US military strike on Pakistan advocated

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Proud to be pakistani,

Hi--how are you today---you need to read between the lines. The number 40 is just an assumptive number and not the actual number. It could be 140.

You are also getting very combative in your posts---there is no reason for that---a good begining would be to write and post your thinking and analysis so that we can have a thought provoking discussion instead of you taking a piggy back on somebody else's article.

There is a member H KHAN on our sister defnce info forum---you remind me of him---the only thing that guy could do was to critisize everyone. He never had any thing original to say---always posted articles from other web-sites and badgered everyone that he didnot like.

I am not saying that you are totally like him---but you are seemingly headed that way.

Musharraf admitted in his book and it also came out lately that pakistan didnot have any legitimate delivery system for its nukes even by 2002. Any nukes that would have been launched would have been either buried in the ground or from the flat bed of a truck.

The policy followed by Musharaf was correct at that time since the world was too touchy about terrorism. For Musharaf to downplay our capabilities in Missile and Nuclear Tech i see only one reason and that is to create the understanding in peoples mind that it was difficult to defend Pakistan against such strikes.

Pakistan always maintains a responsive attitude from 1998 onwards for any anti-Nuclear infrustructure Strikes. This i can assure you.


Futhermore, i would like to recon that considering the way the person was justifying his theories is what creates a response, if you feel green for Mr. Aryan, its your personal thinking... But India being a responsible nuclear Power ........ Check out the posts before you say what you say.. PLZ

 

[MastanKhan]

Ejaz,

Thanks for your comments.

Pakistan is in a very difficult position and there should be no doubts about the issue. It is our very own, who have decieved us and sold us lock stock and barrel to the outsiders.

I always like to give examples relating to my business and that is retail car sales----here in the U S of A. Even our top notch performers, ie our superstar sales people are not allowed to make any negative comments about the compnay, managers, the product, the weather, economy or about any other thing. Any thing that has a negative connotation is a big no no. And being a persistant with the negative approacvh would cost that person his or hers job from that company permanently with no chance to return.

Why do we do that---because negative people are deal killers---they are the bearers of bad vibes and bad attitudes. Our business is based upon positive intake, a positive attitude, a positive appearnce and positive conversation that is geared towards success. when a sales leaves his / her home, they are told to leave their problems at home and come to work with a smile on their face, head high, shouldres square and heals clicking. This is a part of basic sales training that we all go through.

The tragedy with pakistan is that there is a dearth of attitude trainers of people and politicians. people don't want to learn when to speak about certain issues and when to keep their mouth shut.

Look at israel----has maybe 250 plus nukes----but does anyone know about them---yes----but the israelis never threaten about them. They will use them when they need to.

Why do pakistanis threaten to use them all the time---maybe we didnot have the delivery system till very very recently.

Our politicians want to look important in front of the world---in that process they will sell their mothers and sisters and families and nation so that they can have their says on ABC, MSNBC, BBC or the CNN.

Pakistan needs to shut up these politicians talking about the nukes all the time---pakistan needs to bring down the threat level. The govt has not fought this war of words properly. Pakistanis as a whole have failed to stand together to protect their nukes---they are after showmanship all the time. When we are the worst enemy of our most precious assets, the assets which are the sole reason of maintaining our sovereignty at these turbulent times.

Why don't the people speak up against these politicians who bring out this issue----and I will say to that---the reason we don't do that---beacuse pakistanis as a whole maybe very clever people, but we are not an intelligent nation. We only do what serves our interest immediately. We care less what the future may hold for us because of our actions.

As I stated in one of my other articles that the whole of european union is against us and quite a few of known world news papers.

Even though there is a major threat scenario being presented by anybody who is somebody, but still the world is afraid of the nukes that pakistan maybe able to launch against any physical aggression. It maybe assumed that the U S can plaster pakistan to kingdom come, but the world may not be the same world the next day.

