Ukraine has failed to meet Royal Thai's T-84 deal, what about the deal with Pakistan?

[cabatli_53]

You must accept the reality of Turkish over exaggerate of their military technology. Turkey R&D is still way below China and many western countries. How good can they produced? They good at misleading you only. Fancy you believe Turkish hip.

-Turkey's installations are protected under NATO's secrecy policies
-Turkish projects' documentations are all convenient to NATO standards
-Turkish software and electronic institutes are ranked in accordance with CMMI level quality standarts and Turkey have rare institutes which have 5 star maturity level installations in NATO.
-Certification phases are seriously difficult and approx takes 1 years for an average product.
-To be a part of Turkey's projects, The institutes are being inspected and certified in accordance with NATO's quality standards for R&D and production bends.
-Almost all Turkish institutes revealing Turkish products are also working as a part of international products such as F-35, A400M, AW139 and producing critical parts for F-22, GE motors, PAC-3, Rapier, HAWK, ESSM, IDEAS, Stinger missiles and many others.
-Turkish institutes are working for a difficult costumer like Turkish Army inspecting almost all quality aspects of final product from design to the end. It is the reason the requirements are sometimes being changed during design phase which causes to extend the time frame of programs and Qualification trials are also difficult for Turkish products.

- Turkish institutes have matured with collaborating big military gear producers to produce their state of art strategic products/critical components step by step under some off-set requirements. Later, When industry matured enough, The big scale own programs are started to be revealed slowly but steadily. When It is needed, Industry agrees to receive know-how transfer like all other developing states do instead of trying to copy other's designs in third class production lines thanks to trial and error principles without considering any international maturity level prospect and inspections.

Now I will give an example to make you think about self confidence of our industry to our own quality standards: A country like Turkey has courage enough to cancel Chinese Long Altitude SAM missile program to develop own equivalent with promising to develop better one, While A country like China prefers outsourcing such a requirement for Russian S400. That's what We name as our ambitious and self confidence to our own technological infrastructure and quality requirements.

How good Turkey can produce ? I think The Answer is simple from our own perspective: Better than many Chinese equivalent which is being offered to costumers.


How good Turkey produce? Yep We can produce good enough to be a part of USA F-35 program for not only industrial production partner worth around 9 billion $ for 100 fighter but also a main cruise missile supplier for all F-35 users and other international costumers which is planing to buy JSF.

They good at misleading you only.

We are good at being proud of our own flag/soldiers/independence along with ambitious of our promising engineering efforts and quality standards making some Chinese citizen falling into difficulties When It is mentioned a fair competition between us to secure a likely deals to get the winner at international tenders. It is the reason you open your biased mouths based on purely imaginations to tell How Turks are misleading the public about the quality of their products, Although You don't have any idea about your talking because, Noone can tell me the logic of Why a Chinese guy who don't have any idea about Turkey's ongoing abilities/infrastructure, suddenly come up to Turkey related subjects to throw mud about them. If they are really bad as you said, It is no need to worry about.

 

[krash]

-Turkey's installations are protected under NATO's secrecy policies
-Turkish projects' documentations are all convenient to NATO standards
-Turkish software and electronic institutes are ranked in accordance with CMMI level quality standarts and Turkey have rare institutes which have 5 star maturity level installations in NATO.
-Certification phases are seriously difficult and approx takes 1 years for an average product.
-To be a part of Turkey's projects, The institutes are being inspected and certified in accordance with NATO's quality standards for R&D and production bends.
-Almost all Turkish institutes revealing Turkish products are also working as a part of international products such as F-35, A400M, AW139 and producing critical parts for F-22, GE motors, PAC-3, Rapier, HAWK, ESSM, IDEAS, Stinger missiles and many others.
-Turkish institutes are working for a difficult costumer like Turkish Army inspecting almost all quality aspects of final product from design to the end. It is the reason the requirements are sometimes being changed during design phase which causes to extend the time frame of programs and Qualification trials are also difficult for Turkish products.

- Turkish institutes have matured with collaborating big military gear producers to produce their state of art strategic products/critical components step by step under some off-set requirements. Later, When industry matured enough, The big scale own programs are started to be revealed slowly but steadily. When It is needed, Industry agrees to receive know-how transfer like all other developing states do instead of trying to copy other's designs in third class production lines thanks to trial and error principles without considering any international maturity level prospect and inspections.

