US-PAKISTAN RELATIONSHIP

[S-2]

"It became apparent to me that most Americans had the right instincts by they were poorly educated about world history, geography and politics that they could not make political decisions for themselves about the world outside and left such choices to their leaders. The necons counted on just this ignorance and compliance to conduct their foriegn policy.

Compared to the pre-9/11 isolationism, the necon ideology now focused on keeping the American public in a constant state of fear, with looming exsaggerated threats and potential war..."


Comments such as this aren't accurate, constructive, and suggest more than a bit of myopia born of its own provincialism and bias.

Mr. Rashid also demonstrates a need for a refresher on representative governance. Given that he's Pakistani, however, this is forgiven. It's premise that we're compliant ignorants duped by our leadership really, however, isn't.

No nation is more aware or connected globally than America. We trade globally at a hyper level, even still. It is how we make our living-a mercantile nation on two oceans. That means it's citizens are disproportionately engaged in global security and commerce functions daily throughout this nation and elsewhere overseas.

Nevermind the countless thousands of American families who've lived overseas as part of our extensive military and diplomatic obligations since 1945. Or our university system where many of you become our first encounter with foreigners.

Ah, I could go on but it's silly...and incorrect. Embrace as you shall but let the buyer beware that this is more opium for your pipes.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

See this 'what have you done for me lately' is a two way street---pakistanis ask the same question as well---then the u s doesnot like when it hears that question---that is the root cause of this fiasco---the americans were so used to asking this question from everybody else and when it came their turn---they turned around and left pakistan standing alone.

Then on top of that---they passed the sanctions and sat on the pakistani F 16 money of $650 million for 10 years. The problem is that too many corporate executive in the u s govt have been running foreign relations with other countries as their personal fiefdoms ( private corporation )---the thing is that kind of mentality works fine and well in a cororation---where any regime is extremely dictatorial and termination is at will---ie there is no job security---.

You cannot run international relations based on that theory alone. You will be able to force yourself on a nation which wants economic stability---but a nation like afghanistan---where young boys and men thrive on taking a shot at the FERENGI and have a trophy to remeber for the rest of their lives. The u s will have to kill every pushtun afghan boy child and still there will be someone left to take a shot at the u s millitary. This is who the afghans are---.

G B was an idiot---and his generals and advisors bigger fools than him to advise him to go into afghanistan without a solid gameplan and time frame and a goal oriented expedition---. The americans have become entangled into their own web of deceit and lies---they want to beat everyone into submission by the power of death that they wield in their hands---but then that is no way to bring peace into the region.

The problem right now is that there is so much deceit on the american side at the moment---that it is getting really scary for pakistan---what is going to happen to it. The powers to be have made a decision---there is a game that is being played in the NWFP and baluchistan---this game is benefitting the outsiders---a very high quality chess match is being set up----most of the players and positions are filled up.

Pakistanis are indeed present as well---they do know the stakes at hand, but do they have the courage to face the beast.

So, going back to it----u s was so used to asking this question as it was its birth right---it has found out---that this question should have been left at home with the civilians. Millitary rules rules are run on different principals.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

I miss the "thanks" Button

So, "eyeless" thanks, American diplomacy follows American interests.

You're welcome, muse.

I'd like to 'nuance' that statement. To say that 'American diplomacy follows American interests' is absolutely true.

But you could well say that for any country. Pakistan, India, Burkina Faso.

So, I 'd like to clarify, IMO, American interests vary, American interests in business are permanent.

Put it this way. Bush had a foreign policy towards Europe that seems to be different from Obama's. This is a change in American interest.

The one interest, IMO, common to the two Presidents is business. It is also the one interest that will be common to any future US President. Other interests will come and go.

If a nation wants to have a more permanent relationship with America, the only interest that is enduring is business.

And by business I mean trade, economy, etc. Nothing more.

