US F-16's to Pak come with a 'no use against India in future' rider

[deckingraj]

no offence but its their paranoia. with 30+ infentry and armorued divisions deployed along over borders along with forward air bases in war footings India still thinks a country 1/5th of its size with a dozen F16s can cause it an existential threat.

I only hope that their polocy makers grow out of it and start acting like a mature nation. they done well on the economic side I hope they show some improvement in the inter national relations too

You were never an existential threat to us and would never ever be...Having said it may i ask what is your thoughts on this...

China retaliates over US arms sales to Taiwan | World news | guardian.co.uk

Do you think that Taiwan can be of any threat to China??? However they still oppose such deals...May i ask why??? Do you think there leadership is immature??...

Lets not be hypocritical....This is a phenomenon world wide and not just related to India or China...As an adversary you will try your best to ensure your enemy has one less bullet then you....Whatever you are getting will be used to Kill Indians in case of war and if we can we will try to stop it....Same is true for Pakistan....where-ever they can they will try and stop India...However as of now your geo-political influence is not that good....

 

[blain2]

You were never an existential threat to us and would never ever be...Having said it may i ask what is your thoughts on this...

China retaliates over US arms sales to Taiwan | World news | guardian.co.uk

Do you think that Taiwan can be of any threat to China??? However they still oppose such deals...May i ask why??? Do you think there leadership is immature??...

Lets not be hypocritical....This is a phenomenon world wide and not just related to India or China...As an adversary you will try your best to ensure your enemy has one less bullet then you....Whatever you are getting will be used to Kill Indians in case of war and if we can we will try to stop it....Same is true for Pakistan....where-ever they can they will try and stop India...However as of now your geo-political influence is not that good....

Deckinraj,

Apples and oranges..

China considers Taiwan to be an integral part of the mainland. They perceive US equipping Taiwanese very problematic, as your side would if someone started to provide major conventional systems to the Nagas or to the Kashmiris. The Chinese have never agreed to Taiwan's status as an independent, sovereign state. To them, the more hardware that is provided to the Taiwanese, the more emboldened they are to stop the process of reunification (whether it should happen or not is not the gist of my post, I hope you agree).

Compared to that, your side has acknowledged Pakistan as a sovereign state which has all the rights to do what it must to safeguard its security, just the same as your side does against China and Pakistan.

Now I agree that you can try to stop as best as your side can, which is expected, however the principle of it is that when you crib about Pakistani purchases, Americans no longer buy the argument knowing what others are offering your side.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

We are regional Super Power

 

[ambidex]

Not sure why you are so offended? Pakistan has legitimate conventional defence needs. Can you deny this? Any major conventional weapons purchase is being funded by Pakistan and not from US aid. Aside from a limited number of EDA articles, most of the major weapon systems including F-16 blk-52s, JF-17s, Erieyes, ordnance etc. has come from Pakistani money. The same as India will be financing the MMRCA, C-17, C-130, M-777 purchases. So not sure what irks you so much? The problem here is the Indian insecurity and that too a massively misplaced one. While, as per your side, no one should ever say anything to India about where from and what they buy, you have no qualms about complaining when Pakistan does the same. Why the double standards? Do you see us complaining when you acquire US, Israeli or Russian hardware? No we don't. Its your right as a sovereign nation to do so, how we manage our defences, you should leave to us in line with mutual respect for each others sovereignty.

What should stop Pakistan from purchasing F-16s for its needs if the Indians are being allowed to purchase the same with Pakistan in their mind as the primary threat or even if Pakistan is not in their minds (this is a big if)?

In military terms, the lower the conventional capability, the quicker up the rungs you go to nuclear escalation. NATO-Warsaw pact never had conventional parity. The Warsaw pact countries always had more. However the Soviets knew that their conventional superiority was pretty much irrelevant because of the nuclear escalation that would take place if NATO suffered serious set backs conventionally. Pakistan's situation is no different. Its a matter of Pakistan's survival. It would be war-mongering if we threatened India with a nuclear strike as soon as things flared up. This is not the case. Pakistan spends money to maintain sufficient conventional capability to avoid having to ever go down the path of a nuclear escalation. Pakistani nuclear weapons have *NEVER* been readied for use despite the trash that has appeared in the press about the 2002 standoff. Realize that people in Pakistan also want to live and let live. India is not on our minds all of the time, however our security imperatives are as such that we require a certain conventional capability to be maintained. If the US side understands this, its all the better for the region.