Now I will give an example to make you think about self confidence of our industry to our own quality standards: A country like Turkey has courage enough to cancel Chinese Long Altitude SAM missile program to develop own equivalent with promising to develop better one, While A country like China prefers outsourcing such a requirement for Russian S400. That's what We name as our ambitious and self confidence to our own technological infrastructure and quality requirements.

How good Turkey can produce ? I think The Answer is simple from our own perspective: Better than many Chinese equivalent which is being offered to costumers.


How good Turkey produce? Yep We can produce good enough to be a part of USA F-35 program for not only industrial production partner worth around 9 billion $ for 100 fighter but also a main cruise missile supplier for all F-35 users and other international costumers which is planing to buy JSF.

We are good at being proud of our own flag/soldiers/independence along with ambitious of our promising engineering efforts and quality standards making some Chinese citizen falling into difficulties When It is mentioned a fair competition between us to secure a likely deals to get the winner at international tenders. It is the reason you open your biased mouths based on purely imaginations to tell How Turks are misleading the public about the quality of their products, Although You don't have any idea about your talking because, Noone can tell me the logic of Why a Chinese guy who don't have any idea about Turkey's ongoing abilities/infrastructure, suddenly come up to Turkey related subjects to throw mud about them. If they are really bad as you said, It is no need to worry about.

Dude, you are arguing with a man who said that countries will buy the L-15 over the JF-17 and that the dozens of J-10b/c that China has produced and fitted with the AL-31s will just sit there until a Chinese engine becomes available and replaces them. Don't waste you're energy.

 

[Beast]

Dude, you are arguing with a man who said that countries will buy the L-15 over the JF-17 and that the dozens of J-10b/c that China has produced and fitted with the AL-31s will just sit there until a Chinese engine becomes available and replaces them. Don't waste you're energy.

You clearly know nothing about the progress of Chinese military, I even seen Pakistanis fanboy claiming JF-17 is superior to Chinese J-10. Many pakistanis with zero knowledge of Chinese military keep insisting Chinese miilitary is inferior compare to even US/Turkish military product despite Pakistan has many times suffer embargo by western and is many times bail out by Chinese with supply of AWACS, attack gunship and support design of JF-17 and Al Khalid MBT.

Even wonder why JF-17 twin seater has long being delay despite the actual practical use of having a twin seat fighter/trainer?

As for J-10B, there are no comfirmed news of J-10B ever enter service or even participate in any of PLAAF exercise or mock attack. Please feel free to inform me if you can provide concrete evidence of J-10B enter service.

J-10B is indeed waiting for our own domestic produced 140KN Taihang engine. We are not like Turkey need foreign engine for tanks, helo and aircraft. Even its clone, we have 100% capabilities to manufacture everything unlike turkey so called joint venture which core parts still need to be imported from USA under joint manufacture. American are no idiots to transfer 100% know how to another countries just becos you have some money. There is something which money cant buy and is obtain only thru billions of investment in nurturing your own scientist, institution, metallurgy and infrastruture. China as a superpower has did it and I doubt turkey a small country has the money or talent to accomplish that.

-Turkey's installations are protected under NATO's secrecy policies
-Turkish projects' documentations are all convenient to NATO standards
-Turkish software and electronic institutes are ranked in accordance with CMMI level quality standarts and Turkey have rare institutes which have 5 star maturity level installations in NATO.
-Certification phases are seriously difficult and approx takes 1 years for an average product.
-To be a part of Turkey's projects, The institutes are being inspected and certified in accordance with NATO's quality standards for R&D and production bends.
-Almost all Turkish institutes revealing Turkish products are also working as a part of international products such as F-35, A400M, AW139 and producing critical parts for F-22, GE motors, PAC-3, Rapier, HAWK, ESSM, IDEAS, Stinger missiles and many others.
-Turkish institutes are working for a difficult costumer like Turkish Army inspecting almost all quality aspects of final product from design to the end. It is the reason the requirements are sometimes being changed during design phase which causes to extend the time frame of programs and Qualification trials are also difficult for Turkish products.

