Updates on F-INSAS program

[Dillinger]

You don't care about what the specialists will get? Not even your precious airborne brigades??!!


I know what you mean bro. The SFs are going to get taken care of nowadays but the story for the infantrymen is different and their basic weapons/equipment needs to be light years ahead of where it is now. Seeing Indian soldiers in 20-effing-13 running around with WW2 era Bran LMGs and 9mm Sten Carbines as well as "tin helmets" is just a distressing sight to day the least.

As we have already established, in country global level products already exist and many have met some of the most stringent standards. So there isn't much left to do with capability generation as such- OFB's QC/QR horror stories remain an issue wrt the primary assault rifle the rest is in good hands if EITHER TATA or MKU get to play the field on their terms wrt production.

The airbornes need more than good rifles. For that again Mahindra/TATA/MKU/Ashok Leyland need to be immediately put to work without any dilly-dallying. Three of these companies have in their own ways developed MRAP segment vehicles- the V-hull design needs to leveraged along with TATA's super-bainite armor or MKU's applique armor solutions to develop L-ATV segment vehicles (6-8 tons, all terrain, MRAP level protection) which are air-transportable and parachute deployed. Otherwise in the absence of organic mechanized elements we will remain short of true airborne capability.

An Oshkosh or AM project model should be adopted where they leveraged Israel's Plasan (of the Plasan sandcat fame) to provide the armor solutions for their chassis which were based on their own MRAP vehicles or TAPVs. Use what you have, allow those who specialize in a certain field to provide their expertise. As it is TATA and the rest will have their hands full coming up with the complicated suspension systems required.

After that, armed with NAG atgms (akin to the Kornet-E) or 20mm RWS these vehicles will provide credible protection and firepower to the airborne troops who will otherwise be travelling light.

Doable? YES!

Will the MOD see the light of reason? NOT VERY PROBABLE!

 

[The_Sidewinder]

@Dillinger and anyone else notice this:



Under the F-INSAS the IA is shopping for new CQB carbines, HMGs,MMGs, LMGs, Sniper rifles and ARs (regulars will get the DRDO MCW, specilost units like the Ghataks, Airborne brigades and RR but NOT SF, will get the foreign AR- fingers crossed the ARX -160) )

Yup, heard of it. At last, steps are taken to overhaul the old LMGs. But our MMG & HMGs also needs to be replaced. Those are as vintage as Ww2 era. Rarely we see those in action. Never in life, i have seen any .50 caliber fitted a top of army vehicle. Also we need to replace our Maruti Jeepsy's with HUMVEE kind of of vehicle.

 

[Abingdonboy]

As we have already established, in country global level products already exist and many have met some of the most stringent standards. So there isn't much left to do with capability generation as such- OFB's QC/QR horror stories remain an issue wrt the primary assault rifle the rest is in good hands if EITHER TATA or MKU get to play the field on their terms wrt production.

The airbornes need more than good rifles. For that again Mahindra/TATA/MKU/Ashok Leyland need to be immediately put to work without any dilly-dallying. Three of these companies have in their own ways developed MRAP segment vehicles- the V-hull design needs to leveraged along with TATA's super-bainite armor or MKU's applique armor solutions to develop L-ATV segment vehicles (6-8 tons, all terrain, MRAP level protection) which are air-transportable and parachute deployed. Otherwise in the absence of organic mechanized elements we will remain short of true airborne capability.

An Oshkosh or AM project model should be adopted where they leveraged Israel's Plasan (of the Plasan sandcat fame) to provide the armor solutions for their chassis which were based on their own MRAP vehicles or TAPVs. Use what you have, allow those who specialize in a certain field to provide their expertise. As it is TATA and the rest will have their hands full coming up with the complicated suspension systems required.

After that, armed with NAG atgms (akin to the Kornet-E) or 20mm RWS these vehicles will provide credible protection and firepower to the airborne troops who will otherwise be travelling light.

Doable? YES!

Will the MOD see the light of reason? NOT VERY PROBABLE!

It's a tall order alright. But you know I think we have reason to be optimistic. The very fact the Indian military is expanding its expeditionary war fighting capability (navy and army) is very welcome and quite a shift away from the traditional defensive nature of the Indian military.


On the industerial side I am actually very optimistic in this from but it will take quite some time to get to where you and I want it to be.

 

[The_Sidewinder]

As we have already established, in country global level products already exist and many have met some of the most stringent standards. So there isn't much left to do with capability generation as such- OFB's QC/QR horror stories remain an issue wrt the primary assault rifle the rest is in good hands if EITHER TATA or MKU get to play the field on their terms wrt production.

