US & NATO Leaving Afghanistan Requires Pak Support to Take Back Their Stuff

[newb3e]

why dont they use the most futuristic port ever built in all of the galaxies chaa chaa chaabahar! Indian brave troops will provide them security in afg and iran!

 

[Dalit]

This is very simple and naive thinking. The world doesn't work this straightforwardly.

The taliban wants the US to leave, Pakistan is conflicted by the issue, because of the civil war that's probably going to occur post withdrawal.

The f-16s Blk52 are still the most advanced fighters in PAF inventory, and PAF still heavily relies on them as Frontline fighters.

China and CPEC aren't the only investor or investments in Pakistan, there are many others, China just happens to be the largest.

Don't belittle Chinese investments in Pakistan. They are not only the largest, but also the most significant. The US or any Western country in comparison hands out meagre economic aid and money for specific projects which are related to their interests. China invests money in infrastructure, energy, education, housing etc. There is a day and night difference.

The F-16 Block 52 cannot be compared to JF-17 Block 3. The JF-17 Block 3 has a better radar and better weapons package. Secondly, the PAF cannot freely use F-16 Block 52 without Uncle Sam's permission. There is a contract signed between Pakistan and US. The JF-17 can be used freely without Uncle Sam's interference. Day and night difference.

US does not need pakistan. The equipment has been given away to Afghan troops already, the rest of equipment used by 15K of US soldiers will also go to afghans. Aircrafts and some helis will be flown out.. not sure where do u guys live.

It is funny you say that. Let's suppose that everything you say is true. Tell me one other thing. Will papa America leave disgraced or will it leave as a winner i.e. mission accomplished?

 

[Mohsin A]

- Release AH-1Z cobra Helicopters.
- Give Turkey Engines for them to be able to export ATAK Helicopters to Pak.
- Pay us our outstanding dues for our participation in your war.

Above 3 points must be met before should we talk about allowing them to use our territory to safely withdraw their equipment and forces

 

[Dalit]

Pakistan's biggest export partner is the USA last I checked. A large amount of Pakistanis live in the US and west, and a large portion of top leadership is sold out to the USA. Then there is the carrot on the stick AKA F-16s.

Keeping the USA friendly to us is important due to their increased collaboration with India against China which may as well be directed against Pakistan if the USA wishes.

So keeping the US in Afghanistan forces them to have some reason to maintain good ties with us.

The trade figures between Pakistan and US are peanuts. Absolutely a mockery. Roughly standing at $6.6 billion. This is nothing in terms of trade volume.

You claim all these things yet papa America continues to hate and blame Pakistan for all their problems. If Pak top leadership is really sold to the US, shouldn't the US be happy and not vilifying Pakistan 24/7? I don't understand this argument. Where did it go wrong for the US if Pak top leaders are in their pocket?

LOL the F-16 has been replaced by JF-17. Don't put too much faith in the F-16. It is an outdated fighter that most operators around the world are replacing with other more capable fighters. The funny thing is that the US won't even allow Pakistan to aqcuire used F-16s from other countries. Every country that Pakistan approaches for used F-16s the US blocks the deal.

No matter how much fan boys try to sugercoat and deflect from reality, the truth is bitter. US Pak relations are temporary and exploitative. Period.

 

[xyx007]

Pakistan is playing its role what Allah created for , a beacon of peace among the world.

Somehow Pak manages to "steal" the limelight!!! Despite weeping and crying of the Indians:

• The KSA/UAE now need Pak more than ever before
• Turkey badly needs Pak
• Chinese ambitions pass through Pak
• The US folks will need Pak till the end

 

[arjunk]

The trade figures between Pakistan and US are peanuts. Absolutely a mockery. Roughly standing at $6.6 billion. This is nothing in terms of trade volume.

You claim all these things yet papa America continues to hate and blame Pakistan for all their problems. If Pak top leadership is really sold to the US, shouldn't the US be happy and not vilifying Pakistan 24/7? I don't understand this argument. Where did it go wrong for the US if Pak top leaders are in their pocket?