- Turkish institutes have matured with collaborating big military gear producers to produce their state of art strategic products/critical components step by step under some off-set requirements. Later, When industry matured enough, The big scale own programs are started to be revealed slowly but steadily. When It is needed, Industry agrees to receive know-how transfer like all other developing states do instead of trying to copy other's designs in third class production lines thanks to trial and error principles without considering any international maturity level prospect and inspections.

Now I will give an example to make you think about self confidence of our industry to our own quality standards: A country like Turkey has courage enough to cancel Chinese Long Altitude SAM missile program to develop own equivalent with promising to develop better one, While A country like China prefers outsourcing such a requirement for Russian S400. That's what We name as our ambitious and self confidence to our own technological infrastructure and quality requirements.

How good Turkey can produce ? I think The Answer is simple from our own perspective: Better than many Chinese equivalent which is being offered to costumers.


How good Turkey produce? Yep We can produce good enough to be a part of USA F-35 program for not only industrial production partner worth around 9 billion $ for 100 fighter but also a main cruise missile supplier for all F-35 users and other international costumers which is planing to buy JSF.

We are good at being proud of our own flag/soldiers/independence along with ambitious of our promising engineering efforts and quality standards making some Chinese citizen falling into difficulties When It is mentioned a fair competition between us to secure a likely deals to get the winner at international tenders. It is the reason you open your biased mouths based on purely imaginations to tell How Turks are misleading the public about the quality of their products, Although You don't have any idea about your talking because, Noone can tell me the logic of Why a Chinese guy who don't have any idea about Turkey's ongoing abilities/infrastructure, suddenly come up to Turkey related subjects to throw mud about them. If they are really bad as you said, It is no need to worry about.

Most of the Turkish military project can only materialise with assist of US or Europe assist. There is nothing much to be proud of. In times of crisis, Turkey can find itself in trouble or under the control of West.

By showing a simple JADM, just show how limited Turkish military is in terms of 100% indigenous.

We make a more complex 100% made in China product like 7000tons destroyer without any other imported or license parts. From the AESA radar to main gun and universal launcher missile.

 

[SQ8]

How good Turkey can produce ? I think The Answer is simple from our own perspective: Better than many Chinese equivalent which is being offered to costumers..

The gauge of Turkish quality can be measured by procurement in Pakistan. US equipment is accepted without any testing because of reputation both in terms of technical performance and strict QC. Turkish equipment is only measured once in tests against US equipment and usually performs very well in many cases.

Try selling any Chinese equipment to the Pakistan military and even any civil applications and you will go through a hell of testing, quality checks , assurances and certificates before it is even accepted for a BID!

 

[Dazzler]

You clearly know nothing about the progress of Chinese military, I even seen Pakistanis fanboy claiming JF-17 is superior to Chinese J-10. Many pakistanis with zero knowledge of Chinese military keep insisting Chinese miilitary is inferior compare to even US/Turkish military product despite Pakistan has many times suffer embargo by western and is many times bail out by Chinese with supply of AWACS, attack gunship and support design of JF-17 and Al Khalid MBT.

Even wonder why JF-17 twin seater has long being delay despite the actual practical use of having a twin seat fighter/trainer?

As for J-10B, there are no comfirmed news of J-10B ever enter service or even participate in any of PLAAF exercise or mock attack. Please feel free to inform me if you can provide concrete evidence of J-10B enter service.

J-10B is indeed waiting for our own domestic produced 140KN Taihang engine. We are not like Turkey need foreign engine for tanks, helo and aircraft. Even its clone, we have 100% capabilities to manufacture everything unlike turkey so called joint venture which core parts still need to be imported from USA under joint manufacture. American are no idiots to transfer 100% know how to another countries just becos you have some money. There is something which money cant buy and is obtain only thru billions of investment in nurturing your own scientist, institution, metallurgy and infrastruture. China as a superpower has did it and I doubt turkey a small country has the money or talent to accomplish that.

View attachment 289439



Most of the Turkish military project can only materialise with assist of US or Europe assist. There is nothing much to be proud of. In times of crisis, Turkey can find itself in trouble or under the control of West.

