Used F16's - EDA 50 ~ 100 Available

[denel]

Hi,

Thank you for the post---.

I only wish that SA had waited a little longer and procured the JF17's rather than the Grippen---.

And then marketed it with their weapons & EW package as a whole. What a boost that would have given to the venture.

I don't know if the Paf ever targeted SA for that---.

we will never purchase aircraft with russian engines or chinese electronics; however we excel in upgrading those e.g. Migs or Mi platforms further. jf-17 unfrotunately is a step backwards for us. We already had local cheetah platforms specific for our purpose with equivalent or better capabilities in early 90s. Note we have entire EW/HMD/electronics which is local + supporting various JVs.

 

[SQ8]

I prefer that the PAF look at the MiG-35 or MiG-29M/M2.

It's a medium-weight platform, but we could equip the RD-33MK to the JF-17 as well - the MiG-35 and JF-17 could share the same engine. In fact, one could go several steps further and have the MiG-35 and JF-17 share the same radar, avionics, EW/ECM and weapons too.

For all intents and purposes, the MiG-29/35 could be a bigger and longer-range JF-17, and a beater for strike roles. Egypt got its MiG-29M/M2s for USD $40m a fighter.

Russian hardware is the issue.

we will never purchase aircraft with russian engines. jf-17 brings nothing new for us. we already had local cheetah platforms specific for our purpose.

Considering you flew the F1 with the rd33, I would reconsider that statement.
The cheetah is gone and the Gripens you can't afford bare minimum flight hours on thanks to Zuma.
If you have not heard, South Africa just got rated Junk thanks to that idiot. He is a stain on Mandela's legacy.

 

[denel]

Russian hardware is the issue.



Considering you flew the F1 with the rd33, I would reconsider that statement.
The cheetah is gone and the Gripens you can't afford bare minimum flight hours on thanks to Zuma.
If you have not heard, South Africa just got rated Junk thanks to that idiot. He is a stain on Mandela's legacy..

F1 with RD33 was a test bed - i was there at the facilities in Atlasville when this was being done. Not a production fighter. Alas, we are in the proverbial dark age with this idiot Zuma and his indian handlers

 

[SQ8]

F1 with RD33 was a test bed - i was there at the facilities in Atlasville when this was being done. Not a production fighter. Alas, we are in the proverbial dark age with this idiot Zuma and his indian handlers

My impression of South Africa currently is that you guys went from being the potential as-good-as independent alternative to western equipment from the 90's down to has-beens.
PAF's stand off capability along with various other systems is all South African but these days the Turks are besting you in quality and capability

 

[denel]

My impression of South Africa currently is that you guys went from being the potential as-good-as independent alternative to western equipment from the 90's down to has-beens.
PAF's stand off capability along with various other systems is all South African but these days the Turks are besting you in quality and capability

You are correct but there is the state on the govt bureaus but we have a large private series of groups independently working where the breakthroughs are happening e.g. Paramount, Reutech and others are tied into European industries which is why they are not visible. Turkey has done really well no doubt.

 

[SQ8]

You are correct but there is the state on the govt bureaus but we have a large private series of groups independently working where the breakthroughs are happening e.g. Paramount, Reutech and others are tied into European industries which is why they are not visible. Turkey has done really well no doubt.

We would dither too much from the topic but even the Gripen purchase seemed excessive for South African Defence needs post the relative peace Mandela has achieved. The Angolans have pretty much withered away, everyone else is too busy killing inside their own countries.
If anything, a second hand F-16 purchae would have suited SA with the remaining money focusing on the Roolivak and additional border contingency equipment.

Right now, those Gripens are like a white elephant around SAAFs neck.

 

[MastanKhan]

we will never purchase aircraft with russian engines or chinese electronics; however we excel in upgrading those e.g. Migs or Mi platforms further. jf-17 unfrotunately is a step backwards for us. We already had local cheetah platforms specific for our purpose with equivalent or better capabilities in early 90s. Note we have entire EW/HMD/electronics which is local + supporting various JVs.

Hi,

You would have had a solid marketing base for many a countries in north africa and maybe in the gulf---with your own complete EW and weapons package---.

Cheetah got outdated and old---.

A step backward or a step forward---depends on how you project it---how you market it.

 

[denel]

We would dither too much from the topic but even the Gripen purchase seemed excessive for South African Defence needs post the relative peace Mandela has achieved. The Angolans have pretty much withered away, everyone else is too busy killing inside their own countries.
If anything, a second hand F-16 purchae would have suited SA with the remaining money focusing on the Roolivak and additional border contingency equipment.

Right now, those Gripens are like a white elephant around SAAFs neck.

Yes, it was forced down our throats. Entire kickbacks were a sham.

Our group fought to keep internal development but the europeans promised many things, nothing happened. we lost so much and many people left. this was our darkest decade. Finally private enterprises took over.

Hi,

You would have had a solid marketing base for many a countries in north africa and maybe in the gulf---with your own complete EW and weapons package---.

Cheetah got outdated and old---.

A step backward or a step forward---depends on how you project it---how you market it.

Yes, Cheetah was a stop gap for the local variant of Lavi like your ROSE program. Lavi was to become the standard fighter for us. There is a lot of support for North African countries, and also with UAE too. However remember these are French dominions (not countries), they cannot say anything or take a decision without Paris's nod. It was still a surprise when we were able to sell lot of Ratels - because it was a capability France did not have ability to give.

