:lol:
 

Well fair enough.. congrats.

Yes with 400 million poor and hundreds of millions stuck with 1.25 $ indeed ... india is a shinning example...

Still better than your country though.... higher HDI on medium level, higher GDP per capita (esp. PPP), higher literacy rate, more social spending, million who are lifted from poverty each year, insanely high amounts of infra and development spending etc etc etc...

And yet again, India is fighting poverty on a good pace, compare the different stats.... 10 years ago it was far more than 400 million.. and with BIMARU states growing with +10 % in many cases, expect the figure to shrink even faster.
 
Not more than what more than half your country faces.. and a small,weak middle class against 40% strong middle class in Pakistan.. and lower poverty rates..
But why is aggregate HDI Index in Pakistan then lower than India.. As a matter of fact, while India is in Medium HDI group, Pakistan recently was demoted from medium to Low HDI group. Ever wonder why that is the case despite your so called 40% middle class :D ?

btw, there is only 4 percentage point difference between India and Pakistan on Multi dimensional Poverty index...and the intensity of poverty is considered by UNDP HDR to be higher in Pakistan..
 

How can India's defence budget be $37BN for 2013-14, after a considerable increase, when it was $42 BN last year according to SIPRI:

List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Yes a country with more than 400 million poor ... and an almost non existent middle class ... extreme wealth inequality....whinning abt Pakistan... as for me.. im happy with what God has given me... i drive a damn prado... paying 50 lacs rs for CPL and living comfortably ... all my Gods grace...

India has an "almost non-existent middle class"? I think you're getting confused with Pakistan bro.
 
How can India's defence budget be $37BN for 2013-14, after a considerable increase, when it was $42 BN last year according to SIPRI:

List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




India has an "almost non-existent middle class"? I think you're getting confused with Pakistan bro.

You're actually bothering my brother?

We have a middle class almost twice as large as Pakistan's whole population. But rational syllogisms are not going to be taken on the merit of their content in this case. Leave it be, certain posters engage in what become quintessential examples of exercises in futility.

It is a diversion from the topic at hand. Leave it be. IF off topic posts are made then report them.
@BDforever Get me a ride on one of your naval corvettes and I'll get you one on one of our hercs. :kiss3:
 
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Likely scenario is that more C-130s will get bought; upto 24 eventually. All may not be the C-130J Long Fuselage versions. As it is there a move to buy 2 Herks for Weather (Hurricane Hunting) roles. I've seen the USCG variants as well as the NOAA a/c. As for me; I'd even pitch for approx 12 Sea-Hercs for the IN and ICG. Very rugged aircraft that can be adapted for various roles in a jiffy; even being suitable as AARs for both the INs fixed-wing and rotary-winged aircraft. I know that there is already a pocket of such thinking in the IN, it will get an impetus with such reports. That combined with 6 Shin Meiwa Amphibs will be enough for Transport/Utility/SAR roles along the coast-lines.

About the replacement for Avros; That category of aircraft is necessary considering that the HS-748 is outdated and even the UPG An-32s will need replacement eventually. One of the pluses of the C-27 Spartan is the commonality it share with the C-130 in respect of power-plants and avionics. But other contendors like Alenia are also in the running; so there will have to be a run-off eventually.

My hunch is that even the C-17 orders will be increased by the time the first lot comes in; over the additional 6 options that are on offer. This weather related incident will have some impact on thinking in MoD to increase its options.

Waaay too costly and not very useful mix. The Sea Herc is not developed, India would not only pay extra for a production line in India, but also for the development, of an aircraft that costs more than $100 million a pice anyway and that although we already commited a good ammount of money to the MTA in the same class, so that is not going to happen.
Similarly, the C27J (which is from Alenia), offers common engines and partially avionics (which will be customised by us anyway) to the C130J, but also have it's operational costs, while being less capable. That logically means, that it would make more sense to buy more C130Js, instead of C27Js, but then again that is not going to happen, since the Avro replacement is meant to be a basic transport and uttility aircraft, which doesn't need any tactical capabilities. That's why aircrafts like the Saab 2000, or the AN 140 are also considered and where the C295W in the middle will offer both, capability and cost-effectivity.

And there couldn't be any better argument for the A400, instead of more C17s now, since it could carry trucks and heavy machinery to short and less prepared airstrips, that otherwise only light to medium aircrafts like the C130 could use and where the C17 or the IL 76 are simply too big and heavy.
It will take days or even weeks to get these vehicles an machinery to these places now, because the area are not reachable at the moment and only the heli bridge are really effective today, which delays re-constructions of airstrips, roads or rail connections to the areas.
 