LOL the F-16 has been replaced by JF-17. Don't put too much faith in the F-16. It is an outdated fighter that most operators around the world are replacing with other more capable fighters. The funny thing is that the US won't even allow Pakistan to aqcuire used F-16s from other countries. Every country that Pakistan approaches for used F-16s the US blocks the deal.

No matter how much fan boys try to sugercoat and deflect from reality, the truth is bitter. US Pak relations are temporary and exploitative. Period.

Whatever pathetic amount trade with the US is, it is still the largest partner we have.

The F-16 was used to shoot down both the Su-30mki and MiG-21. It is in no way outdated. Only fanboys believe JF-17 is superior to the F-16. Maybe Block-3 is at par with the Block 52. But Block 3 isn't even in service yet.

All diplomatic relations are temporary and exploitative, except maybe the ones with Turkey. Geopolitics aren't based on emotions, but on mutual intrests. Pissing off the US over emotional reasons never ends well, you can ask Iran, Iraq, Libya and North Korea. That is the cold and bitter truth, and until China can dream of gaining even half of the US's global influence then the US will dictate the terms to the rest of the world.

 

[Dalit]

Whatever pathetic amount trade with the US is, it is still the largest partner we have.

The F-16 was used to shoot down both the Su-30mki and MiG-21. It is in no way outdated. Only fanboys believe JF-17 is superior to the F-16. Maybe Block-3 is at par with the Block 52. But Block 3 isn't even in service yet.

All diplomatic relations are temporary and exploitative, except maybe the ones with Turkey. Geopolitics aren't based on emotions, but on mutual intrests. Pissing off the US over emotional reasons never ends well, you can ask Iran, Iraq, Libya and North Korea. That is the cold and bitter truth, and until China can dream of gaining even half of the US's global influence then the US will dictate the terms to the rest of the world.

It is peanuts and China has already made up for this a 100 times over through CPEC. It is only a matter of time before China overtakes the US trade figures. Not very hard in my opinion considering how small the trade figures are.

LOL Who says the F-16 was used to shot down Indian flying coffin? Even PAF and the airchief have confirmed that JF-17 was used to shoot down IAF flying coffin.

Not all relations are exploitative and temporary. In fact most relations are normal and based on give and take. Look at various blocs around the world. EU nations cooperate. ASEAN bloc cooperates. Nothing temporary or exploitative about it. Pakistan should do the same and luckily it is. China Pakistan cooperation is a clear example of regional cooperation.

Pakistan is not Iraq, Libya or NK. The last time I checked Iran survived pretty well. They are sanctioned, but they are not dying. There are hardships, but the people are coping well. The Iranians don't go around shouting and screaming how bad their leaders are or how bad their country is. The Iranian people are smart and understand the situation. At least the majority of them. They are not like us willing to sell themselves for a few dollars. They are patient and understand the bigger picture. We are a nation who allow others to invade our sovereignty. That is right. This is part of our disgraceful history.

Only a fool would shudder with fear believing that the US can end Pakistan. This is the same old excuse some of us used during the WoT. The Americans will send Pakistan back to the Stone Age LOL We all know how badly US/NATO WoT damaged Pakistan. We lost billions in our economy and lost countless lives. Yet some of us still believe that we must shudder in fear and take US dictation to survive. No, we don't. Today we are in control. We shunned the Western world and went on with our business. We made CPEC a reality whilst US/NATO screamed in pain and anguish. We know why US Western media is obsessed with CPEC. Giving it negative coverage day and night. Suddenly the Western world cares about Balochistan and Gwadar. Places they didn't even know existed. Pakistan and China did the unthinkable. Both are involved in strengthening their defence ties through joint ventures. From frigates to fighter jets. You name it. What has the US given to Pakistan? Economic bribe that ended up with corrupt members of society and accusations to do more. Drone strikes that killed innocent people. IMF debt and hatred.

The JF-17 Block 3 would mincemeat the F-16 Block 52 all day long. It would be equal to Block 70 in many respects. The Americans got nothing against Pakistan. Today Pakistan facilitates the Taliban talks. It is the US deep state that is on the backfoot in every way imaginable. What can the US really do? Arm-twist Pakistan further through economic blackmail? FATF blacklisting? The Americans will suffer the consequences of such a move as Pakistan totally moves into Chinese orbit. I dare the Americans do such a thing. I absolutely dare them.

