US threatens sanctions over Iran gas deal

[muse]

well say it we need a revolution and about 2000 people in pakistan starting from zardari to be eliminated. We need to ask the french if they could lend us some guillotines or ask the english to give us some roundheads etc A dictator or maybe a committee for a period lol

I don't think it's possible -- You know I don't think it's in the Pakistani character to do that - Yes, I realize what I just said, after all the cruelty and pettiness we experience, yes, I still maintain it's not in the Pakistani character - for instance, Pakistanis could never accept to do things like what are done in Iraq or Syria or Arabia, we just can't, it's not what we are, it's not who we are. Look at our military coups, bloodless - look at one of the most traumatic events in Pakistani political history, Zia/Bhutto -- but others will point to Bangladesh and say that yes, we are capable -- I'm not arguing that we are not capable, rather that it's just not us.

See, this Sanctions business is not about welcoming them, because lets face it the world is globalized and so are we - being outside the order is absolutely terrible, further we do not have the advantages others do, the only way we can make a living is by working - and that means being part of the global order

 

[longbrained]

Longbrained

What about the effect on Private Pakistanis and their business and property? I think these will be very painful, especially for those in the West.

What really matters is how Pakistan can respond to sanctions - As none of these arbi types will offer any diplomatic and especially economic policy support, this wil place Pakistan in a rather precarious position, in the sense that Pakistan will not be organize a response that US policy makers will be able to take note of.

The effects on private "average" Pakistanis is going to be minimal really. That is due to the way Pakistani economy is. The economy that is feeding the average Pakistani is not really connected to global economy by a great factor. Most foods consumed are local so are most clothes, housing, medicine etc. The upper class people though might find it more expensive to buy luxury items though but most of them will still be able to afford their life style. Not to say that difficulties are not going to be there, specially for very rich people. Every thing has a solution. For example, if they sanction banks, then people will revert to use the old trusted Pakistani system of Hawala. Economy will never stop. Private people need not worry. Sanctions are never placed against private people. The biggest houses in US and EU belong to Iranians. You must have seen them there. Iranians living in western countries are generally richer than Pakistanis and still thriving despite being under sanctions. Sanctions against private people are against UN charters and have never been implemented in history. About businesses too, they will adjust. Businesses are thriving more in Iran than in Pakistan. Iran's none-oil exports is larger than Pakistan's total exports despite Iran having a smaller population.
As for help from others, well do not expect any. Specially not from client states. But there might be some help from China and Iran, due to their independent policies. Overall I do not see sanctions being hurtful to Pakistan in long term, rather it would make Pakistan more united and government more powerful, something Pakistan really needs. As for the caliber of Pakistani politicians, I agree with you but you have to remember that Iranians also learned alot of their caliber along the way. The learning process can be fastened if Pakistan make some strategic agreement with Iran and thus learn and get help from them in this regard. The most damage from sanctions if at all will be because of panic and not because of their effects. Anyways as I said before, I do not think US will ever dare to sanction Pakistan in an extensive manner. Have heart, muse. International politics is very much like James Bond playing a gambling session. Though as I said, Pakistan does not have much to lose to begin with. But there is a good chance it will come out with its hands full. We need a total rethink of how we have been doing things as in the last 60 years we have not been able to put forward much improvements. Poverty is there. One third of Pakistanis kids are out of school, with Pakistan's infant mortality rate just being lower than Afghanistan and Somalia. These are not somethings to be proud of. We have to focus on our own economic development rather on our role play in US games in the region.

 

[longbrained]

well say it we need a revolution and about 2000 people in pakistan starting from zardari to be eliminated. We need to ask the french if they could lend us some guillotines or ask the english to give us some roundheads etc A dictator or maybe a committee for a period lol

No need to be violent at all. We just need to focus on economy and energy issues. The rest will fall in place. Corruption exists every where. The French president last weak had been brought to court because he used to receive extortion money from African and Arab leaders. In court he said, he has dementia and does not remember anything in a scene out of a Bollywood movie. If economy is fixed corruption will automatically go down. Trust me on that. This is how economy works. Where there is little bread, there will be fight over bread and there will corruption over bread distribution. Where bread (wealth) is plenty, there will no fight and corruption rather you will find people on street offering you bread just to have a chat and pass time. This is called economy of wealth generation. Guillotines are so from dark ages. Today we have digital computers and robotic surgery instead.