The airbornes need more than good rifles. For that again Mahindra/TATA/MKU/Ashok Leyland need to be immediately put to work without any dilly-dallying. Three of these companies have in their own ways developed MRAP segment vehicles- the V-hull design needs to leveraged along with TATA's super-bainite armor or MKU's applique armor solutions to develop L-ATV segment vehicles (6-8 tons, all terrain, MRAP level protection) which are air-transportable and parachute deployed. Otherwise in the absence of organic mechanized elements we will remain short of true airborne capability.

An Oshkosh or AM project model should be adopted where they leveraged Israel's Plasan (of the Plasan sandcat fame) to provide the armor solutions for their chassis which were based on their own MRAP vehicles or TAPVs. Use what you have, allow those who specialize in a certain field to provide their expertise. As it is TATA and the rest will have their hands full coming up with the complicated suspension systems required.

After that, armed with NAG atgms (akin to the Kornet-E) or 20mm RWS these vehicles will provide credible protection and firepower to the airborne troops who will otherwise be travelling light.

Doable? YES!

Will the MOD see the light of reason? NOT VERY PROBABLE!

I totally agree with you mate. Its possible to overhaul our entire defence sector via free entry to local private sector. Govt, officials, army top brass only haulting this to keep free flowing kickbegs of foreign vendors.

 

[Dillinger]

It's a tall order alright. But you know I think we have reason to be optimistic. The very fact the Indian military is expanding its expeditionary war fighting capability (navy and army) is very welcome and quite a shift away from the traditional defensive nature of the Indian military.


On the industerial side I am actually very optimistic in this from but it will take quite some time to get to where you and I want it to be.

Well its not particularly complicated if we let TATA and Mahindra find their depth for themselves, if we have a company that provides armoring solutions for the British Army and builds MRAPs, another which has armored German navy corvettes and frigates- and also helos (weight my man weight- armoring helos required conforming to severe weight limits which is also required for the L-ATV) and then two more companies which have made their own forays into armored vehicles- its not too difficult. Question is, do we have the will and the foresight? IF not then nothing really matters does it?

IF the Europeans are happily employing our own companies then why not us?

I totally agree with you mate. Its possible to overhaul our entire defence sector via free entry to local private sector. Govt, officials, army top brass only haulting this to keep free flowing kickbegs of foreign vendors.

The top army brass doesn't block anything, that is not to say that some of the officers and uniforms might not be shady (but let us be careful with labeling people). The problem lies elsewhere- solutions exist- there was a rather large post I'd written up on it. Will have to do so again.

Certain things can be turned around- miracles don't exist but good work can be done most easily.

 

[The_Sidewinder]

@Abingdonboy
plus the export potential. Breakthrough on private sector defence production will certainly enable India to get a chunk of exports thus creating employment at a huge scale and also boosting our economy.
@Dillinger
well if there are problems, so there are solutions. Key is to slaught it out, finding it, and having guts to implement the solutions.
We can't just ignore army top brasses hand in corruption. Although I am not trying to say that Armies corrupt but there is no denial that theres a section of it, which loves those kickbegs.

 

[Dillinger]

@Abingdonboy
plus the export potential. Breakthrough on private sector defence production will certainly enable India to get a chunk of exports thus creating employment at a huge scale and also boosting our economy.
@Dillinger
well if there are problems, so there are solutions. Key is to slaught it out, finding it, and having guts to implement the solutions.
We can't just ignore army top brasses hand in corruption. Although I am not trying to say that Armies corrupt but there is no denial that theres a section of it, which loves those kickbegs.

See at the end of the day the Uniforms are very much in tune with the jawaans, as I said there are some shady characters. BUT they do not decide jack **** in fact they will ALWAYS defer to the DAC no matter what their views are. It is our managerial deficiencies, bad structuring from the MOD downwards, foolish tender policies that cause the problem.

 

[The_Sidewinder]

See at the end of the day the Uniforms are very much in tune with the jawaans, as I said there are some shady characters. BUT they do not decide jack **** in fact they will ALWAYS defer to the DAC no matter what their views are. It is our managerial deficiencies, bad structuring from the MOD downwards, foolish tender policies that cause the problem.

Ya mate, may be entire MOD hiercharchy should be educated with mgnt education.
In the end, they have to realise the soldiers are also human beings. Their lifes got value god damn it. Each one of their lifes got value, they also has a family. Safely of the soldiers should be the top priority to them. Each soldiers count, in the end, men behind the machine who wons a war.
On topic, do you have any updates on India Army's basic patrolling vehicle, Maruti Jeepsy's replacement. M dying to get any news about it.