 

[arjunk]

LOL Who says the F-16 was used to shot down Indian flying coffin?

... PAF says so. The AIM-120C which Indians pulled out of their dead Flanker's @ss is also proof an F-16 was used.

Only a fool would shudder with fear believing that the US can end Pakistan. This is the same old excuse some of us used during the WoT. The Americans will send Pakistan back to the Stone Age LOL We all know how badly US/NATO WoT damaged Pakistan. We lost billions in our economy and lost countless lives. Yet some of us still believe that we must shudder in fear and take US dictation to survive. No, we don't. Today we are in control. We shunned the Western world and went on with our business. We made CPEC a reality whilst US/NATO screamed in pain and anguish. We know why US Western media is obsessed with CPEC. Giving it negative coverage day and night. Suddenly the Western world cares about Balochistan and Gwadar. Places they didn't even know existed. Pakistan and China did the unthinkable. Both are involved in strengthening their defence ties through joint ventures. From frigates to fighter jets. You name it. What has the US given to Pakistan? Economic bribe that ended up with corrupt members of society and accusations to do more. Drone strikes that killed innocent people. IMF debt and hatred.

You said it yourself. The extent of damge Americans did to us with only partial, covert ,support to anti Pakistan elements has resulted in the death of 100,000 Pakistanis and set the country back by a decade from the WoT alone. Now imagine if they could rally the entire world against us, and then openly carry out all out conventional and unconventional attacks on us as they please.

Pakistan is not Iraq, Libya or NK. The last time I checked Iran survived pretty well. They are sanctioned, but they are not dying. There are hardships, but the people are coping well. The Iranians don't go around shouting and screaming how bad their leaders are or how bad their country is. The Iranian people are smart and understand the situation. At least the majority of them. They are not like us willing to sell themselves for a few dollars. They are patient and understand the bigger picture. We are a nation who allow others to invade our sovereignty. That is right. This is part of our disgraceful history.

That is only because of a combination of Zia's craftiness and the US's reliance on us at the time. The Israelis had already planned a strike against our nuclear facilities but the Indians talked some sense into them. Half of the country was a warzone not too many years ago, and we all know the US would use this as an excuse to seize our nukes.

The JF-17 Block 3 would mincemeat the F-16 Block 52 all day long. It would be equal to Block 70 in many respects. The Americans got nothing against Pakistan. Today Pakistan facilitates the Taliban talks. It is the US deep state that is on the backfoot in every way imaginable. What can the US really do? Arm-twist Pakistan further through economic blackmail? FATF blacklisting? The Americans will suffer the consequences of such a move as Pakistan totally moves into Chinese orbit. I dare the Americans do such a thing. I absolutely dare them.

The JF-17 block 3 may mincemeat the F-16 Block 52, assuming both pilots are equal in skill, but the fact remains that a single block 3 has not been operationally deployed yet so the Block 52 is still the best plane of the PAF. And I do not recall JF-17s being publicly declared as nuclear capable either.

 

[cloud4000]

- Release AH-1Z cobra Helicopters.
- Give Turkey Engines for them to be able to export ATAK Helicopters to Pak.
- Pay us our outstanding dues for our participation in your war.

Above 3 points must be met before should we talk about allowing them to use our territory to safely withdraw their equipment and forces

Even as US/NATO presence in Afghanistan was at its peak Pakistan failed to use its leverage. Now with US troops down to 2500, Pakistan is going to use its leverage? Not with FATF and IMF being held over Pakistan's head.

Sorry, the opportunity to use leverage against US has passed.

 

[Dalit]

... PAF says so. The AIM-120C which Indians pulled out of their dead Flanker's @ss is also proof an F-16 was used.

You said it yourself. The extent of damge Americans did to us with only partial, covert ,support to anti Pakistan elements has resulted in the death of 100,000 Pakistanis and set the country back by a decade from the WoT alone. Now imagine if they could rally the entire world against us, and then openly carry out all out conventional and unconventional attacks on us as they please.