 

[longbrained]

Also Muse, about Iran's oil earning, I must say, they do not export really much. Just 2 million barrels a day. Pakistan has large reserves of minerals somewhere estimated at over seven trillion dollars. Some of the mines are worth more than 200 billion dollar worth a piece. So it is not like Iran has lots of oil exports and Pakistan is empty handed. This is not the case. Good quality copper price in international markets cost over ten thousand dollars per tonne. Pakistan can start from there. Hope is what we need.

 

[muse]

Longbrained

During the last Shah's father's reign, Iran had contracts with the English (AngloPersian) and the English used tribal Khans to stop the flow of oil and therefore reduce the royalties the Iranian government got - so as the line from Hamlet goes, it was a "to suffer slings and arrows... or by taking arms.. oppose and end them", moment -- For Pakistan such a moment has never come and it's mineral wealth remains "potential" -- yes, it may have been 2 million barrels/pd but at an average $80/bbl, it's not chump change in hard currency.

Of course you realize that the sanctions regime would bring out a general hostility between the US and Pakistan

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

ek to aid lete ho,weapons lete ho,wahan ki citizenship lete ho,wahan padne ke liye jaate ho....upar se galiyan nikalte ho.

sounds like you and the Australians and Canadians!

(well perhaps less the weapons)

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Going to war with somebody is its own invitation - the Taliban maintained their support of OBL after 9/11 and the U.S. Congress listed dozens of justifications of the war to oust Saddam. Citizens and soldiers don't get off the hook just because they obey the orders of tyrants. That's what the Nuremberg trials established over sixty years ago.

no the taleban asked for proof and offered to hand them over if found guilty in an Islamic court.....but the US, being a wounded bear, felt it needed immediate revenge.

on Iraq especially, the media and the neo-cons worked hand in hand --- and as a result, a country was illegally invaded and no WMDs were found. They invaded an entire sovereign country based on a pack of lies, and killed scores of innocents and created a civil-war in Iraq.


so dont talk to me about funding terrorism or any of that. And no, I'm not accusing America of being a terrorist nation. But morally, you are in no position to be high-and-mighty. And deep down inside in that democratic Obama loving head of yours, you know i'm right.

 

[Donatello]

Screw USA....their own politicians have done a good job of sending their own people's work overseas and turning their nation in to a food stamp nation......Pakistan should go ahead and build the pipeline....and bury it underground to protect from being blown up by the CIA.

 

[lem34]

well say it we need a revolution and about 2000 people in pakistan starting from zardari to be eliminated. We need to ask the french if they could lend us some guillotines or ask the english to give us some roundheads etc A dictator or maybe a committee for a period lol

self delete

 

[lem34]

No need to be violent at all. We just need to focus on economy and energy issues. The rest will fall in place. Corruption exists every where. The French president last weak had been brought to court because he used to receive extortion money from African and Arab leaders. In court he said, he has dementia and does not remember anything in a scene out of a Bollywood movie. If economy is fixed corruption will automatically go down. Trust me on that. This is how economy works. Where there is little bread, there will be fight over bread and there will corruption over bread distribution. Where bread (wealth) is plenty, there will no fight and corruption rather you will find people on street offering you bread just to have a chat and pass time. This is called economy of wealth generation. Guillotines are so from dark ages. Today we have digital computers and robotic surgery instead.

sorry mate i disagree. vested self interest will not allow pakistan to develop. Zardari and co with the indirect help of the west not allow our country to develop naturally. Who do you think will fix the economy? retards like zardari or rehman maliks of this world?

getting back to thread if they put sanctions on pakistan how they gonna get to afghanistan and are they going to push us more towards china and iran?

 

[DV RULES]

A country could not be our ally if our interests possess not importance in their views. Pakistan has to build this pipeline because we need it not USA.

 

[Jihad]

I'm sick and tired of these demands coming from the U.S.

They continue to piss and step on all of us, first they sanction us in the 90s, then they gradually lift them (after f-ing us up), then when our economy is finally starting to show signs of progress, they threaten to bomb us back to the stone age if we do not join them in the WoT. After that, Pakistan's mainland, people, economy, infrastructure, manpower etc has suffered so much, they continue with their demands and tell us to "do more".