It is not a good excersize for the world white nations to put pakistan under so much pressure. Pakistan is not No Korea or Libya or Iran or some ex russian republic. Pakistanis have their own psyche which is totally different than any other nation. As pakistanis have not seen death, destruction from an invading army since their creation, they do not have clues what after life is going to be.

I believe that the world white nations need to step back and stop pressurizing pakistan. I believe that there is need to put cold water on this pressure cooker.

Musharraf never ever realized in the wildest of his dreams that Benazir would sell the pakistani nuclear program to the foreigners just to get back in their good graces.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Look at israel----has maybe 250 plus nukes----but does anyone know about them---yes----but the israelis never threaten about them. They will use them when they need to.

Why do pakistanis threaten to use them all the time---maybe we didnot have the delivery system till very very recently.

Needs not to MK... If the politics of the world requires Israel to threaten then it will, it is not threaten by Islamic States in Gulf and Africa so it doesnot respond... But everybody knows what they are capable of. They have a Nuclear Monoply in the region.

This is not true for Pakistan. Requires Pakistan to backfire whenever some developement is there from Indians. Pakistan geopolitical environment is not the same as Israel and you cannot compare them.

Its not what you think but its the believe by Others that is important and world understimates Pakistans Capabilities in Nuclear and Missile Reasearch and Still when Pakistan is Threatening they are only very basic threats.

Our politicians want to look important in front of the world---in that process they will sell their mothers and sisters and families and nation so that they can have their says on ABC, MSNBC, BBC or the CNN.


Pakistan needs to shut up these politicians talking about the nukes all the time---pakistan needs to bring down the threat level. The govt has not fought this war of words properly. Pakistanis as a whole have failed to stand together to protect their nukes---they are after showmanship all the time. When we are the worst enemy of our most precious assets, the assets which are the sole reason of maintaining our sovereignty at these turbulent times.

Agreed that this attitude is irresponsible.

Why don't the people speak up against these politicians who bring out this issue----and I will say to that---the reason we don't do that---beacuse pakistanis as a whole maybe very clever people, but we are not an intelligent nation. We only do what serves our interest immediately. We care less what the future may hold for us because of our actions..

Correct in every centimeter of Judgement.

As I stated in one of my other articles that the whole of european union is against us and quite a few of known world news papers.

Even though there is a major threat scenario being presented by anybody who is somebody, but still the world is afraid of the nukes that pakistan maybe able to launch against any physical aggression. It maybe assumed that the U S can plaster pakistan to kingdom come, but the world may not be the same world the next day.

It is not a good excersize for the world white nations to put pakistan under so much pressure. Pakistan is not No Korea or Libya or Iran or some ex russian republic. Pakistanis have their own psyche which is totally different than any other nation. As pakistanis have not seen death, destruction from an invading army since their creation, they do not have clues what after life is going to be.

I believe that the world white nations need to step back and stop pressurizing pakistan. I believe that there is need to put cold water on this pressure cooker.

Musharraf never ever realized in the wildest of his dreams that Benazir would sell the pakistani nuclear program to the foreigners just to get back in their good graces.

Remains to be seen what the outcome of this will be but Pakistan has seen such situations and political Turmoil before and will pass on... Mostly hyperbole of imaginations (US military invasion for Nuclear Asset possession or safeguarding etc)

DO keep in mind on no grounds and i mean on no grounds, Pakistan is Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan or Syria. Pakistan is far from these countries, too far and advanced in capabilities to be Un-Plugged by US at this stage.

 

[Waffen_SS]

Proud to be pakistani,

Musharraf admitted in his book and it also came out lately that pakistan didnot have any legitimate delivery system for its nukes even by 2002. Any nukes that would have been launched would have been either buried in the ground or from the flat bed of a truck.

Hello,

What Musharraf meant was that Pakistan had not yet developed warheads specifically designed for the Ghauri and Shaheen series of missiles. In addition, the command and control infrastructure for strategic rocket and missile forces take time to mature.