By showing a simple JADM, just show how limited Turkish military is in terms of 100% indigenous.

We make a more complex 100% made in China product like 7000tons destroyer without any other imported or license parts. From the AESA radar to main gun and universal launcher missile.

View attachment 289440

i admire your patriotism but not all is well with Chinese weapon systems to this day. China still lags in many areas despite its huge investments in R&D and economy. i am not belittling it in anyway, rather they have some catching up to do with the west. Yes we buy from china because most of your weapon systems and radars have passed through our QC process but NOT without suggested improvements. Your posts suggests everything is just fine with modern chinese systems but i being a witness to some, can tell you they are not.

The current VT-4 debacle and some of your ground surveillance radars will second my opinion.

 

[Beast]

i admire your patriotism but not all is well with Chinese weapon systems to this day. China still lags in many areas despite its huge investments in R&D and economy. i am not belittling it in anyway, rather they have some catching up to do with the west. Yes we buy from china because most of your weapon systems and radars have passed through our QC process but NOT without suggested improvements. Your posts suggests everything is just fine with modern chinese systems but i being a witness to some, can tell you they are not.

The current VT-4 debacle and some of your ground surveillance radars will second my opinion.

You clearly has to consider what you have seen is not the best we have. The best will reserve for ourselves. Are you saying PAF is able to get their hands on J-20? Plus you have to consider Pakistan limited financial resources. You have that only amount of money and you want to get a Ferrari? I hope you can keep personal comment to yourself, be realistic of Pakistan situtation and not misled the others.

What China made is the best value for customer unless you have tons of cash. China always try to cater to what the best the customers can offer.

 

[Dazzler]

You clearly has to consider what you have seen is not the best we have. The best will reserve for ourselves. Are you saying PAF is able to get their hands on J-20? Plus you have to consider Pakistan limited financial resources. You have that only amount of money and you want to get a Ferrari? I hope you can keep personal comment to yourself, be realistic of Pakistan situtation and not misled the others.

What China made is the best value for customer unless you have tons of cash. China always try to cater to what the best the customers can offer.

are you suggesting that Norinco could only churn out a faulty VT-4 from that money?? Are you also suggesting that the three Z-10s sent to us are also faulty or lack in some areas?
you dont know how things go between the two countries mate, stop throwing empty words while you can.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

Decision will be made after trial of Type 99 and Atlay Tanks. Lets see what has closest match with our requirements.
I hope it will be soon decided what to opt.

 

[Beast]

are you suggesting that Norinco could only churn out a faulty VT-4 from that money?? Are you also suggesting that the three Z-10s sent to us are also faulty or lack in some areas?
you dont know how things go between the two countries mate, stop throwing empty words while you can.

I think you are the one spreading lies or based on rumour. There are so far, no concrete official news about VT-4 bidding being unsuccessful yet and is all based on internet rumours.

As for Z-10, there are no news of your so called faulty or BS. All PA side did ask is whether the 23mm could be replaced with a more powerful cannon. As I say, there are too many so called fake pakistanis spreading malicious lies and trying to cause tension between China and pakistan using internet rumours.

Have your JF-17 ever report of major problems? So far, the only JF-17 ever crashed is caused by bird strike. Nothing else. If you all cannot provide concrete evidence instead of rely on personal account or internet blog BS. I suggest you keep all these nonsense to yourself. There are simply too many fake like you who brag non existent insider info which is nothing but lies. I can see you fly an american flag too. The American are expert in using agent to create discord between enemies.

 

[Dazzler]

I think you are the one spreading lies or based on rumour. There are so far, no concrete official news about VT-4 bidding being unsuccessful yet and is all based on internet rumours.

As for Z-10, there are no news of your so called faulty or BS. All PA side did ask is whether the 23mm could be replaced with a more powerful cannon. As I say, there are too many so called fake pakistanis spreading malicious lies and trying to cause tension between China and pakistan using internet rumours.

Have your JF-17 ever report of major problems? So far, the only JF-17 ever crashed is caused by bird strike. Nothing else. If you all cannot provide concrete evidence instead of rely on personal account or internet blog BS. I suggest you keep all these nonsense to yourself. There are simply too many fake like you who brag non existent insider info which is nothing but lies. I can see you fly an american flag too. The American are expert in using agent to create discord between enemies.