What kind of an ally is this? How dare they tell us to "do more", how dare they insult the parents of all these jawans, these young soldiers who laid their lives? How dare these arrogant and imperialistic bastards to threaten us with more sanctions.

How dare they conduct nuclear deals with India, our worst enemy, while keeping us on a tight leash, like a dog.
If the dog disobeys or barks, the grip tightens and the dog is disciplined.

They gave us ****, their whole "aid-package" was and is full of strings attached to it, we have lost so much more then this so-called American aid could ever account for let alone compensate.

We get a few rusty old cobra's, while Israel get's the latest Apaches, F-22 raptor deals in progress, joint development of missiles etc, transfer of technology, millions of dollars of direct military aid to them each month, and the Israelis have the Palestinians, and some guerilla fighters armed with self-made rockets as their enemy.

While Pakistan faces militants armed by the Americans and Soviets back then, the danger and threat is huge.
Pakistan could've made early and heavy inroads into the militant hideouts, we could've achieved so much more, had our "ally" adopted the right stance, and had they (the Americans) given us the right technology and weaponry.

The Americans are in Afghanistan around 10+- years now, yet the threat of militancy is still very much alive in the country.
Pakistan faces cross-border attacks from Afghanistan aswell, why isn't mr. Leon Panetta concerned about that? It looks like he doesn't give a sh-t, but if America's interests are attacked or whatever, it's serious business. But if a bomb blast or terrorist attack occurs in Pakistan because of militans who crossed the border from Afghanistan, it's not so important?

I say F--- the Americans and screw their insults. We are a sovereign nation and don't have to accept their nonsense, they're clearly looking after their own interests.
Mainland U.S. is safe, so what are they crying about? It's not like Pakistan, where the country faces bomb blasts daily.

They look after their interests, and we look after ours. Time has proven so many times that the U.S. government is unreliable and unpredictable.

 

[iPhone]

I agree that sanctions on the Pakistan armed forces made them more resilient - I also agree that Iran is stronger because of Sanctions - -- but does that mean Pakistan will be stronger? I don't think so - my reasons for holding this view is that Pakistan's politicians and political parties, are not of the caliber that could deliver - in fact the way Pakistan is organized serves to hinder it's ability to take advantage of sanctions --- In the case of Iran, there was oil sales, in the case of Pakistan, there is the ever present begging bowl

and sanction would help the country rid itself from these corrupt, gutless, incompetent politicians who can't deliver. Once, the hand that feeds them, gives them their free 'pocket money' is gone, what do you think will happen. We'll see an exodus of this corrupt ilk from politics. It will no longer be a lucrative business for them since there will be no free money coming in and very little can be be obtained nationally through corruption. This will help pave the way for competent and honest people to step up and take charge in politics. We already have a few good people vying to make strides. Sanction will help speed up the process.

 

[longbrained]

Longbrained

During the last Shah's father's reign, Iran had contracts with the English (AngloPersian) and the English used tribal Khans to stop the flow of oil and therefore reduce the royalties the Iranian government got - so as the line from Hamlet goes, it was a "to suffer slings and arrows... or by taking arms.. oppose and end them", moment -- For Pakistan such a moment has never come and it's mineral wealth remains "potential" -- yes, it may have been 2 million barrels/pd but at an average $80/bbl, it's not chump change in hard currency.

Of course you realize that the sanctions regime would bring out a general hostility between the US and Pakistan

That is not entirely true. Actually, it was not British that were paying Khans to blow up stuff, it was a story later on made up. Iran did not get any commissioned royalties as per the agreement father of Shah had with Anglo-Iranian oil company. As per that agreement, Iran was to get 16,000 British Pounds per year and all Iran's oil and gas belonged to UK for 100 years till 2003. The agreement was extendable for another 100 years also. Iran's oil was the only source of oil for UK and it was used to change UK's economy from a coal based one to an oil based one. The Iranian oil was used to fight both world war I and world war II, fueling British tanks, ships and air crafts. It was a shameful agreement and Iranians to this day feel shameful about it. The Khans were actually fighting for the agreement to be annulled, but it took them till 1953 when the agreement finally changed, and Iran got a 30% share from then to 1979. The rest were 30% American share, 20% French and 20% British from 1953 to 1979.