Waaay too costly and not very useful mix. The Sea Herc is not developed, India would not only pay extra for a production line in India, but also for the development, of an aircraft that costs more than $100 million a pice anyway and that although we already commited a good ammount of money to the MTA in the same class, so that is not going to happen.
Similarly, the C27J (which is from Alenia), offers common engines and partially avionics (which will be customised by us anyway) to the C130J, but also have it's operational costs, while being less capable. That logically means, that it would make more sense to buy more C130Js, instead of C27Js, but then again that is not going to happen, since the Avro replacement is meant to be a basic transport and uttility aircraft, which doesn't need any tactical capabilities. That's why aircrafts like the Saab 2000, or the AN 140 are also considered and where the C295W in the middle will offer both, capability and cost-effectivity.

And there couldn't be any better argument for the A400, instead of more C17s now, since it could carry trucks and heavy machinery to short and less prepared airstrips, that otherwise only light to medium aircrafts like the C130 could use and where the C17 or the IL 76 are simply too big and heavy.
It will take days or even weeks to get these vehicles an machinery to these places now, because the area are not reachable at the moment and only the heli bridge are really effective today, which delays re-constructions of airstrips, roads or rail connections to the areas.

Sancho; this is the subject of considerable "brain-storming" by PROFESSIONAL AVIATORS in the IAF for quite some time. Hence the acquisition of the IAF transport aircraft from USA followed the FMS route to just brush aside all potential causes of delays. This was a reflection of the IAF's thinking; nay insistence on the subject. This disaster and the relief operation that had to be mounted in its aftermath will again turn the spotlight on these matters. The C-130s for instance has been on IAF's wish-list since 1963. Nothing changed that, this instance of its utility of operation will not either, it will only work in its favor.

Intriguingly the biggest votaries of the 'big-push' in IAF Air-Lift capability were Fighter pilots as I found from discussions with them, one a retd. VCAS and another an AM who actually did serious flight apparaisals of them as Air Attache in Washington years ago which led to revival of the C-130 acquisition project later. That line of thought as far as I can understand has also found a 'hook' in MoD.

About the A-400 in the IAF its fate is still unknown, the MRTT from the Airbus stable is a cinch; because of issues with the Il-78s, pricing being one of them.
 
Sancho; this is the subject of considerable "brain-storming" by PROFESSIONAL AVIATORS in the IAF for quite some time. Hence the acquisition of the IAF transport aircraft from USA followed the FMS route to just brush aside all potential causes of delays. This was a reflection of the IAF's thinking; nay insistence on the subject.

Just that you ignore that not IAF pilots are making the procurements, but officials in IAF and more importantly of MoD. They have to include things like cost-effectivity, benefits for the industry, ToT of critical parts, operational restrictions because of foreign laws..., things that pilots in brainstormings often forget.
It's one thing to provide a pilot with a good flying machine, but it's another to procure, operate and maintain a large fleet of aircrafts, over such a wide area, that must be able to cover all different kind of geografical, climate or even war and peace time situations. So MoD don't have the luxury to look at certain things only, but have to look at the greater picture and with the currently known budget, there is no way that we will go to operate large fleets of C27J, or C130Js.

This disaster and the relief operation that had to be mounted in its aftermath will again turn the spotlight on these matters. The C-130s for instance has been on IAF's wish-list since 1963. Nothing changed that, this instance of its utility of operation will not either, it will only work in its favor.

Which is not surprising, but still it was procured only for special ops and not as a uttility transporter in large numbers, because that's what MTA is meant to be, with much higher benefits for our industry!
An I do hope that after the disaster there will be an unbiased check of how the forces performed and what could have been done better to be more efficient. And as evident so far, the lack of capable heavy transports through helicopters or fixedwing aircraft that I often mentioned is an issue, or that IA might be working more effectively, if they had all Dhruvs and Mi 17s under their control for the rescue operations!


About the A-400 in the IAF its fate is still unknown

Which is what bothers me the most! The fact that IAF doesn't even asked for informations of a new aircraft, to at least theoretically evaluate it's performance, pros or cons in India is not understandable with plain logic. Anything that can help to improve the performance of Indian forces should at least be worth a read of a few brochures or?


Btw, I've got a question to you wrt to the US 2s. Wouldn't it be more effective to use them in ICG only and in higher numbers, to provide a long range unarmed maritime patrol and SAR capability, instead of using it in ICG and IN, possibly even in IAF for the same purposes? Aren't they the first that are meant to do rescue operations alongside the sea lanes around India?
IN then should remain with LR and MR armed MPAs, like the P8, Sea Hercs or C295Ws, for search and destroy operations of enemy naval assets right?
 
