US-PAKISTAN RELATIONSHIP

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Today, most Pakistanis do not want to be friends with the USA and, unfortunately, most Americans could care less.

If mutual interests will not be accommodated by the other, then is that not justification of the Pakistani position of maintaining ties with some Taliban factions, given that the US formed a GoA comprised of anti-Pakistan warlords and criminals that had committed horrible atrocities of their own, including ethnic massacres?

If the US is going to support one type of criminal group to advance its own interests, why should we not support another 'criminal group' to protect our own interests?

 

[TruthSeeker]

If mutual interests will not be accommodated by the other, then is that not justification of the Pakistani position of maintaining ties with some Taliban factions, given that the US formed a GoA comprised of anti-Pakistan warlords and criminals that had committed horrible atrocities of their own, including ethnic massacres?

If the US is going to support one type of criminal group to advance its own interests, why should we not support another 'criminal group' to protect our own interests?

Well, interesting that you are admitting what you are doing. As for forming a GoA that includes warlords and ethnic killers, I suppose that that is all there was in Afghanistan to work with at the time. We chose the anti-Afghan Taliban set of them. If that meant they were also anti-Pakistan, I guess that also shows WHO you were in bed with in Afghanistan. How is that working out for you in Pakistan? Are they fun bedmates??

 

[jeypore]

There were 3000 lying dead in the u s of a---u s of a mainland, never touched ---never attacked before in any manner---a sleeping giant was hurt---and a lots of pakistanis were excited about how the giant was shaking at its knees after the actions. It has become sort of a joke in pakistan---now didn't it. Pakistanis were commenting on the amwerican news media in a very non-chalant manner as to how the giant was brought down to its knees and we all heard it on cnn and other channels---we were so happy in our hearts and souls that here is the nation who decieved us in our time of need---which stole our 650 million dollars---and stole our F 16's from us---and made us weak in front of our enemies-

So this makes it all worth while to harbour talibans and al queda, a great pay back system. I am really surprise to hear this from a Senior member such as your calibur. If the US of A, as you put it, left you high and dry, why not preach the youngesters, that a lesson was learnt and we must do it on our own. Why not this jiltting by the US, made you stronger at heart for your country sake.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Well, interesting that you are admitting what you are doing. As for forming a GoA that includes warlords and ethnic killers, I suppose that that is all there was in Afghanistan to work with at the time. We chose the anti-Afghan Taliban set of them. If that meant they were also anti-Pakistan, I guess that also shows WHO you were in bed with in Afghanistan. How is that working out for you in Pakistan? Are they fun bedmates??

Well, as are you admitting to what your government has done - put ethnic killers, drug lords (whose trade incidentally supports the very taliban you fight) in power.

My point is that there is no moral high ground here for the US to claim - you acted in your interests to support criminals as did we.

As for how the people we supported worked out for us, well, the ones we actually supported - Mullah Omar, Haqqani, Hekmetyar etc. - have so far not not attacked Pakistan. It is the Pakistani Taliban, risen out of the outrage against the US invasion of Afghanistan, that are giving us grief.

 

[muse]

Jeypore

You misunderstand - read again and read it in context of the first post.

 

[jeypore]

Jeypore

You misunderstand - read again and read it in context of the first post.

My deepest apolgize to you and Mr. mastan Khan. you were right, did misunderstand!!

 

[MastanKhan]

Mastan Khan, a partnership also cannot be sustained if the parties are not honest about the motives of the other. In the above paragraph you fall for the self-serving hypothesis that the US move into Afghanistan was imperialist. It was retribution, pure and simple, followed with a desire to prevent a recurrence of the al Qaeda attack. You can never be my friend if you cannot or will not accept my honest explanation of my motives for an action that you disagree with. As a friend, you may fault my reasoning, or call me stupid, but you cannot deny that I think what I think. Today, most Pakistanis do not want to be friends with the USA and, unfortunately, most Americans could care less.

Truthseeker,

The only dishonest party in this relationship were the americans. Why do you think the paks don't want to be friends with the americans---every effort not made by americans let Bin laden get away---3 times atleast within gun sights---once at tora bora---How is Mehsud able to act freely---why isn't he targeted by drone attacks---whatever happened to the hammer and anvil approach between the u s millitary and pak army---the only troops issing in action were the americans---because they had no troops to spare---you put 50000 more troops in afghanistan and lets us talk about the insurgency then.

