US links future of joint jet engine development project to manufacture fighter plan

[Ankit Kumar 002]

the options for engine are not too many
F-16 have a lot of customers. it is the largest installed baswaneithf any fighter aircraft



japan, uk, germany, france, south korea, israel could not build advanced weapons & civillian products without technology licenses from american companies



I do not think US will give India advanced engine technology. they may transfer items to help Indians build it on their own. they might transfer several hundred engines to meet the IAF needs for a decade or two

Many buyers of F16? Nah , its either India buying it or its production ceasing. In this sense India has 3 times the option US has ( which in this case wants , at least one of F16 and F18 to survive in production in the coming decade ).

 

[xyxmt]

we wont give you engine tech unless you get the entire plane tech...makes sense

 

[illusion8]

Nothing out of this would materialize in reality because the US intent is to pull India away from Russian lap..! Once that is done the Americans will take a dump and exit.

The news does not make sense...the Americans link jet engine tech with manufacture of fighter which is clearly saying that..we will give you an engine for use in our own fighter only...so its a death kneel for Kaveri already...

And very soon..Indian inventory would be full with American strings attached hardware...which means..India can no longer take an offensive posture...this would be benefit external security of Pakistan...

There. ..now Pakistan has nothing to worry about. You can sleep easy now


@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

I love how it has upped the ante, now the deal has advanced to not just local production but includes transfer of engine tech. Anyone offering to sell will have to match that or do better.

The downside though is that all this is taking waaay too long. I hope it's worth it in the end and we are not left holding a turkey in the end.

 

[wiseone2]

Many buyers of F16? Nah , its either India buying it or its production ceasing. In this sense India has 3 times the option US has ( which in this case wants , at least one of F16 and F18 to survive in production in the coming decade ).

Lockheed made their money. the component suppliers have 4000+ F-16s to sell into. How many can IAF buy ? 300 maximum. It is added incremental money. I do not think IAF will acquire F/A-18

 

[punit]

@PARIKRAMA do F16 has any scope for further improvement? if India buys 150-200 F16 what will be its status twenty year later. can it be turned into a serious 4+++ gen like rafale /euro fighter/Sukhoi etc

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@PARIKRAMA do F16 has any scope for further improvement? if India buys 150-200 F16 what will be its status twenty year later. can it be turned into a serious 4+++ gen like rafale /euro fighter/Sukhoi etc

The upgrade package may get you latest technology but it cannot change the bird to leap frog into the next category above it. An example is

Category 1 - F22, F35, PAKFA, J20, J31
Category 2 - Rafales, EF, Gripen NG, Su35
Category 3 - Su30 flanker family, F18, F16, etc etc

This is an incomplete list but what it tells you is that with various blocks of upgrade the category 3 will like to narrow down the gap between itself and category 2.

In no manner it can out rightly replace Category 2 in terms of actual performance and packaged deal but in terms of cost benefit analysis of using existing fleet and upgrades to maintain a reasonable level of performance upgrades at cheap price is what is being proposed and always used by F16.

F16 Block block 72 today and suppose after 20 years the upgrade package provided in MLU say it raises it to Block 90, inherently it will tech upgrade it and multiply capability. But 20 years from now a new bird of that era will be in a category above it and hence far more superior but will cost differently and will take time for strategies to evolve using such a new bird in our own fleet.

In very short , even with credible upgrades 20 years from now F16 is far below Rafale/EF upgraded birds who will still be below category 1 birds who will also evolve continuously.

Let me tag some others who can give better opinions.

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @gambit @randomradio @zebra7 @Armani @R!CK @GuardianRED @anant_s @Oscar @Manticore @Chinese-Dragon @Deino @others

 

[punit]

The upgrade package may get you latest technology but it cannot change the bird to leap frog into the next category above it. An example is

Category 1 - F22, F35, PAKFA, J20, J31
Category 2 - Rafales, EF, Gripen NG, Su35
Category 3 - Su30 flanker family, F18, F16, etc etc

This is an incomplete list but what it tells you is that with various blocks of upgrade the category 3 will like to narrow down the gap between itself and category 2.

In no manner it can out rightly replace Category 2 in terms of actual performance and packaged deal but in terms of cost benefit analysis of using existing fleet and upgrades to maintain a reasonable level of performance upgrades at cheap price is what is being proposed and always used by F16.