In my very very humble opinion, If Pakistan and Pakistanis fail to understand that, 5, 10, 15 years from now you will be saying exactly the same thing I think you are saying or implying now- 'Honour', 'Betrayal', 'Used and Discarded', etc.

Notice America's track record with some smaller, less powerful countries that it had a geo-political interest in, BUT these nations have not managed to engage successfully with US corporations/ businesses. Think it over.

For those who have not worked in America, here's just two things I found interesting (from my Indian/ South Asian perspective).

A good percentage of MBA students (Harvard downwards) are from the armed forces. Their politicians and businessmen quite often comfortably exchange roles/ positions. Why is that?

I think it's a great system. But it needs to be fundamentally understood.

 

[dbc]

I have read a lot of very informed and insightful analysis about the context and intricacies of the US Pakistan relationship, so it was time well spent.

But I think Pakistani forummers are missing the point, missing the woods for the trees.

In the 1920s or so a US president said that the 'business of America is business'. That sums it up, end of. A nation's interests are permanent, friends and enemies come and go. America's permanent interest is just that, business. Any nation that wishes to engage with America's polity and its people must engage in business with America. Everything else is secondary.

I do not wish to be misunderstood; having lived and worked in the US for five years now, I greatly admire America and Americans. America is racist, it discriminates against the poor, it has no 'heart' as we South Asians understand 'heart'.

But it is also, in my opinion, the least racist country in the world, the one place where you can be everything you want if you work for it. Americans are some of the most generous people in the world. There is no other country like it. It is, again IMO, the greatest experiment in democracy that the world has known.

But America always asks the question - what have you done for me today? Pakistani forummers would do well to understand that. 'We had your back in the 80s against Russia' will not hack it. While the Americans are a honourable people, 'honour' will not hack it when dealing with them. American regimes come and go, opinion swings this way and that, but one thing is permanent - America's business.

To be fair that is the question that Americans ask each other as well - 'What have you done for me lately'? It's the question I am asked - overtly and covertly - every single day I go to work. After the first few months absorbing the intense cultural shock of this reality, it is the question I now ask my subordinates as well. It is professionalism at its most intense.

You think Pakistan is being treated badly? Perhaps. Observe how Americans treat Americans who are no longer relevant to their professional needs. I am not saying it is cruel, although it can be. It's just - business.

Why did the Japanese, from an American perspective, go from cartoon caricatures in WW II to the deadly, powerful businessmen in Rising Sun. How did anime and Manga become so popular in the US? What was the common link?

In a word, business. Create value that is more permanent than the events of a decade or two.

America absorbs influences, America takes cultures from round the world and makes it uniquely American. But to engage with America, to become a significant partner to America, to become part of its culture/ psyche and therefore create an enduring relationship? Business.

Anything else will be a relationship built on sand. Strategies and tactics by themselves will not mean much except for a short span of time.

I have already written a lot. I can elaborate on some of the nuances, but hopefully this perspective will help.

EyelessInGaza, I must caution against oversimplification of the American psyche. There is more to America and Americans than business, it is one component of our value system but surely we are more likely driven by the “doing the right thing” ethos. Of course we do occasionally get it wrong, but yet we intervene even when intervention is likely to be bad for business.
To be honest, I am somewhat miffed at your assertion that so many Americans have sacrificed so much for the American equivalent of the East India Company.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

While only partly relevant to the discussion, I'd like to clarify the error we (myself included) make about 'ignorant Americans'.

Granted that many Americans have less than a perfect understanding of the basics of the world outside America. The capital of England for example!

However, the Americans who know, know. To put it briefly, I never appreciated the hidden depths of interest/ knowledge in Americans until I took a bus ride from NY to Pennsylvania next to an obviously homeless African American man. Who taught me more about the theory of Yoga - part of my culture - than I had ever known.

 

[muse]

By "Interest" I meant "business"

Mr. Rashid also demonstrates a need for a refresher on representative governance. Given that he's Pakistani, however, this is forgiven. It's premise that we're compliant ignorants duped by our leadership really, however, isn't.