Just that you ignore that not IAF pilots are making the procurements, but officials in IAF and more importantly of MoD. They have to include things like cost-effectivity, benefits for the industry, ToT of critical parts, operational restrictions because of foreign laws..., things that pilots in brainstormings often forget.
It's one thing to provide a pilot with a good flying machine, but it's another to procure, operate and maintain a large fleet of aircrafts, over such a wide area, that must be able to cover all different kind of geografical, climate or even war and peace time situations. So MoD don't have the luxury to look at certain things only, but have to look at the greater picture and with the currently known budget, there is no way that we will go to operate large fleets of C27J, or C130Js.



Which is not surprising, but still it was procured only for special ops and not as a uttility transporter in large numbers, because that's what MTA is meant to be, with much higher benefits for our industry!
An I do hope that after the disaster there will be an unbiased check of how the forces performed and what could have been done better to be more efficient. And as evident so far, the lack of capable heavy transports through helicopters or fixedwing aircraft that I often mentioned is an issue, or that IA might be working more effectively, if they had all Dhruvs and Mi 17s under their control for the rescue operations!




Nope, I did not ignore that MoD "Babus" are inolved in purchase/acquisition decisions. Just that their involvent is usually of the "bean-counting" variety. Which does not say much in terms of quality of input. But that applies solely to normally tendered acquisitions. Not to the FMS route; which is useful to short-circuit red-tape among other things. And is likely to be used among other things. The tender route will be used in projects like the Avro replacement project. But that is it.

Also remember that earlier, the Il-18s, the An-12s, the An-32s and Il-76 came in via the FMS route (or its Indo-Russian equivalent). As did the earlier C-119 Packets when in fact the IAF sought the C-130s in 1962/63. There was no tendering process; simply what has been now officially enshrined into the 'Acceptance of Necessity' concept. That is where Uniformed officers (not just Pilots) have a major role to play.




Which is what bothers me the most! The fact that IAF doesn't even asked for informations of a new aircraft, to at least theoretically evaluate it's performance, pros or cons in India is not understandable with plain logic. Anything that can help to improve the performance of Indian forces should at least be worth a read of a few brochures or?

Oh I'm pretty sure that MoD/AHQ has gone through all the glossy brochures on the A-400 already, attended manufacturer's presentations, even probably 'got up close and personal' at Air-Show s and Factory Visits. That is what Air Attaches get paid to do. And it does'nt even cost too much. The question is how high does it figure on the IAF's wish-list? Even more so when a 'tried and tested' design is already around and has been for years (like 50 years) and is no danger of getting obsolete soon. So the question is: does the IAF even have a slot for the A-400 aircraft in its inventory? Apart from that; not every bit of news regarding the A-400 has been good news.

Btw, I've got a question to you wrt to the US 2s. Wouldn't it be more effective to use them in ICG only and in higher numbers, to provide a long range unarmed maritime patrol and SAR capability, instead of using it in ICG and IN, possibly even in IAF for the same purposes? Aren't they the first that are meant to do rescue operations alongside the sea lanes around India?
IN then should remain with LR and MR armed MPAs, like the P8, Sea Hercs or C295Ws, for search and destroy operations of enemy naval assets right?

In theory: yes. The US-2s should wear ICG colors; which they well might. However the ICGs larger air assets in practice may well be a "seconded-force" to the IN's Fleet Air Arm. As it is IN officers and Aviators do move between the two services. Even the DG ICG is an IN officer at present. Which is open to change in time. But that is more a matter of form, not function.
 
Also remember that earlier, the Il-18s, the An-12s, the An-32s and Il-76 came in via the FMS route

Which you hardly can compare, since in that time we had very limited choice and hardly any industrial benefits in from of offsets or ToT requirements that we demand. Time has changed and today we procure nearly everything in competitions and after comparing different choices (at least the RFIs). The C130s for example were evealuated even before 26/11, the outcome of the evaluation and decision just came later and only for this special purpose of supporting special ops. The uttility aircrafts instead, that will be procured with more benefits in minds were always competitions, be it for BSF, IAF, or the MPA versions for IN and ICG.

Oh I'm pretty sure that MoD/AHQ has gone through all the glossy brochures on the A-400 already, attended manufacturer's presentations.

They haven't, Airbus had proposed infos and even a presentation, but MoD/IAF so far didn't responded so far (stated by different Airbus officials).