But this does not mean that Pakistan did not have deliverable warheads. PAEC along with PAF had developed a nuclear warhead capable of delivery by all PAF aircarft by 1987. During the fall of 1989 and beginning of 1990, PAF and PAEC carried out an elaborate exercise to improve and perfect the warhead designs and primarily their delivery techniques, by F16s and Mirages. Also by 1992 Pakistan had received M-11s from China that could carry a nuclear warhead.

Secondly during Kargil, Shaheen had just been tested while the Ghauri imported from North Korea had more of a symbolic value than anything else, being liquid fuelled and because nuclear warhead design and development was always done by PAEC/NDC amd not by KRL. Therefore, even if the Ghauris were deployed, which were supposedly KRL's product, these did not have any nuclear warheads ready for them.

Thirdly, it is very difficult to build miniaturized warheads for missiles with desired yields from HEU. The ideal material for that is plutonium, and advanced warhead desings need as little as 2-3 kg of PU-239. Correspondingly, about 20-25 kg of HEU is needed for the same warhead, which makes uranium bombs bulkier. Plus, a PU-239 device due to its less weight can easily accomodate some tritium that will make it more prowerful.

Now PAEC had just completed and commissioned the 50 MW Khushab plutonium production reactor in 1998, which was begun by Munir Ahmad Khan in 1986. Even though the New Labs reprocessing plant was ready as early as 1981, the lack of unsafeguarded plutonium prevented the construction of plutonium warheads, notwithstanding the fact that PAEC had developed and cold tested 4-5 different warhead designs during 1983-1992.

It would have take atleast 18-24 months for Khushab's spent fuel to cool down and for it to be subsequently reprocessed for plutonium extraction at PAEC's reprocessing plant at New Labs before the PU-239 is made available for use in a device. Then this PU-239 just like U-235, has to be converted into plutonium metal before being usable in a nuclear bomb. Even if the triggering mechanism and high explosives for the bomb are ready, unless the PU or HEU metal is available, the warhead for a missile, be it plutonium or uranium, cannot be made ready. So plutonium warheads for missiles could only be obtained once the plutonium was available which could not have been before 2000 at the latest.

And in 2001, the warhead design and manufacturing for missiles was shifted from PAEC/NDC to NESCOM under Dr. Samar Mubarakmand. With this was established the NCA, SPD and the Army Strategic Force Command.

Regards.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Hello,

What Musharraf meant was that Pakistan had not yet developed warheads specifically designed for the Ghauri and Shaheen series of missiles. In addition, the command and control infrastructure for strategic rocket and missile forces take time to mature.

Agreed to maturity of Command and Control but Warheads not been available for a payload of 700 ~ 1000Kg class in 1998, I am dissappointed. MIRV ability still not mastered but Warheads.... Come on man you really downgrading our abilities.

But this does not mean that Pakistan did not have deliverable warheads. PAEC along with PAF had developed a nuclear warhead capable of delivery by all PAF aircarft by 1987. During the fall of 1989 and beginning of 1990, PAF and PAEC carried out an elaborate exercise to improve and perfect the warhead designs and primarily their delivery techniques, by F16s and Mirages. Also by 1992 Pakistan had received M-11s from China that could carry a nuclear warhead.

As Strike capability M-11s were acquired until Pakistan Missile program Matures. Correct. So you answered your first part of post yourself, in 1992 M-11s procured and if pakistan cannot make 500kg class warheads then how and for what purpose would M-11s serve?. Pakistan had missile warhead capability long back..

Secondly during Kargil, Shaheen had just been tested while the Ghauri imported from North Korea had more of a symbolic value than anything else, being liquid fuelled and because nuclear warhead design and development was always done by PAEC/NDC amd not by KRL. Therefore, even if the Ghauris were deployed, which were supposedly KRL's product, these did not have any nuclear warheads ready for them.