This insurgency would vanish in the first 60 days. When it came to the u s, pakistanis never played their cards right---and neither did the americans---the famous saying by an anonymous divorce attorney always stand good---it is her side of the story---there is his side of the stopry---and then there is the truth..

As I stated earlier---pak american relationship has a shelf life of 6---8 years at the most---Truthseeker---you have no clue ifonly the u s had released and tranche of 3---5sqdrns of F 16's to pakistan within the first 6 months of war in afghanistan---the paks would torn apart the alqaeda heirarchy as if it never existed---you have no clue how important the F 16 have been to the paks---sir there are two fools in this equation---there is pakistan---there is the u s of a and then there is a loser---afghanistan---and there is a winner india.

Americans need to get down from their high horses--get down to the ground level and think with an open mind---why is it always that they leave at bad terms with pakistan---pakistanis maybe wrong sometime---but they cannot be always wrong---.

Truthseeker---in your personal relationship---your wife is not always wrong even though all men believe that heir wives are---even though in my heart I believe that I am always right and my wife is always wrong---but then to have peace and stability in our household, I have learnt to admit--that I do mistakes as well. America needs to learn about its mistakes and admit to them---they have screwed up badly when it comes to dealing with pakistan.

 

[MastanKhan]

^ Quaid-e-Azam did not find Pakistan so we can be run over by "global powers". Pakistan must look at her own best intersts first and for the intersts of over 172 million Pakistanis.

As for identity, our identity is Pakistani and our ideology is Islam.

The region of Pakistan had many invaders before the coming of Islam. Aryans, Huns, Greeks, Persians, Turks, Afghans, Arabs, Mughals all conquered the region of Pakistan so yes we see people with mixed gene pools in our population. The only invaders we didnt mix in with were the British.

Hi,

How do you think we became a nuclear power. It was with the help of the americans and many other nations. My uncle---one of the pioneers of of the pakistani atomic bomb program studied ind britain and then worked in the u s of a like most other pakistani scientists of that era. They had friends and colleagues in differnt nations of the world with whom they had worked and those people helped us in our time of ned---regardless if we paid them money---they helped us because they were our friends.

The Reagan u s of a knowingly let us become a nuclear power---Reagan never objected to it one time and nobdy else could force their will upon him--because he was a strong man---but then George Bush senior didnot object to it as well---but he was politically not as strong as Reagan---he had to succumb under pressure.

The global powers are just a means to an end. It is just how you use them and utilize their strength and resources to your advantage---and that seperates the men from the boys.

 

[Rabbit.Rabbit]

Well, as are you admitting to what your government has done - put ethnic killers, drug lords (whose trade incidentally supports the very taliban you fight) in power.

My point is that there is no moral high ground here for the US to claim - you acted in your interests to support criminals as did we.

As for how the people we supported worked out for us, well, the ones we actually supported - Mullah Omar, Haqqani, Hekmetyar etc. - have so far not not attacked Pakistan. It is the Pakistani Taliban, risen out of the outrage against the US invasion of Afghanistan, that are giving us grief.

Agnostic Muslim, they say that sometimes the ends justify the means. Here you are ignoring the end altogether - a progressive Afghanistan with a democratic government, and quite conveniently I might add, in order to force some moral equivalence between Pakistani and American actions.

Sure, the Americans have drug lords and criminals in power - but as Truthseeker says you have to work with what you have. This is hardly the same thing as supporting a regime based on the vile principles of a certain Madarassa in western Pakistan which first created the Taliban, with no vision for democracy or development.

The Americans clearly learnt their lessons from the Russian war, but it seems that Pakistan is still unable to do that.

 

[MastanKhan]

Agnostic Muslim, they say that sometimes the ends justify the means. Here you are ignoring the end altogether - a progressive Afghanistan with a democratic government, and quite conveniently I might add, in order to force some moral equivalence between Pakistani and American actions.

Sure, the Americans have drug lords and criminals in power - but as Truthseeker says you have to work with what you have. This is hardly the same thing as supporting a regime based on the vile principles of a certain Madarassa in western Pakistan which first created the Taliban, with no vision for democracy or development.

The Americans clearly learnt their lessons from the Russian war, but it seems that Pakistan is still unable to do that.