F16 Block block 72 today and suppose after 20 years the upgrade package provided in MLU say it raises it to Block 90, inherently it will tech upgrade it and multiply capability. But 20 years from now a new bird of that era will be in a category above it and hence far more superior but will cost differently and will take time for strategies to evolve using such a new bird in our own fleet.

In very short , even with credible upgrades 20 years from now F16 is far below Rafale/EF upgraded birds who will still be below category 1 birds who will also evolve continuously.

Let me tag some others who can give better opinions.

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @gambit @randomradio @zebra7 @Armani @R!CK @GuardianRED @anant_s @Oscar @Manticore @Chinese-Dragon @Deino @others

thanks!
a few more :
1. Can we club F 22 with remaining 5th Gen. ? time line wise F-35, PAK-FA J-31/20 are two decades younger than f-22 .
2. IMO Gripen NG can not be in the same league as : Rafales, EF or SU-35.
3. how advance is SU-35 than Super Sukhoi-30 MKI?
4. is Rafale/EF better than SU-30 MKI ? if we believe joint exercise reports EF and MKI are almost at par.
5. Where will u put Latest version of F-15.. along with F-16 or one level above.
6. If F-15 can be transformed into F-15 SILENT EAGLE ( which in my opinion is better than EF/rafale) can we do something similar with f-16 ?

Awaiting
your reply !!!

 

[SQ8]

Category 1 - F22, F35, PAKFA, J20, J31
Category 2 - Rafales, EF, Gripen NG, Su35
Category 3 - Su30 flanker family, F18, F16, etc etc
@Oscar

The F-16 airframe is at its limit with the block-60 (the Block 70 is just the Block-61 configuration without the UAE controlled components). After all, a light aircraft that evolved into a medium weight aircraft is already stretching its legs. The issue has less to do with if the F-16 would be useful to India and more to do with India deciding on a proper Air Staff procurement policy that is based on realistic threat assessment, logistics planning and incorporating local industry development rather than current policy; one that I will continue to maintain is more along the lines of a greedy upstart trying to get everything rather than one thoughtfully planning out the next thirty years.

 

[punit]

The F-16 airframe is at its limit with the block-60 (the Block 70 is just the Block-61 configuration without the UAE controlled components). After all, a light aircraft that evolved into a medium weight aircraft is already stretching its legs. The issue has less to do with if the F-16 would be useful to India and more to do with India deciding on a proper Air Staff procurement policy that is based on realistic threat assessment, logistics planning and incorporating local industry development rather than current policy; one that I will continue to maintain is more along the lines of a greedy upstart trying to get everything rather than one thoughtfully planning out the next thirty years.

sir.. can india go Japanese way and modify/enlarge the structure of F-16 as well as more powerful engine.

 

[GuardianRED]

The upgrade package may get you latest technology but it cannot change the bird to leap frog into the next category above it. An example is

Category 1 - F22, F35, PAKFA, J20, J31
Category 2 - Rafales, EF, Gripen NG, Su35
Category 3 - Su30 flanker family, F18, F16, etc etc

This is an incomplete list but what it tells you is that with various blocks of upgrade the category 3 will like to narrow down the gap between itself and category 2.

In no manner it can out rightly replace Category 2 in terms of actual performance and packaged deal but in terms of cost benefit analysis of using existing fleet and upgrades to maintain a reasonable level of performance upgrades at cheap price is what is being proposed and always used by F16.

F16 Block block 72 today and suppose after 20 years the upgrade package provided in MLU say it raises it to Block 90, inherently it will tech upgrade it and multiply capability. But 20 years from now a new bird of that era will be in a category above it and hence far more superior but will cost differently and will take time for strategies to evolve using such a new bird in our own fleet.

In very short , even with credible upgrades 20 years from now F16 is far below Rafale/EF upgraded birds who will still be below category 1 birds who will also evolve continuously.

Let me tag some others who can give better opinions.

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @gambit @randomradio @zebra7 @Armani @R!CK @GuardianRED @anant_s @Oscar @Manticore @Chinese-Dragon @Deino @others

First We need to understand - What role will the F-16 play? yes we have and read all the articles on its capabilities along with its new add- on features BUT the question remains - What role will it play?

Now in the IAF , even though all the aircraft is Multi-role. Each frame is still built for a specific role

1) Su- 30 Air dominance
2) MiG 29 - CAP Air/Sea
3) Mirage 2000 - CAP Nuclear delivery Jammer
3) Rafale - Interdection Strike SEAD/DEAD
3) Jaguar Strike Air/Sea
4) LCA - CAP Interception

So where does the F-16 fit?