Thirdly, it is very difficult to build miniaturized warheads for missiles with desired yields from HEU. The ideal material for that is plutonium, and advanced warhead desings need as little as 2-3 kg of PU-239. Correspondingly, about 20-25 kg of HEU is needed for the same warhead, which makes uranium bombs bulkier. Plus, a PU-239 device due to its less weight can easily accomodate some tritium that will make it more prowerful.

Come on dude, correct that Ghauri was based on No Dongs since it is liquid fueled, but as pakistan has always started all ways to persue in Nuclear Field also Uranium Enrichment and Plutonium, Same is the case with missiles, Ghauri (liquid Fueled) with KRL, and Shaheen (solid Fueled) with NDC.

All miniture Warheads are mostly Plutonium based but Boosted warheads require tritium and pakistan had this facility built in 1998, Uranium Warheads are easier to make then Plutonium ones. Pakistan Still is in developement of Plutonium based warheads, though Pakistan has few of these.

Now PAEC had just completed and commissioned the 50 MW Khushab plutonium production reactor in 1998, which was begun by Munir Ahmad Khan in 1986. Even though the New Labs reprocessing plant was ready as early as 1981, the lack of unsafeguarded plutonium prevented the construction of plutonium warheads, notwithstanding the fact that PAEC had developed and cold tested 4-5 different warhead designs during 1983-1992.

It would have take atleast 18-24 months for Khushab's spent fuel to cool down and for it to be subsequently reprocessed for plutonium extraction at PAEC's reprocessing plant at New Labs before the PU-239 is made available for use in a device. Then this PU-239 just like U-235, has to be converted into plutonium metal before being usable in a nuclear bomb. Even if the triggering mechanism and high explosives for the bomb are ready, unless the PU or HEU metal is available, the warhead for a missile, be it plutonium or uranium, cannot be made ready. So plutonium warheads for missiles could only be obtained once the plutonium was available which could not have been before 2000 at the latest.

And in 2001, the warhead design and manufacturing for missiles was shifted from PAEC/NDC to NESCOM under Dr. Samar Mubarakmand. With this was established the NCA, SPD and the Army Strategic Force Command.

Regards.

Agreed that before 2000 Pakistani warheads basically were based on Uranium but Pakistan had a test facility for Plutonium production at Nilore(PINSTECH) 10MW and 27MW test facilities long back supplied by US in 1960's. Their is no clue that Pakistan diverted the Plutonium Storage containers of 137 MW Kanuup safeguarded Nuclear Power Plant since IAEA can not open the containers and check. Pakistan had an unsafeguarded Reprocessing facilitity in Nilore (PINSTECH) way back.

Pakistan had both weapons type in 1998 it self but the giant leap was when 50 MW khushab reactor got operational, Pakistan has a tritium production facility and heavy water production facility in Khushab.

Pakistan has a large reprocessing facility in Kundian but little is know about its capacity, pakistan is making 2 Nuclear Reactors of 500MW class in the Khushab area near the old 50MW reactor.

Since Khushab based Nuclear Plants are not utilized for Electricity production, the purpose is to produce only Plutonium, but for Plutonium to be weapons grade you need to process it. Pakistan has the reprocessing facility but the world doesnot know about It.

Its PAEC at its best and Army i would say since they always started small and when they got the expertise then they showed the true potential. Before making Kahuta Uranium Enrichment facility with 10000 Centrifuge units they started a pilot plant at Sihala with 1000 Centrifuges. Before making the Reprocessing facility started by French orginally but abandoned in late 1970s due to pressure from US, operational, they tested their skills with Pilot reprocessing plant in Nilore (PINSTECH). Don't presume the capabilities of Pakistan in Nuclear and Missile Technology, Its more than it is stated in Public...

 

[Waffen_SS]

Agreed to maturity of Command and Control but Warheads not been available for a payload of 700 ~ 1000Kg class in 1998, I am dissappointed. MIRV ability still not mastered but Warheads.... Come on man you really downgrading our abilities.



As Strike capability M-11s were acquired until Pakistan Missile program Matures. Correct. So you answered your first part of post yourself, in 1992 M-11s procured and if pakistan cannot make 500kg class warheads then how and for what purpose would M-11s serve?. Pakistan had missile warhead capability long back..