That is only because of a combination of Zia's craftiness and the US's reliance on us at the time. The Israelis had already planned a strike against our nuclear facilities but the Indians talked some sense into them. Half of the country was a warzone not too many years ago, and we all know the US would use this as an excuse to seize our nukes.


The JF-17 block 3 may mincemeat the F-16 Block 52, assuming both pilots are equal in skill, but the fact remains that a single block 3 has not been operationally deployed yet so the Block 52 is still the best plane of the PAF. And I do not recall JF-17s being publicly declared as nuclear capable either.

JF-17 was used.

JF-17 Thunder used to shoot down Indian warplanes: DG ISPR

RAWALPINDI: Director General Inter-Services Public Relations Major General Asif Ghafoor has revealed that Pakistan used PAC JF-17 Thunder combat aircraft to shoot down Indian fighter jets violating...

www.thenews.com.pk

Just because Indians were holding some missile leftovers doesn't mean that this is gospel. I believe in our armed forces. So should you.

The Americans tried to balkanise and terrorise Pakistan, but they failed. That is what I said. The Americans have also failed in Afghanistan. Today the US/NATO have no easy way out of Afghanistan. Should Pakistan exploit this? To the fullest.

The Americans cannot do shit against Pakistan. Like I said, the only thing left is economic sanctions. Something the Americans have already tried in the past. Yet, Pakistan became stronger and more self-sufficient. I dare the Americans to try and economically sanction Pakistan again. That will be the final nail in the coffin.

LOL I have heard such stories before. Israel and US combined cannot touch Pakistani nukes. Let them try and see what happens. Pakistan is a strong nuclear power and that isn't changing for an eternity. Whether the US builds the largest embassy in Islamabad or stays for another century in Afghanistan.

PAF has full faith in JF-17. Why else would they be producing them in such numbers and iterations? The F-16 is a dead horse. Eventually all F-16s will be replaced with JF-17 fighters over the years. That is the future of F-16. The US is already on a losing streak in Pakistan. The Americans can try to play their sectarian games, but they will fail in that area too. The bitter truth is that US standing all over the world is shit.

 

[arjunk]

JF-17 was used.

JF-17 Thunder used to shoot down Indian warplanes: DG ISPR

RAWALPINDI: Director General Inter-Services Public Relations Major General Asif Ghafoor has revealed that Pakistan used PAC JF-17 Thunder combat aircraft to shoot down Indian fighter jets violating...

www.thenews.com.pk

Just because Indians were holding some missile leftovers doesn't mean that this is gospel. I believe in our armed forces. So should you

PAF has full faith in JF-17. Why else would they be producing them in such numbers and iterations? The F-16 is a dead horse. Eventually all F-16s will be replaced with JF-17 fighters over the years. That is the future of F-16. The US is already on a losing streak in Pakistan. The Americans can try to play their sectarian games, but they will fail in that area too. The bitter truth is that US standing all over the world is shit.

Of course PAF has full faith in JF-17, that's why they were used to strike Indian ground targets, and are set to replace the majority of the fleet. However, the PAF museum exhibit credits the Air to Air kills to F-16s, and the pilots awarded for the kills are F-16 pilots. Whether this is because they had more faith in the tried and tested F-16 or did not want to reveal the capabilities of the SD-10, I do not know.

The Americans cannot do shit against Pakistan. Like I said, the only thing left is economic sanctions. Something the Americans have already tried in the past. Yet, Pakistan became stronger and more self-sufficient. I dare the Americans to try and economically sanction Pakistan again. That will be the final nail in the coffin.

LOL I have heard such stories before. Israel and US combined cannot touch Pakistani nukes. Let them try and see what happens. Pakistan is a strong nuclear power and that isn't changing for an eternity. Whether the US builds the largest embassy in Islamabad or stays for another century in Afghanistan.

The Americans have done shit to Pakistan (see the terrorist attacks that ruined the country), and are capable of doing so conventionally too. IIRC Musharraf asked the PAF chief how long we could hold off the USA and got some ridiculous response like 3 hours or 30 minutes.

 

[Dalit]

Of course PAF has full faith in JF-17, that's why they were used to strike Indian ground targets, and are set to replace the majority of the fleet. However, the PAF museum exhibit credits the Air to Air kills to F-16s, and the pilots awarded for the kills are F-16 pilots. Whether this is because they had more faith in the tried and tested F-16 or did not want to reveal the capabilities of the SD-10, I do not know.