The amount of articles and reports is kind of a joke and wish there was Officially a statement to stop all this. Honestly, all this is trying to derail the existing negotiation, by influencing external players BUT not sure this will work ever since the GOI cancelled the Tender and took the FMS route!

 

[punit]

First We need to understand - What role will the F-16 play? yes we have and read all the articles on its capabilities along with its new add- on features BUT the question remains - What role will it play?

Now in the IAF , even though all the aircraft is Multi-role. Each frame is still built for a specific role

1) Su- 30 Air dominance
2) MiG 29 - CAP Air/Sea
3) Mirage 2000 - CAP Nuclear delivery Jammer
3) Rafale - Interdection Strike SEAD/DEAD
3) Jaguar Strike Air/Sea
4) LCA - CAP Interception

So where does the F-16 fit?

The amount of articles and reports is kind of a joke and wish there was Officially a statement to stop all this. Honestly, all this is trying to derail the existing negotiation, by influencing external players BUT not sure this will work ever since the GOI cancelled the Tender and took the FMS route!

what role F16 plays in USAF?

 

[SQ8]

sir.. can india go Japanese way and modify/enlarge the structure of F-16 as well as more powerful engine.

It could but it is grossly expensive and not feasible. Better platforms exist and moreover, India needs to start going the Chinese way sooner rather than later in creating a local industry. Be it via semi-borrowed designs like the J-10 or Tejas( a project I actually mourn for as an aviation enthusiast) or anything.

The MMRCA was a case of IAF stretching its legs beyond the blanket, but a Gripen NG-IN that has BEL, Tata along with other local industries participating much like Israel does with its jets is the way to go. India has to have ownership beyond just ToT. The LM F-16 deal is essentially LM trying to dump its outgoing design on India to try and keep making profits on it.

Still, the IAF first needs to get its bearings right on exactly what it needs and not what it just wants to buy just for the heck of it. As such, all of India's threat needs can be met by 4 core platforms at the max for the next 30 years and that will also give greater incentives for ToT and industry partnership.

The Japanese model is not bad. They build the F-2 ground up, but using a mix of licensed and local components.
Yet this is better done for something like the Gripen or a India Specific Mig-35 derivative.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

thanks!
a few more :
1. Can we club F 22 with remaining 5th Gen. ? time line wise F-35, PAK-FA J-31/20 are two decades younger than f-22 .
2. IMO Gripen NG can not be in the same league as : Rafales, EF or SU-35.
3. how advance is SU-35 than Super Sukhoi-30 MKI?
4. is Rafale/EF better than SU-30 MKI ? if we believe joint exercise reports EF and MKI are almost at par.
5. Where will u put Latest version of F-15.. along with F-16 or one level above.
6. If F-15 can be transformed into F-15 SILENT EAGLE ( which in my opinion is better than EF/rafale) can we do something similar with f-16 ?

Awaiting
your reply !!!

Point 1
Timeline wise -Technology evolution always continues so a plane developed 10-15 years back versus a plane being developed today will have changes in terms of using more matured and newer generation tech unheard and unused before.
Capability wise - PAKFA, J20 and J31 are still without their proper 5th gen engine package so it actually pushes them just a small bit below F22/F35. We still dont know their true capability so i dont think we can judge if this gap is significant or insignificant.

Point 2: Gripen NG is a program which should see good tech evolution over time. Around 2022+ timeframe once it achieves FOC and also its tech part matures you will realise its a nice capable bird and one of the most advanced single engine jet in that timeline with all other competitors a notch surely below it. Unfortunately the EF upgrade package or Rafale F3R2 will also see them evolve further in order to maintain some capability gap in terms of operational efficiency and the choice of twin engines over single engine.

Point 3: If the upgrade package contains 5th gen PAKFA tech flowing then the capability gap of Su35 and Super Su30 MKI will be either marginal or negative (implying a superior Super Su30MKI) but realistically a small marginal gap in favour of Su35 should exist as MKI will need a lot more than cosmetic and avionics package change to cover that distance. IF there is no PAKFA tech than Super Su30 MKI should cross more than 50-66% path difference which exist between itself and Su35 as of today with this upgrade.
Look leaving my patriotism apart i have said it. The present Su35 capability will also get upgraded as well so the capability gap should maintain a reasonable level of difference. Enough that a small fleet of Su35 cannot take out IAF Super MKI fleet but bring in close to say 50-60% numbers of Su35 fleet with proper training and strategy, we should see some serious trouble and may turn out to be in losing side.