Come on dude, correct that Ghauri was based on No Dongs since it is liquid fueled, but as pakistan has always started all ways to persue in Nuclear Field also Uranium Enrichment and Plutonium, Same is the case with missiles, Ghauri (liquid Fueled) with KRL, and Shaheen (solid Fueled) with NDC.

All miniture Warheads are mostly Plutonium based but Boosted warheads require tritium and pakistan had this facility built in 1998, Uranium Warheads are easier to make then Plutonium ones. Pakistan Still is in developement of Plutonium based warheads, though Pakistan has few of these.



Agreed that before 2000 Pakistani warheads basically were based on Uranium but Pakistan had a test facility for Plutonium production at Nilore(PINSTECH) 10MW and 27MW test facilities long back supplied by US in 1960's. Their is no clue that Pakistan diverted the Plutonium Storage containers of 137 MW Kanuup safeguarded Nuclear Power Plant since IAEA can not open the containers and check. Pakistan had an unsafeguarded Reprocessing facilitity in Nilore (PINSTECH) way back.

Pakistan had both weapons type in 1998 it self but the giant leap was when 50 MW khushab reactor got operational, Pakistan has a tritium production facility and heavy water production facility in Khushab.

Pakistan has a large reprocessing facility in Kundian but little is know about its capacity, pakistan is making 2 Nuclear Reactors of 500MW class in the Khushab area near the old 50MW reactor.

Since Khushab based Nuclear Plants are not utilized for Electricity production, the purpose is to produce only Plutonium, but for Plutonium to be weapons grade you need to process it. Pakistan has the reprocessing facility but the world doesnot know about It.

Its PAEC at its best and Army i would say since they always started small and when they got the expertise then they showed the true potential. Before making Kahuta Uranium Enrichment facility with 10000 Centrifuge units they started a pilot plant at Sihala with 1000 Centrifuges. Before making the Reprocessing facility started by French orginally but abandoned in late 1970s due to pressure from US, operational, they tested their skills with Pilot reprocessing plant in Nilore (PINSTECH). Don't presume the capabilities of Pakistan in Nuclear and Missile Technology, Its more than it is stated in Public...

Pakistan did not have its Tritium production/recovery facility in 1998, PAEC had set it up in 1987. All warheads tested in 1998 were boosted fission devices which used tritium.

There are two type of warheads, one is the gun-type, used in Hiroshima, which was a uranium bomb using about 60 Kg of HEU. The Nagasaki one was an implosion-type warhead that used 6-8 kg of PU-239. No nuclear state abopted the gun-type design after world war 2, simply because a gun-type device is very big in size, it requires much more fissile material, and it cannot be easily delivered. Whereas the implosion design offers the advantage of economy of fissile material and easy deliverability and flexibility in warhead types. All nations that built nuclear weapons have adopted the implosion design.

The gun-type design can only be used to build uranium bombs, and plutonium bombs cannot be built by this method, these require implosion, which is much difficult to build compared to uranium. But, Pakistan did not choose the gun-type design. It went for an implosion method design for both the plutonium and uranium cores as far back as 1973. The only difference in an implosion device is that they can either use plutonium or uranium metal in the core of the device.

The rest is the same package comprising a neutron source, U-238 reflector, high explosive lenses, and krytons as part of the trigger mechanism. However, they may vary in their theortical design in terms of the amount of fissile material needed, since only 2-4 kg of PU-239 is needed compared to 20-25 Kg of HEU for the same weapon. But the problem with uranium bombs is that the critixal mass of uranium is three times that of plutonium, thus making miniaturization of implosion based devices very difficult. Uranium bombs are bulkier in size and cannot be easily made compact because there is a limit after which uranium cannot be compacted.