The Americans have done shit to Pakistan (see the terrorist attacks that ruined the country), and are capable of doing so conventionally too. IIRC Musharraf asked the PAF chief how long we could hold off the USA and got some ridiculous response like 3 hours or 30 minutes.

F-16 belongs in the museum. JF-17 is the main workhorse of PAF. You are basically admitting that JF-17 is PAF mainstay.

Let the Americans try. Just like we told them pack their bags and leave the Shamsi airbase in Balochistan this time we will expel their NGOs and diplomatic staff in Islamabad. The Americans are all bluff. Begging Pakistan to shun CPEC. All I can see is desperation.

 

[arjunk]

You are basically admitting that JF-17 is PAF mainstay

Yes, that's what I'm saying. However, the F-16 is the best air to air platform in PAF and was used on February 27th.

Let the Americans try. Just like we told them pack their bags and leave the Shamsi airbase in Balochistan this time we will expel their NGOs and diplomatic staff in Islamabad. The Americans are all bluff. Begging Pakistan to shun CPEC. All I can see is desperation.

All we can do is hope the Chinese don't end up like the Americans. We should aim to be self reliant.

 

[That Guy]

JF-17 Block 3 vs. F-16C: How Pakistan’s New Fighter Will Leave the American Fighting Falcon Far Behind

JF-17 Block 3 vs. F-16C: How Pakistan’s New Fighter Will Leave the American Fighting Falcon Far Behind

The JF-17 lightweight single engine fourth generation fighter program, jointly pursued by China’s Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex,

militarywatchmagazine.com

Pakistan’s PL-15 Missile Equipped JF-17 Block 3 is a Serious Game Changer - How India Can Respond to Regain Superiority

Pakistan’s PL-15 Missile Equipped JF-17 Block 3 is a Serious Game Changer - How India Can Respond to Regain Superiority

The Indian Air Force is planning massive investments fo the modernisation of its fighter fleet, and alongside ongoing orders for elite Su-30MKI heavyweight fighters and

militarywatchmagazine.com

Block 3 is still in its development phase, so your point is still wrong.

Don't belittle Chinese investments in Pakistan. They are not only the largest, but also the most significant. The US or any Western country in comparison hands out meagre economic aid and money for specific projects which are related to their interests. China invests money in infrastructure, energy, education, housing etc. There is a day and night difference.

The F-16 Block 52 cannot be compared to JF-17 Block 3. The JF-17 Block 3 has a better radar and better weapons package. Secondly, the PAF cannot freely use F-16 Block 52 without Uncle Sam's permission. There is a contract signed between Pakistan and US. The JF-17 can be used freely without Uncle Sam's interference. Day and night difference.

First, I'm not belittling Chinese investments or CPEC, stop being so emotional, and actually take my comment for what it is, and not what you think it is.

Pakistan, much like a poor man, is living off of debt and paycheck to paycheck. No matter how small other investments are, pull out even 1 is a devastating blow for Pakistan.

Second, the blk3 is still in development, so your point is flawed. Right now, as of this moment, the F-16s are still Pakitan's most potent fighters, that is a fact.

Third, these so called restrictions of PAF by the US are a myth. No such agreement exists, otherwise the US would have forced PAF to stop using them when Pakistan was under sanctions during the 90s. No such restrictions exist, and Pakistan is free to use the f-16s any which way it wants, as they belong to Pakistan alone. Other than the standard verbal assurances, when sales are made that Pakistan won't use them against the US or US interests, which is honestly meaningless, there are no such restrictions.

 

[That Guy]

... PAF says so. The AIM-120C which Indians pulled out of their dead Flanker's @ss is also proof an F-16 was used.

@Dalit

Spoiler

Here's what likely happened. A JF-17 Thunder was used to shoot down the Mig-21 bison, and an F-16 was likely used to shoot down the Su-30MKI. Its very likely that Pakistan kept quiet about the use of the F-16 because it knew India would whine about it's use.

[Edit] I realize that I'm just helping derail the thread. Can you guys still to the main topic?