You seem to be forgetting the point I made about US allowing Pakistan to acquire enough, but not to the point where we attain full conventional parity with India, at least with US equipment. Secondly, nobody is suggesting here that Pakistan should go the path of attaining parity with India conventionally. Pakistan needs to have a "minimal" credible conventional and nuclear deterrence. The US side realizes this and before your insecurities get the better of you, do realize that this is good for India too.

Blain you are sounding more Insecure here and your gut feeling is out that it hurts when India complains about what ever you procure. Be fair and stay on the topic. Both nations out cry when we both try to get something against each other. As you said we can not stop Pakistan getting what she want, but its worth a try, so lets move on.

I have already mentioned about Pakistan's minimum credible deterrence. Any thing added in PA inventory is a subject to deterrence against (not war fighting) india. Neither you nor me know what is the limit. As far as India's nuclear doctrine is concerned i can assure you that we sufficient deterrence to deter both china and Pakistan. So the question of Indian's insecurity is out.

However we were talking about Pakistani insecurities due to one American isolated policy about F-16. I think you want to say what you want to say and not answering to me. Why on earth Pakistan will lower its nuclear threshold if F-16 will come with strings attached or USA will not accommodate for what you need to enhance you conventional military strength?

I have never debated that you are getting weapons in charity but why USA has no right to make policies the way she want. (Please stick with the topic, you were well withing the topic when made your first point, and now you are running away when entrapped).

Please explain me why (again) USA is responsible for your military parity with India, since you have Ukrainian Tanks, French Jets, Italian SAMs, home grown nukes, french subs, north Korean missiles etc. etc. Try to explain rather using your privileges of bashing Indians.

Regards...

 

[ambidex]

Adding:

The situation of Pakistan is not same as Warsawpact vs NATO or Russia and USA. Pakistan is not ready for nuclear war and nuclear battelfield.

 

[S_O_C_O_M]

Adding:

The situation of Pakistan is not same as Warsawpact vs NATO or Russia and USA. Pakistan is not ready for nuclear war and nuclear battelfield.

Are you sure? Is India ready?

Let there be a nuclear war between Pakistan/India and see if India does not result in a nuclear wasteland. Live in your naive Indian nationalist pride world, but when reality hits......

 

[Patriot]

Yeah Ambidex i guess radioactivity won't work on India.They have some special technology which will swallow our nukes.

MOD EDIT: Offensive line removed.

 

[ambidex]

What r the chances that new and future f16 are bugged? Given current isi-cia public spat! Hey you never know?

Its just a temporary pressure tactic to pursue Pakistan on WOT and pleasing India at the same time for sake of US strategic interests.

Pakistani policy maker have reached to an age of maturity where they can turn US hostility to their favour. However India and Pakistan can enjoy this temporary Immunity against each other till the time WOT is on and US is present in this region.

After WOT the situation will be back to square one again for both India and Pakistan to level there scores if China will stay out of the theater. Otherwise India will open its doors for USA to deter China and Pakistan will again find its self in difficulty for whom to side with.

 

[ambidex]

Are you sure? Is India ready?

Let there be a nuclear war between Pakistan/India and see if India does not result in a nuclear wasteland. Live in your naive Indian nationalist pride world, but when reality hits......

You are not reading my previous post both India and Pakistan are not ready for nuclear war actually both dont know how to.

 

[ambidex]

Yeah Ambidex i guess radioactivity won't work on India.They have some special technology named kali mata or something along those lines which will swallow our nukes.

Please edit your post.

Self edited..........................

Regards

 

[keralaking]

Deckinraj,

Apples and oranges..

China considers Taiwan to be an integral part of the mainland. They perceive US equipping Taiwanese very problematic, as your side would if someone started to provide major conventional systems to the Nagas or to the Kashmiris. The Chinese have never agreed to Taiwan's status as an independent, sovereign state. To them, the more hardware that is provided to the Taiwanese, the more emboldened they are to stop the process of reunification (whether it should happen or not is not the gist of my post, I hope you agree).