 

[Basel]

just spoke to a friend who works at warton (eft final assembly) and he told me that bae systems was working on bringing the acquisition costs down to 85 million pounds Stirling to make it more attractive.


the sd-10 has a longer range than the rvv-ae. so when they (iaf) come close enough to strike, the chances of them being detected and pakistan would very likely would be first to fire (in theory)

but when the rafale comes with the meteor............

Till then PL-15 & PL-21D will be available to PAF.

85 million pounds is still big amount, same in dollars will be reasonable for EFT.

 

[MastanKhan]

Yes, it was forced down our throats. Entire kickbacks were a sham.

Our group fought to keep internal development but the europeans promised many things, nothing happened. we lost so much and many people left. this was our darkest decade. Finally private enterprises took over.


Yes, Cheetah was a stop gap for the local variant of Lavi like your ROSE program. Lavi was to become the standard fighter for us. There is a lot of support for North African countries, and also with UAE too. However remember these are French dominions (not countries), they cannot say anything or take a decision without Paris's nod. It was still a surprise when we were able to sell lot of Ratels - because it was a capability France did not have ability to give.

Hi,

I still think that SA should get one JF17 from Paf---and do their thing---put their electronics---weapons---displays etc etc etc.

France still does not have an aircraft in that price range---no one else has an aircraft in that price range to replace the MIG21's.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

I do concur with Bilal. Trying to saturate an existing fleet with another non prod model which is already burdened by obsolescence makes is counter productive. Stay the path of evolving jf-17 there is a very long way away. If RSA ties prove fruitful, there is a huge win in several arenas - there are already several areas where you have benefited already and carried it forward in Block 2. Jf-17b and Block 3 from what is being quoted will bring very significant improvements. THat is where the lines need to be drawn to what would become two seperate or three seperate lines e.g. Single/dual + export variant.
Main concern will be for your institutes to shed the plagurising/copying and spend time to kick start local R&D.
Look at us, we did not just wake up at once and decide this was to be. It was the foundation laid in the 50's knowing that we would be hit with sanctions and early work started. Educational institutions are tied to industries and it is a symbiotic relationship. For example, some of the early work we did which i took part in for our hf comms net later evolved into bluetooth; it is good to see always that my contribution is part of the framework which everyone uses now and does not think about it... sorry i digressed from the topic but wanted to highlight that without efforts and hard work, you cannot move mountains.

baie goed werk dat jullie deden!

I agree with every word you said...JF is the way to go..all in.

 

[ghazi768]

just spoke to a friend who works at warton (eft final assembly) and he told me that bae systems was working on bringing the acquisition costs down to 85 million pounds Stirling to make it more attractive.


the sd-10 has a longer range than the rvv-ae. so when they (iaf) come close enough to strike, the chances of them being detected and pakistan would very likely would be first to fire (in theory)

but when the rafale comes with the meteor............

Yes, you are right, in theory a meteor should be much longer ranged.

There are two thing to have a long range BVR, a radar which can detect/track at that length and also a missile which can than get to that range and obviously JF block 1/2 do not have both. But by the time Rafale arrives in South Asia, are you sure that a JF block 3 (or even B) will not have such a radar and an SD-11 or 15 or whatever Chinese decide to name it..

 

[Blue Marlin]

Yes, you are right, in theory a meteor should be much longer ranged.

There are two thing to have a long range BVR, a radar which can detect/track at that length and also a missile which can than get to that range and obviously JF block 1/2 do not have both. But by the time Rafale arrives in South Asia, are you sure that a JF block 3 (or even B) will not have such a radar and an SD-11 or 15 or whatever Chinese decide to name it..

indeed india is due to get the first batch by 2019 the earliest the jf-17 blk 3 would be entering serve by then and the dual seated already inducted.
i heard the dual seater is already made and has/is undergoing tests. i have a strange feeling we will see at the paris airshow later this year along with fc-31 pt-3. with 6 internal hard points.
with the way the fgfa it going it wont see indian service post 2025 and the amca post 2030.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

A very senior member has been very sarcastic at me and made comment if I was sitting in those meetins of the higher ups making the aircraft deals.

To that young man---I was not sitting in any of those meetings where Gen Kiyani sold out pakistan to the U S---but his actions were so very obvious and open---that a simple analysis on my part showed me about him being an accomplice in the Abottabad strike in 2011---whereas others were blind as a bat in a dark night---.

I do not know the details of the sale---but the obvious factor of his involvement was very evident---.

So---there were so many pakistanis on this board---who were sarcastic at my analysis at that time---.

As it is my turn now---should I call them less capable---or should I leave it at " does not have the analytical ability to comprehend and deduce the outcome from a given scenario / picture ".

 

[Path-Finder]

we will never purchase aircraft with russian engines or chinese electronics; however we excel in upgrading those e.g. Migs or Mi platforms further. jf-17 unfrotunately is a step backwards for us. We already had local cheetah platforms specific for our purpose with equivalent or better capabilities in early 90s. Note we have entire EW/HMD/electronics which is local + supporting various JVs.

Does SA have a HMD at present? There was an image believed to be from SA being tested on JF17 (below) in the previous decade but the company behind it is now merged into BAE and there is now BAE Striker HMDS.