Pakistan is building two more 50 MW reactors, along side the existing 50 MW Khushab reactor. The pilot reprocessing plant at Nilore in PINSTECH was not linked with the French reprocessing facility. The whole world knows about New Labs pilot facility in Nilore, you can see declassified CIA documents of that time, or the Islamic Bomb by Weismann and Krosney published in 1981 that details the New Lab project. The French reprocessing facility was never meant for the bomb program, it would have been under multi-lateral safeguards and was meant for a nuclear power program that could not take off due to sanctions. The New Labs pilot facility was designed for producing PU-239 for the bomb program, outside safeguards.

Pakistan had a reprocessing capability only in 1981 when the New Labs plant was made ready. The 27 KW PARR-2 and 10 MW PARR-1 reactors are only for research and training purposes and these are under full IAEA safeguards.

Pakistan has never diverted any spent fuel from any safeguarded facility. For producing plutonium, PAEC built its own heavy water moderated, natural uranium fuelled, 50 MW reactor at Khushab during the 1980s and 90s. Till such time that this reactor became operational in 1998, Pakistan did not have unsafeguarded spent fuel for reprocessing, even though there was enough spent fuel in KANUPP that was good enough for over 200 bombs. But as a responsible state, Pakistan chose not to break any safeguards.

So while the designs for plutonium warheads were ready years ago, the plutonium itself was only available in large numbers in 1998-2000.

Khushab-1 was a Pakistani designed, and Pakistani built reactor, which was dedicated for plutonium production for the bomb program. It was a great accomplishment on the part of PAEC, which also built a heavy water plant and a tritium facility there, and thereby mastered the complete nuclear fuel cycle.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Pakistan did not have its Tritium production/recovery facility in 1998, PAEC had set it up in 1987. All warheads tested in 1998 were boosted fission devices which used tritium.

There are two type of warheads, one is the gun-type, used in Hiroshima, which was a uranium bomb using about 60 Kg of HEU. The Nagasaki one was an implosion-type warhead that used 6-8 kg of PU-239. No nuclear state abopted the gun-type design after world war 2, simply because a gun-type device is very big in size, it requires much more fissile material, and it cannot be easily delivered. Whereas the implosion design offers the advantage of economy of fissile material and easy deliverability and flexibility in warhead types. All nations that built nuclear weapons have adopted the implosion design.

The gun-type design can only be used to build uranium bombs, and plutonium bombs cannot be built by this method, these require implosion, which is much difficult to build compared to uranium. But, Pakistan did not choose the gun-type design. It went for an implosion method design for both the plutonium and uranium cores as far back as 1973. The only difference in an implosion device is that they can either use plutonium or uranium metal in the core of the device.

The rest is the same package comprising a neutron source, U-238 reflector, high explosive lenses, and krytons as part of the trigger mechanism. However, they may vary in their theortical design in terms of the amount of fissile material needed, since only 2-4 kg of PU-239 is needed compared to 20-25 Kg of HEU for the same weapon. But the problem with uranium bombs is that the critixal mass of uranium is three times that of plutonium, thus making miniaturization of implosion based devices very difficult. Uranium bombs are bulkier in size and cannot be easily made compact because there is a limit after which uranium cannot be compacted.

Pakistan is building two more 50 MW reactors, along side the existing 50 MW Khushab reactor. The pilot reprocessing plant at Nilore in PINSTECH was not linked with the French reprocessing facility. The whole world knows about New Labs pilot facility in Nilore, you can see declassified CIA documents of that time, or the Islamic Bomb by Weismann and Krosney published in 1981 that details the New Lab project. The French reprocessing facility was never meant for the bomb program, it would have been under multi-lateral safeguards and was meant for a nuclear power program that could not take off due to sanctions. The New Labs pilot facility was designed for producing PU-239 for the bomb program, outside safeguards.

Pakistan had a reprocessing capability only in 1981 when the New Labs plant was made ready. The 27 KW PARR-2 and 10 MW PARR-1 reactors are only for research and training purposes and these are under full IAEA safeguards.