Compared to that, your side has acknowledged Pakistan as a sovereign state which has all the rights to do what it must to safeguard its security, just the same as your side does against China and Pakistan.

Now I agree that you can try to stop as best as your side can, which is expected, however the principle of it is that when you crib about Pakistani purchases, Americans no longer buy the argument knowing what others are offering your side.

Now just because china says taiwan is a part of it does it become one with china it is just like india saying *** is part of India Now problem here both india and pakistan are on an arms race and each will try to stop the other either hook or crook

 

[Luftwaffe]

notorious pussycat.. There's no need for others to explain to you, you come join here act like a wussie - (remember to google) ok?
Top us aid receivers:
No 1 israel (will always be No1 since 2003 aid to israeli has doubled)
No 2 Egypt
No 3 Iraq (received $20 billion dollars on paper for reconstruction- doubts)
No 4 and on South America
No?? Pakistan.
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/31987.pdf
U.S. Foreign Aid Summary
Interestingly the second website as well explain isreal and egypt to be the biggest recipients of us aid.
Need to know more?

 

[Ammyy]

notorious pussycat as i would rightfully call you. There's noo need for others to explain to you, you come join here act like a wussie - (remember to google) ok?
Top us aid receivers:
No 1 israel (will always be No1 since 2003 aid to israeli has doubled)
No 2 Egypt
No 3 Iraq (received $20 billion dollars on paper for reconstruction- doubts)
No 4 and on South America
No?? Pakistan.
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/31987.pdf
U.S. Foreign Aid Summary
Interestingly the second website as well explain isreal and egypt to be the biggest recipients of us aid.
Need to know more?

this name suits you batter

First of all data of 2006 ... very good ...... recently USA increase Pakistani aid many times .... dnt you put any recent source

please put any official source not any personal blog

 

[PlanetWarrior]

notorious pussycat.. There's no need for others to explain to you, you come join here act like a wussie - (remember to google) ok?
Top us aid receivers:
No 1 israel (will always be No1 since 2003 aid to israeli has doubled)
No 2 Egypt
No 3 Iraq (received $20 billion dollars on paper for reconstruction- doubts)
No 4 and on South America
No?? Pakistan.
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/31987.pdf
U.S. Foreign Aid Summary
Interestingly the second website as well explain isreal and egypt to be the biggest recipients of us aid.
Need to know more?

Tch tch . Personal attacks are not welcome on this forum mein heer. You should improve your debating (and research) skills

 

[Luftwaffe]

DRDO...google it..
israeli tops the list in 2010 for getting all aid both economic and Military.
December 21, 2009

US foreign aid to Israel will rise by US$225 million in fiscal year 2010. Israel can spend up to 25% to 30% of the sum for defense purchases

US President Barack Obama signed last week the foreign aid budget law for 2010 which includes the granting of US$2.775 billion in security aid to Israel.

US foreign aid to Israel will rise by US$225 million in fiscal year 2010.

Annual aid to Israel under the MOU is to rise from $2.55 billion in 2009 to a ceiling of $3.1 billion in 2013, and it will remain at that level for the rest of the period.

Like in previous years, Israel can spend up to 25% to 30% of the sum for defense purchases from Israeli manufacturers, and the remainder must be spent for defense purchases in the US.
Egypt will receive $1.3 billion in aid in 2010, and Jordan will receive $540 million.

Another story..
In his recent State of the Union address, President Obama pledged to "go through the budget line by line to eliminate programs that we can't afford and don't work." One week later, he sent his FY2011 budget request to Congress, which included a record-breaking $3 billion in military aid to Israel and approved.

This requested increase in U.S. weapons to Israel -- part of a ten-year $30 billion agreement signed between the two countries in 2007.

Still think Pakistan is getting the most aid?

PlanetWarrior...I do not debate "some" who joins forum merely to flame.
Go see the link my research is to the point and clarifies the rants about who gets more aid instead of accepting don't blindly takes sides without (research as links are enough). You should join etiquette classes and invite your new indian comers.