 

[Lostsoldier]

So does every rifle... these days INSAS is not the same rifle we had in late 90s



Look at other rifles available see table below.....this is a rifle is not that long it can be 750 mm with folding butt.
Also note that people select different weapon for different theater, carbines are made for close combats. That what people uses



Thats wrong perception. If AK 47 with 7.67mm round and 700+m/s muzzle velocity the INSAS with 5.56mm with 900+ m/s muzzle velocity is very deadly. One shot in right place at 300+ mtr is a sure kill.

but the point is do we get shot in right place in war?

 

[Lostsoldier]

YESSSSSSSSSSSS

sardar emotions be beh gaya tha...............ab sab theek hai



bhai main aiveen hi tata ke liye gurudwara ja raha tha(mannat mangne)

mku is indian but i heard it has foreign roots to tech. it has nt damn sure

 

[Dillinger]

mku is indian but i heard it has foreign roots to tech. it has nt damn sure

Yaara you guys need to start doing your homework. The R&D unit of the company is in Kanpur itself with another one in Sittensen. The only thing MKU leverages from outside is certifications and validations, which are far more stringent and ergo once certified their products have a huge advantage over domestic products here which may not have gone through the same rigorous certification process.

They have two JVs, one for aircraft cabling and another for NVD image intensifiers- that sums up what they're up to.

 

[The_Sidewinder]

Yaara you guys need to start doing your homework. The R&D unit of the company is in Kanpur itself with another one in Sittensen. The only thing MKU leverages from outside is certifications and validations, which are far more stringent and ergo once certified their products have a huge advantage over domestic products here which may not have gone through the same rigorous certification process.

They have two JVs, one for aircraft cabling and another for NVD image intensifiers- that sums up what they're up to.

%-)
more certification means more reliability (INDIAN THEORY). Hope it helps them to capture domestic market. I hope Govt will alow them to participate more in domestic ventures in upcoming years to come.
" Sooner the Better"

 

[Dillinger]

%-)
more certification means more reliability (INDIAN THEORY). Hope it helps them to capture domestic market. I hope Govt will alow them to participate more in domestic ventures in upcoming years to come.
" Sooner the Better"

A certification from NIJ most definitely means that it is VERY reliable- similarly if the MOD had some foresight they would have gotten a FAA certification for the Dhruv - one would have seen foreign sales prospects jump through the roof given that there isn't any other helo in the world which weighs half as much as a Blackhawk and can still carry as many number of troops with their loadout.

Someday someone will come along with more sense than bluster and some foresight.

For all those who want to know where the tech comes from:-

a little sampler-

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US20100043112.pdf

"Do your homework"- well this is what it means to do your homework. There is enough technology right here for a lot of projects, the question is are we as a nation ready to leverage what we have?

 

[Dillinger]

@he-man

The second system belongs to MKU- cannot get you high def pics but here are the components-

Helmet, helmet ACH ARC kit for mounting optronics, attachment akin to a VAS shroud for flip-on/flip-off NVG attachment:-

BPJ- (far too many details to list- mainly- Molle web gear, quick release system, and trust me its extremely light- have handled one personally):-

Rifle mounted/ IR enabled sight with transmit to eye-optics gear:-

Aur kuch? There are a whole host of NVD monocular, binocular and RAS options. Even a tactical soldier carried and deployed surveillance UAV.

Closer look at the system- still no high res pic though:-

@Abingdonboy A better look at the MKU F-INSAS offerings.
@Armstrong I is going to wear all of this and hunt your BIG lard a$$.
OR I'll hunt @BDforever at the border.

@Hyperion

Me desi lungi hunting loadout? No go-bag though.

You kit up too- lets hunt.

 

[Dillinger]

The second system belongs to MKU- cannot get you high def pics but here are the components-

Helmet, helmet ACH ARC kit for mounting optronics, attachment akin to a VAS shroud for flip-on/flip-off NVG attachment:-

BPJ- (far too many details to list- mainly- Molle web gear, quick release system, and trust me its extremely light- have handled one personally):-

Rifle mounted/ IR enabled sight with transmit to eye-optics gear:-

Aur kuch? There are a whole host of NVD monocular, binocular and RAS options. Even a tactical soldier carried and deployed surveillance UAV.

Closer look at the system- still no high res pic though:-

A previous kit-up provided by MKU - (same BPJ, but a slightly older version)

@COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

Since you mentioned F-INSAS, something I'd put up for the kids. Page-4 has the TATA offerings.