Pakistan has never diverted any spent fuel from any safeguarded facility. For producing plutonium, PAEC built its own heavy water moderated, natural uranium fuelled, 50 MW reactor at Khushab during the 1980s and 90s. Till such time that this reactor became operational in 1998, Pakistan did not have unsafeguarded spent fuel for reprocessing, even though there was enough spent fuel in KANUPP that was good enough for over 200 bombs. But as a responsible state, Pakistan chose not to break any safeguards.

So while the designs for plutonium warheads were ready years ago, the plutonium itself was only available in large numbers in 1998-2000.

Khushab-1 was a Pakistani designed, and Pakistani built reactor, which was dedicated for plutonium production for the bomb program. It was a great accomplishment on the part of PAEC, which also built a heavy water plant and a tritium facility there, and thereby mastered the complete nuclear fuel cycle.

Ok i will agree that you say that they are safeguarded but how can you be sure of that Pakistan Didnot transffered any to its Non safeguarded reprocessing facility. IAEA safeguards are so thin that you can easily bypass them.

Secondly donot believe what you listen or read from News books, Islamic bomb etc, their is limit to their sources also. The reactors under construction are far far bigger than 50MW.

My sources are the ones who made Khushab and associated facilities.

Indeepth from the ones who gave Pakistan the Infrustructure it has now.

 

[fatman17]

Why do pakistanis threaten to use them all the time

its in our punjabi culture (bluster)!!!

 

[blain2]

Ejaz,


Look at israel----has maybe 250 plus nukes----but does anyone know about them---yes----but the israelis never threaten about them. They will use them when they need to.

Why do pakistanis threaten to use them all the time---maybe we didnot have the delivery system till very very recently.

If you look back in history, Israel threatened Syria with a nuclear strike if it pushed its offensive during the Yom Kippur war. There is a time and a place to do so. Israelis like Pakistan have used this opportunity when it made sense for them to do so.

Pakistanis have had the delivery system from the get go. It was not a BM based solution, but was available through the PAF. It may not have been the most effective one either, but it was enough as a deterrence.

I have never heard of a Pakistani official casually speaking about using them so I am not sure why you mention that we "use them all the time"?

Unlike Israel (which does not have any nuclear armed neighbors), Pakistan has to fend against India and her vast nuclear capability. So the reactions of Israel and Pakistan would be different. If Israel talked often about their capability like Pakistan, then it makes them look like they are bullies. In Pakistan's case, this capability is sounded off just to remind India.

In the end, what works for Israel does not necessarily suit Pakistan. We maintained silence about our program for as long as it reaped dividends. When the capability went overt then we also adjusted our policy around it.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

What works for israel----!!!!! Two nations, the only two, created for the same reason, facing similiar threat from larger neighbours, same benefactor the U S of A, both were hated by the chritian right wingers americans for a long time---one still is---the other one has learnt the technique.

India already knows what we have---and incidently the way we are portrayed in the world by the indians and their european and american allies---we seem to be the bullies.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Arogant Indian .......

Just make everybody believe you are secular State... No one other than Hindus have most of the rights in India, Muslims are hard pressed and the oppressed just go back dude and check your statistics how many Indians have reached key positions in the administrative services,how many made it to the top in military,what was the statistics of educated muslims who inspite of highly qualified were never given good jobs and even if they got any were oppressed,Secularism was always a word dude to portray before the world.The Minorities were always oppressed how can u explain,1982 Sikh Massacres,Babri aftermaths,the killings and rape of christians in gujarat and MP and Orissa,The Hindu Brahmin lobby in the administrative Selection process will continue this.Got a suggestion for you Get your facts Right.

I recommend, if I may, that you do some studies before you scoff at the ground realities in India.

You may like to read post 48 of:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/history-culture/8551-conversations-muslim-lady-delhi-5.html#post118852

At least in India there is the concept of secularism.

India is fortunate that it is not a theocratic state that has one religion's laws overriding common civil and criminal codes.