Point 4
Very hard to say. Capability, strategy, Training all go hand in hand.
If i go by what i have as classified dox, then yes Rafale is a notch above atm and its deep upgrades as F3R2 is still a notch above super upgrade as per a internal IAF assessment as on April-May 2016. Sadly i cant share it here. What it talked about is pure capability terms. The line added further is that IAF has continuously done training exercises with Western advance fighters and everytime such a exercise has happened the strategy and mission planning has used newer tactics to provide advantageous position to our fighter pilots and increase the rate of mission success.
So its a bit clear in terms of what they feel and how they are evolving.

Point 5
SIlent eagle is the midway capability addition and as i said it goes in between two categories. The entire package is a a small differential above Super Su30 MKI upgrade due to Conformal Weapons Bay (CWB) angle for which MKI airframe will require deep upgrades. But in terms of pure performance and optimised overall package there wont be too much to call any difference.

Point 6
SE is not better than Rafale and EF. In contemporary worlds SE today is presented to offer a good packaged deal against the likes of Rafale and EF who have their own evolutionary programs and will going forward become even more capable especially with new technologies which are part of their upgrade packages.
An example is the continuous target of moving Rafale RCS from present LO range to VLO range. There are far different etch upgrades coming in EF as well.
Using the RCS reduction and a CWB for F16 again will provide an interim solution. You can get capability enhancement but you cannot outrightly replace more capable birds. You use such tactics to take benefit of a large existing fleet of your birds or to share their existing infrastructure or to prolong them in world market for reasonable mission capabilities and continuous fund their upgrade programs.

Every technology gets dated over time. If they have sales, they can afford to fund new R&D to keep them relevant. Thats the bottomline.

 

[GuardianRED]

what role F16 plays in USAF?

Unlike India , The USAF have 5 Type frames (ALL Locally made) with numerous (MANY) Variants! i.e F-15 F-16 , F-22 and A-10s with future F-35
F-16 is primary CAP with strike ability (depends on the situation intercept) BUT u need to understand that the F-16 is been with the USAF since 1976 and have already development technics/ planning around the capabilities of the aircraft!

 

[tore]

The US has linked the future of a joint jet engine development project to a proposal to manufacture American combat aircraft under the Make in India initiative, with Pentagon formally putting all options on the table, including sharing of high-end weapons, radar and power plant technology, during Defence MinisterManohar Parrikar’s recent visit.

Sources told ET that India will now be able to formally evaluate two proposals from US companies Boeing (F/A 18 Super Hornet) and Lockheed Martin (F16 Super Viper) to make jets in India with Pentagon giving a written assurance for transfer of technology.

A renewed push for the jet aircraft project came during the Parrikar visit, with an assurance that high-end jet engine technology that India seeks for its future combat aircraft programmes is also on the table.

In fact, officials told ET that US Secretary for Defence Ashton Carter may be visiting India as early as December to take the process forward. Sources who took part in the discussions said that while in April, when the two US companies had first offered the two jets for a Make in India plan, there was reluctance in Washington on how much technology could be shared.

However recent initiatives, including India’s entry into the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) and the signing of a military logistics support agreement, have changed things on the ground.

It is learnt that the offer from Boeing, which makes the F/A 18, is for the setting up of a new worldclass production facility in India that would cater to the production of futuristic combat aircraft. Lockheed Martin proposes to shift its F 16 fighter line from Texas to India as the sole production facility in the world.

As reported first by ET, in April rivals Boeing and Lockheed Martin jointly met top defence ministry officials in New Delhi offering to locally manufacture the fighter jets.

The offer came after Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar publicly stated that the ministry is interested in setting up production lines for ‘one or two’ fighters at the earliest, beyond the Rafale fighter jet deal with France.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...facture-fighter-plan/articleshow/54039799.cms

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USA not even share its core/sensitive technology with European, i dont understand how USA was willing to share it with indian. Lets wait and see what they share, the terms. Maybe they share as Russian did in FAGFA.

Indians will get alot of technology with this cooperation as it gets from FAGFA, the products it then developed is called indigenous, despite all the R & D is done by others