Do you understand english?

you were the one who kept claiming china will not export the Z-10 being the high end system, and the z-19 will be for export, but the world saw them in pakistan, how did that happen?

You are projecting yourself as an immature blind patriot, if nothing else.

Lies? As i said, you should not make things up when you dont know the truth. VT-4 failed on many accounts including engine, transmission and even the accuracy of main gun came up as an issue. That is why PA has asked for Type-99 for trials. Dont you read the news?

The jf-17 didnt crash due to bird strike, rather the airframe was over stretched due to data that was to be used in the training simulator. check your facts again.

prove my claims as BS and i will believe yours.

 

[Beast]

You are projecting yourself as an immature blind patriot, if nothing else.

Lies? As i said, you should not make things up when you dont know the truth. VT-4 failed on many accounts including engine, transmission and even the accuracy of main gun came up as an issue. That is why PA has asked for Type-99 for trials. Dont you read the news?

The jf-17 didnt crash due to bird strike, rather the airframe was over stretched due to data that was to be used in the training simulator. check your facts again.

prove my claims as BS and i will believe yours.

What's news? Based on internet rumour create by China haters? Can you provide an official statement or you want to use some blogger who claimed to be an insider statement as proof? I have not seen any official statement release by Pakistan government regards to VT-4 assessment.

I am not blind patriotism. Just seem too many ill malicious lies spread by China haters. If China produce so many junk then your Pakistan must be a junkies country to buy so many craps from China. I do know Pakistan has certain criteria and standard and they will not come back to China if as what you claim about so bad of VT-4 or Z-10 for so many of Chinese militaries product bought by Pakistan from warship, submarine, AWACS,fighter jets to tanks.

China manufacturing level has increase tremendously. I will be in doubt China production and maufacturing level cannot even match the 90s level if as what you claim of so many faults for the military product.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

Be aware of Propaganda.

 

[Beast]

Be aware of Propaganda.

They are simply too many US neutralise overseas Pakistanis who know nothing of China and pakistan development and has no loyalty for Pakistan anymore, spreading malicious lies and attempt to destroy Sino Pakistan r/s.

I am aware they are many of this kind in here. Their trick will be exposed here.

 

[Dazzler]

What's news? Based on internet rumour create by China haters? Can you provide an official statement or you want to use some blogger who claimed to be an insider statement as proof? I have not seen any official statement release by Pakistan government regards to VT-4 assessment.

I am not blind patriotism. Just seem too many ill malicious lies spread by China haters. If China produce so many junk then your Pakistan must be a junkies country to buy so many craps from China. I do know Pakistan has certain criteria and standard and they will not come back to China if as what you claim about so bad of VT-4 or Z-10 for so many of Chinese militaries product from warship, submarine, AWACS to tanks.

what makes you think i hate china or their technology?? your imagination is letting you nowhere mate. Having said that, the reality is a little different. China and Pakistan have worked together on so many projects that if i told you, you might not believe.

PA is pretty impressed with the performance of A-100E MRLS and is looking to induct more, why? because it offers great quality and is quite affordable. there are other examples that i dont feel comfortable to discuss. unfortunately, the VT-4 needs some serious work on its engine and main gun.

And i am still not "neutralized"

 

[Beast]

what makes you think i hate china or their technology?? your imagination is letting you nowhere mate. Having said that, the reality is a little different. China and Pakistan have worked together on so many projects that if i told you, you might not believe.

PA is pretty impressed with the performance of A-100E MRLS and is looking to induct more, why? because it offers great quality and is quite affordable. there are other examples that i dont feel comfortable to discuss. unfortunately, the VT-4 needs some serious work on its engine and main gun.

And i am still not "neutralized"

Really? Again you until now you have not provide any sources and is based on internet or non existent insider source.

This is the real accuracy of Chinese tank in a foreign competition in 2014. 5 out of 5 shot at fast speed. While the Russian T-72 even need to jam brake or standstill to get their shot.

Mind you , this is only a second tier Typ96 budget tank. Not even our top one field.

Now you are telling me a more modern VT-4 in 2015 cant even compare to Type 96 tank?