Hello Rabbit Rabbit,

That must be the joke of last century---" us learnig lessons from the russian war"----I gues you totally missed it. The u s had learnt nothing from the russian war---actually it had taken every chance and utilized every oppurtunity to terminate the russian hand---people who were experts on the russian issue by Bill / Hillary Clinton.

The war in afghanistan started with the same ignorant mindset of shock and awe and techinal superiority---american flyers were high on their laser guided / precision weaponery. As a matter of fact---americans turned out to be a bigger failure that the russians---wheras most of the population was against the russians---over here they were with the americans in the begining---but then truly---they being americans---they alienated the rest of the country against them as well. So---lessons from russian wars---this joke holds a lots of tragedy----hundreds of thousands of dead afghanis---because the american forces came into afghanistan without any goal---oh yes---there was a talk of the goal---but truly no implementation of it as was dearly needed.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,


Ends never justify the means---they never did---they never will---because once the threshold is crossed---there is not much difference between the two opposing sides.

The british and the americans have learnt to live with the poppy crop---now they are paying out dividends if a poppy crop is destroyed by mistake or an error.

With a minimal number of troops, the americans have a hard time patrolling their assets---if it was not for the instant availability of air power---this fiasco would have been over a lot sooner.

Hopefull the americans can bring in a few thousand more soldiers into the fray and take care of the unfinished business. This war has dragged on for too long---there has to be at end to it---regardless of what it is.

 

[Rabbit.Rabbit]

Mastan Khan, IMHO anybody who argues that ends NEVER justify the means is fooling himself.
Should Pakistan have bombed Indian cities and killed civilians during wartime? Did the ends - victory for Pakistan - justify the means then?

Just one small example to think about.

 

[S-2]

I settle for some decent source that says hundreds of thousands of afghans dead since 2001. Hasn't been close.

High on our weapons, we did what we did. A few C.I.A., some special forces, tossed some bombs, paid off some guys and down came the taliban. No biggie. Last thing we thought after reading all those books about the hardened afghani guerrilla was that they'd just...split. Like Iraq, therein lies the problem.

We hadn't killed enough bad guys.

Someday, we'll really get. You go HARD to save lives in the long term by killing your enemies, suspected enemies, and your maybe enemies. In both places, we let too many melt away only to return at their convenience.

Thought they'd been "shocked and awed" and they had. But not forever. Caught their breath, thought about it a bit, and came back fresh.

"Ya gotta be cruel to be kind..." Dave Edmunds

 

[waraich66]

@ S2

US need first to understand what is wrong with US policies in muslim world?

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

As I stated in one of my other posts---the U S needs to understand that pakistan is not wrong all the time---and neither is the U S right everytime.

What I have missed from the begining of this campaign is the lack of pakistani media resources being used by the u s and pakistani govt to their advantage. An all out effort was not enforced to alienate the public against OBL.

The americans should have looked at this problem through the pakistani eyes---they should have tried to understand this problem with the pakistani mindset---they should have taken steps to compliment the efforts of the pakistanis to tackle the issues.

But the reason they didnot do so was ---predictably they entered the field with a lots of cockiness---resulting, they entered the field ill-prepared for the task at hand---their anger over the loss of life in NY, clouded their power of judgement and curtailed their cool and calm analytical approach towards the impending conflict---they entered the field with revenge on their minds---they didnot get ready to a 110% of their abilities---the way the wars were fought in afghanistan, that lesson was totally forgotten---possibly never learnt in the first place either. The tenacity and the ability of the afghan warrior to survive under the harshest of the conditions over a long period of time were hardly considered---laslty but not the least---the inhospitable terrain---the high altitude warfare---was never factored into the planning.

The question arise as to how is it possible for so many things not to have happened---how could there be such a massive intelligence failure---this is not how america works---thsi is not the way of the american ceo who wants to make a successful raid to own and takeover another corporation---where every I is dotted and every T is crossed---and every thing is cross checked and then cross checked for the ultimate time before the start of the raid---.

There have been so many flaws in this war---there have flaws within the flaws over the years---there have been so many failures that make me reach the conclusion that the true professionals were not behind the planning---my sad conclusion is that the war room was taken over by the religious zealots---who wanted to fight a righteous campaign---it ended up with religion on both sides of the equations---the right wing religious fundamentalists on the opposing ends---this war----this aggression was doomed for failure right from the day of its inception.