Pakistan will not have any such moment since this is not 1900's. Besides in today's globalized world it is very difficult for any nation to subjugate Pakistan a nuclear nation to terms that shameful. Also Pakistan has the technology and human resources to develop its mining resources purely on its own terms. It is going to take more time, but it is doable. Pakistan can easily earn more than 100 billion dollars per year in today's prices for some 70 years exporting minerals. It is more than what Iran is earning exporting oil. The only problem is to design long term plans and access to energy. Purifying minerals and mineral refineries consume large amount of energy, as you might know. Add to this the potential for Pakistan to make value added commodities from those minerals instead of just exporting them (eg exporting copper wire instead of exporting Copper metal), and adding the export potential of other sectors of Pakistani economy which even in today's troubled times is exporting close to 40 billion dollars annually, it can safely be assumed that Pakistan has the potential to export 300-400 billion dollars each year, and a GDP of easily over a trillion dollars. This is enough to make Pakistan a high medium income country in the world and combined with status of Pakistan as a powerful military force, this means Pakistan can be a major player in world's stage. Image of Pakistan will automatically improve then.

But to get there we need some bold steps. If we just continue with current situation, nothing will ever change. We are going to get poorer only. By 2050, it is estimated Pakistan's population will reach 360 million people. Already India's GDP per capita has surpassed that of Pakistan in recent years for the first time, as Indians used to be poorer than Pakistanis for the past 65 years. China the other neighbor of Pakistan is already way ahead of Pakistan. Afghanistan having a smaller population, and having an unofficial estimated mineral reserves of over 3 trillion dollars is investing in mines and if it is successful in stabilizing the country, then they will fast over take Pakistani income levels. Iran, also you know is doing well and has great plans for future. Where this leaves Pakistan? Well without a radical rethink and bold steps, we will fall behind, becoming the poorest among our neighbors, a hard and harsh reality. Sanctions are not that important in the bigger picture as you can see. They are hardly going to be a nuisance if at all. And as Aryan_B said it, US needs Pakistan more than Pakistan needs US. So either sanctions are just talk and will never come or they are going to be minimal and symbolic. The fear of this should not stop Pakistan from going forward with its future plans for a brighter Pakistan.

 

[longbrained]

sorry mate i disagree. vested self interest will not allow pakistan to develop. Zardari and co with the indirect help of the west not allow our country to develop naturally. Who do you think will fix the economy? retards like zardari or rehman maliks of this world?

getting back to thread if they put sanctions on pakistan how they gonna get to afghanistan and are they going to push us more towards china and iran?

Well, I can not go along with a dark view of Pakistan. Reading world history shows that humans have alot of potential. All corruption today is because of outdated backward economy and this will never go away unless the economy is propelled. We can not bring angels to rule the country. Human is to err. This is the end truth. Violence will only beget more violence. Revenge might be sweet but its future is certainly dark. Let me remind you that French revolution failed. This what people do not know or do not realize. Blood has never been able to wipe out economic problems and if anything it has exacerbate them. China spilled blood, but the economy never improved. It only improved when they took some bold steps in late 1970's changing their economic system and started to use energy to produce more commodities and thus creating wealth. Russia spilled lots of blood immediately after revolution but the economy got only worse. It was only when they started to rethink their policies and investing in manufacturing sectors that they became a world power. If you do not like Zardari then by all means you can vote him out in about a year. So can others. When people become richer and thus more educated, they use their votes more thoughtfully. We have to start some where and I guess the best place to start is to build this pipe line and use its gas to power industrial complexes providing jobs and wealth creation in addition to sending a clear signal out that Pakistan is an independent state.

---------- Post added at 02:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:37 PM ----------

and sanction would help the country rid itself from these corrupt, gutless, incompetent politicians who can't deliver. Once, the hand that feeds them, gives them their free 'pocket money' is gone, what do you think will happen. We'll see an exodus of this corrupt ilk from politics. It will no longer be a lucrative business for them since there will be no free money coming in and very little can be be obtained nationally through corruption. This will help pave the way for competent and honest people to step up and take charge in politics. We already have a few good people vying to make strides. Sanction will help speed up the process.

I agree. But not only that, with sanctions alot of politician will have to come back to people as source of their power instead of bowing to foreign powers as the power source. This will put power back in people's hand.