No nation is more aware or connected globally than America. We trade globally at a hyper level, even still. It is how we make our living-a mercantile nation on two oceans. That means it's citizens are disproportionately engaged in global security and commerce functions daily throughout this nation and elsewhere overseas.

Nevermind the countless thousands of American families who've lived overseas as part of our extensive military and diplomatic obligations since 1945. Or our university system where many of you become our first encounter with foreigners.

Ah, I could go on but it's silly...and incorrect. Embrace as you shall but let the buyer beware that this is more opium for your pipes

I think your protest is misplaced - I go back and forth between the states and other parts of the world and I think Mr. Rashid is spot on - what Mr. Rashid is pointing to is not something congential or systemic, but rather that Americans were more comfortable, allowed greater latitude and deference than they are known to have done so before - theyh were certainly not as questioning as they had been before -- for them it seem to all converge and they would look the other way while the needful was performed. They did indeed trade much liberty for the promise of secuirty and Mr. Rashid is also spot when he suggests that perhaps no other administration sold as much insecurity and or threats of insecurity to a public eager to buy.

I think the revelation that the 4 memos (torture memos) is just a tip of the iceberg and much will be reversed or reframed, rather.

Your point about thousands of American familes living overseas is taken but perhaps you wearing blinkers in not seeing what it was like for other muslim and non-anglo American, not necessarily overseas but in the U.S. itself.

Mr. Rashid is English trained and was for some 10 years involved as a guerilla in the Balouch insurrgency of the 70's, however; suggestion that his point of view is innocent of the workings of U.S. society are not convincing - in any case the man explained or related his experience, there is no right or wrong to it, it was just his experience.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

EyelessInGaza, I must caution against oversimplification of the American psyche. There is more to America and Americans than business, it is one component of our value system but surely we are more likely driven by the “doing the right thing” ethos. Of course we do occasionally get it wrong, but yet we intervene even when intervention is likely to be bad for business.
To be honest, I am somewhat miffed at your assertion that so many Americans have sacrificed so much for the American equivalent of the East India Company.

Death By Chocolate, anything I write on this subject without writing several pages, or a book, is likely to be an oversimplification. I had hoped to cut to the heart of this thread by offering my insight into the question asked.

At the risk of derailing this thread - Of course there are nuances. To non-Americans, here's one question. How much do Americans contribute in philanthropy around the world? Hint: The answer is in billions of USD.

Question: How much do Indians, we who pride ourselves on dharma, etc donate to non - religious charities? Hint: Try the square root of **** all. I am sure Pakistan is the same.

Americans are also naively idealistic. I love that about them. They are a vital, courageous people. I hold beautiful (no other word for it) the value placed on speaking the truth in American society; so different form an Asian perspective where, in our relations with outsiders, dissembling is the first response.

But - business is an important part of understanding them. It is not the only part by a long shot. But it is key.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

what Mr. Rashid is pointing to is not something congential or systemic, but rather that Americans were more comfortable, allowed greater latitude and deference than they are known to have done so before - theyh were certainly not as questioning as they had been before -- for them it seem to all converge and they would look the other way while the needful was performed.

I have in fact wondered whether the same process is at work in the Obama presidency - 'fear/justice/vengeance' being replaced with the 'popularity/excitement' of a Presidency representing 'change and hope', as the factor allowing for 'latitude and deference'.

 

[muse]

AM

I don't think so, I think if you look at who voted for him, I think you can make a case that it's not the same America - The wars have been going on for longer than WWII and my sense is that Americans are tired of wars and of course this financial meltdown has made people more weary

 

[TruthSeeker]

AM

I don't think so, I think if you look at who voted for him, I think you can make a case that it's not the same America - The wars have been going on for longer than WWII and my sense is that Americans are tired of wars and of course this financial meltdown has made people more weary

American are extremely weary of wars. The general American public is very isolationist and inward looking. "We" pay very little attention to the doings in other nations or cultures. I think any President that gets the US in another conflict of the magnitude of Afghanistan, let alone Iraq, will see poll numbers go to zero and be quickly abandoned by his fellow party politicians. From that point of view, the US is probably as much of a "paper tiger" right now as it has been since 1941. Now is the time to cause trouble in the world if you have a mind to, the US ain't likely to answer the bell.