So the question is: does the IAF even have a slot for the A-400 aircraft in its inventory?

As I said, if they had it now, they could carry heavy machinery to the area and even to forwarded air strips, things the C17 and IL 76s, nor the C130Js, or MTAs will be able to do. Moreover, when you have a war strategy like coldstart, you have to have an aircraft that not only can transport troops, but also APCs, IFVs, or SPHs to unprepared airstrips close to your possible target. The C17 might have this capability compared to AN 124s, C5s and even to most of the IL76s, but it's still not a tactical aircraft and will have much less suitable airstrips than the C130Js or A400s could use.
The Mali operations of French forces recently showed that too, where C130Js with light and highly mobile forces were transported directly to certain targets, while the C17s transported IFVs for example to a proper airfield, hundreds of Km away from the target. The vehicles then needed to go by road which leave them vulnerable for attacks and delayed the operations too. An A400 might only be able to carry 1 x IFV compared to 2 x in the C17, but it can bring it much closer, if not directly to the place where it's needed and that improves rapid troop movements, or a fast build up of a forwarded base.

In theory: yes. The US-2s should wear ICG colors; which they well might. However the ICGs larger air assets in practice may well be a "seconded-force" to the IN's Fleet Air Arm. As it is IN officers and Aviators do move between the two services. Even the DG ICG is an IN officer at present. Which is open to change in time. But that is more a matter of form, not function.

Of course, but do we need a big IN force for simple patrol or SAR (not CSAR) roles? My concern is more about the efficiency of operations in both forces patrol and rescue alongside our coasts and seal lanes (ICG) and defending our coastlines and sea areas of interest (IN). ICG would be more effective with lets say 5 shore bases alongside Indias coasts, with each having 5-6 x US2 for MPA/SAR operations.
 
How can India's defence budget be $37BN for 2013-14, after a considerable increase, when it was $42 BN last year according to SIPRI:

List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes i guess Sipri is more reliable than your own govt tht presented the figure...


India has an "almost non-existent middle class"? I think you're getting confused with Pakistan bro.

How many times are you going to embarass urself on this point? even last time you asked for sources... and after i provided them... u went silent...

Mate two of those links don't work and the third is from 2005 and says Pakistan "may" sell parts to Boeing or Airbus.

Did you bother to read the several articles with links i posted in reply to koovies rants?


But why is aggregate HDI Index in Pakistan then lower than India.. As a matter of fact, while India is in Medium HDI group, Pakistan recently was demoted from medium to Low HDI group. Ever wonder why that is the case despite your so called 40% middle class :D ?

btw, there is only 4 percentage point difference between India and Pakistan on Multi dimensional Poverty index...and the intensity of poverty is considered by UNDP HDR to be higher in Pakistan..

Lol please man... 17-18% vs 40+% in india... seriously?
 
They haven't, Airbus had proposed infos and even a presentation, but MoD/IAF so far didn't responded so far (stated by different Airbus officials).

Which just means that: The IAF has no need for that aircraft!
 
Which just means that: The IAF has no need for that aircraft!

You can't know that you don't need it, when you didn't even know anything about it or? That's why IN for example asked for informations on all possibly available carrier fighters, no matter if they are available, if they are under development, or even only in concept study phase. That's how you learn about options and possibilities, IAFs ignorance in this case (same for the V22, that reportedly was only presented to IN or ICG as it seems), is a loss for them and you can actually see many of these kinds of mistakes in IAFs evaluation and competition process. Not evaluating the CH53K, or Eurocopters alternatives, not adding lifecycle costs in the tanker competition, having too widely spread requirements in RFPs (see VIP helicopter, or MMRCA)...
And this lack of proper planing or at least evaluating is a matter of concern!
 
You can't know that you don't need it, when you didn't even know anything about it or? That's why IN for example asked for informations on all possibly available carrier fighters, no matter if they are available, if they are under development, or even only in concept study phase. That's how you learn about options and possibilities, IAFs ignorance in this case (same for the V22, that reportedly was only presented to IN or ICG as it seems), is a loss for them and you can actually see many of these kinds of mistakes in IAFs evaluation and competition process. Not evaluating the CH53K, or Eurocopters alternatives, not adding lifecycle costs in the tanker competition, having too widely spread requirements in RFPs (see VIP helicopter, or MMRCA)...
And this lack of proper planing or at least evaluating is a matter of concern!

Oh; do you really believe that the IAF (as a trained force of professionals)does not know what it needs?? :)
I'll just check with my friends in AHQ; maybe they need to hire some consultants now, eh.
 
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