One could talk at length about theocratic states and the repression of minorities and of the repression of sects of the same religion, but it will be to no avail. So, it is best left unsaid!

There are the English metaphors that one forgets - doctor heal thyself, and, don't ride the high horse!

India is ridiculous enough to change the Constitution to accommodate a minority religious law that flouts all human values and right of women! It is historical since no nation has changed its law to accommodate such religious sentiments, which is no longer valid in the modern world.

As far as Moslems of India is concerned, any Moslem who has been wise enough to educate himself beyond the realms of a madrassa education, has found his/ her niche!

If the politics of the world requires Israel to threaten then it will,

Only the weak bluster. The strong, acts!!

That is why Israel does not bluster!

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

I recommend, if I may, that you do some studies before you scoff at the ground realities in India.

You may like to read post 48 of:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/history-culture/8551-conversations-muslim-lady-delhi-5.html#post118852

Well see all other posts on that thread and then mention this propaganda here...

At least in India there is the concept of secularism.

India is fortunate that it is not a theocratic state that has one religion's laws overriding common civil and criminal codes.

One could talk at length about theocratic states and the repression of minorities and of the repression of sects of the same religion, but it will be to no avail. So, it is best left unsaid!

There are the English metaphors that one forgets - doctor heal thyself, and, don't ride the high horse!

India is ridiculous enough to change the Constitution to accommodate a minority religious law that flouts all human values and right of women! It is historical since no nation has changed its law to accommodate such religious sentiments, which is no longer valid in the modern world.

As far as Moslems of India is concerned, any Moslem who has been wise enough to educate himself beyond the realms of a madrassa education, has found his/ her niche!

I will say that if you are a Muslim then you are Ignorant to the facts faced by you in India and If you are a Non Muslim, since you not know how to write Muslim correctly, I would say that this is Just a stupid approach by Indians to hide the discrimination in India against all other then Hindus and to some extent with low cast hindus which i agree is now changing. But for other religions, no they have not changed......

Only the weak bluster. The strong, acts!!

That is why Israel does not bluster!

Donot compare Israel which is a meant to keep Muslim countries at bay by US.

Israel without US support is what?.

Nothing.... so here goes your strong

 

[bd_wonder]

no offence but usa is a bloodthirsty mongrel retarded nation of warmongerers and needs to be nuked wiped off the map for betterment of humanity. it's the MOst, i repeat, MOST antiislamic force in teh world today. closest rivals are israel uk and india. and i bleieve ALL 4 of them need to be wiped off the map before muslims can regain their place in this wrold.

i feel pakistan is just PAYING BACK for its mistakes in its early years - that of aligning with usa instead of being nonpartisan. it's just an 'anglo' thing really they've to betray and stab in the back anybody that trusts them - look at iraq or afghanistan both were formerly armed by usa, and now they're getting bombed by it!

i feel we muslims should develop our own selves in educaiton weaponry science tech etc first. and for mean time, keep our options open

so if usa threatens we tiny muslim countries like pk or bd can shift to china or russia. if we threaten this move, then all 'anglos' will be lined up.
in short that's my view. sorry for typos

 

[ejaz007]

Unfortunately I don’t know why but almost all threads come down to India vs Pakistan. This should not happen if all here are educated and professional people. This thread too is going off topic.

Any way I had put forward a question that what would be possible Pakistani counter plan for US attack on its facilities and are Pakistani defenses capable of withstanding such an attack? I have hardly seen any reply to that.

Please concentrate on the topic.

 

[bd_wonder]

frankly i dont like pakistan's chances against a usa attack. usa vs pakistan, one on one, i dont like this fight.
therefore i recommend pakistan keep its options open, draw china and RUSSIA ( a compulsory action) into the fray, threaten to align with them, increase ties with russia etc. forget whatever grievances you MAY have against russia, with increased ties usa wont dare step into russian zone of influence that's close to afghanistan and pakistan.

also increase friendship i.e. more military alliances etc with fellow muslim countries from all around the world.