 

[dbc]

I set aside my iPod and listened to POTUS 08 on XM satellite radio for close to 6 months before the elections. For me Obama stood out because of his ability to seek counsel and make informed decisions. Everything Obama has done so far with regard to foreign policy is just good o’l fashioned common sense. I believe his mantra is collaboration in contrast to his predecessor policy of coercion –recall W’s now famous “you are either with us or against us” rant. With regard to Pakistan, he has limited wriggle room, honestly it is a kerfuffle. But I believe he is acutely aware that Pakistan holds the key to success, rest assured he has a plan B in the event Pakistan is not swayed by military / economic aid.

 

[S-2]

It's my belief that the essence of U.S. global security strategy postures an economically dominant America. It does so by recognizing and focusing that our greatest advantage lies in the global trading network.

In turn, that network is reliant upon equal access by all nations-large or small-to market priced energy and the safe transportation of such and end products from one global village to another.

This trade synergism invariably includes America in some form or fashion from which we derive our marginal profit. Thus the raising forth of healthy economic markets everywhere is to our advantage...and so many others.

We've an air force, army, and navy designed to assure equal access by all to energy without reference to machinations by aspiring regional hegemons who see this as a launching pad to temporal glory, or the fracturing of the global market into inter-regional zero-sum energy-based competition.

In short, the expansion of the global village plays to our success and our navy, air force, and army are the guarantors of the conditions which facilitate such.

What spins off that for the rest of mankind, I suppose, is for others to decide.

Thanks.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

For the 2nd and 3rd world countries---america cares less if you get into a business partnership with them or not. There are no 2nd and 3rd world countries left that can be of interest to the united states except for india. To any other country, they can dictate their terms.

The only way you can have america on your side is if you make the americans learn to like you as a people. If they like you---then their politicians will like you as well. If the american public doesnot care for you---then whomsoever you are, they could care less. One criteria needs to be that you have to be an underdog and act as one in front of them all the time. Which means that you have to play the vanity card to the fullest.

Now for the other point---about ex millitary personale in civilian jobs---I would like to commend "Eyeless---" for being so observant. Most pakistanis have no clue what the american mindset is---who they are---how educated they are---you sitting with somebody next to you in a bar in somewhere in rural utah and the guy has travelled half the world and is more knowledgable about your homeland than you are. Indeed the u s has been a fascinating place.

Now coming back to our issue---how to get back on track?

 

[zraver]

Now for the other point---about ex millitary personale in civilian jobs---I would like to commend "Eyeless---" for being so observant. Most pakistanis have no clue what the american mindset is---who they are---how educated they are---you sitting with somebody next to you in a bar in somewhere in rural utah and the guy has travelled half the world and is more knowledgable about your homeland than you are. Indeed the u s has been a fascinating place.

I have never traveled outside North America as if I can avoid flying I will. That being said I have been to Canada and Mexico and every US state but Hawaii. I work as a tutor at a University that has hundreds of mostly Asian and Eastern European students, and although white, the focus of my thesis research deals with African American issues. My circle of people I hang out with and do things with ranges from my sons uber redneck step father to friends where color does not mater, wheel horsepower does. I'd like to think I am a good representation of the liberal/right American. I like guns, think a small government is good, religion in schools is bad, marriage is between 2 adults who choose to enter into a contractual arrangement and that if some one wants to kill my countrymen then its time to squish them like a bug. I am a nationalist, I love the flag, my country and the ideals it should stand for. But I am a realist and when the tresspass is great enough I will cry in protest.

 

[Rabbit.Rabbit]

Eyeless, great posts mate.