UK signs up for first three Type 26 frigates

[Guynextdoor2]

Lemon?
As in useless and crappy? Or unsatisfactory or defective? Hardly!
As in expensive? You bet ya.
HOwever, when DoD gives you lemons, you make lemonade.

QE unofficial estimates are approaching 10 Billion. At 5 billion a piece, this is how a nice round lemon looks like

@Penguin for all this money QE is barely a technological leap. It's a completely conventional ship.

 

[Penguin]

QE unofficial estimates are approaching 10 Billion. At 5 billion a piece, this is how a nice round lemon looks like

@Penguin for all this money QE is barely a technological leap. It's a completely conventional ship.

So what?

In November 2013 the contract was renegotiated with a budget of £6,200m and BAE agreeing to pay 50% of any cost overruns rather than 10% as previously.

Lemon = useless and crappy, unsatisfactory or defective

How is the above ship a lemon? It's just expensive. My, how shocking.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

So what?

In November 2013 the contract was renegotiated with a budget of £6,200m and BAE agreeing to pay 50% of any cost overruns rather than 10% as previously.

Lemon = useless and crappy, unsatisfactory or defective

How is the above ship a lemon? It's just expensive. My, how shocking.

'expensive' here doesn't mean 10%, 30%, 50% or 100%, it's almost 400%. It's like they say about Trident- it enfeebled the UK Navy, looks like they didn't learn their lessons.

 

[Penguin]

'expensive' here doesn't mean 10%, 30%, 50% or 100%, it's almost 400%. It's like they say about Trident- it enfeebled the UK Navy, looks like they didn't learn their lessons.

Its subsidisation! (but they can't call it that)

Stop dodging the lemon issue.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Its subsidisation! (but they can't call it that)

Stop dodging the lemon issue.

Dude subsidize my a project by 8 BILLION dollars? Have you wondered why Laos doesn't build aircraft carriers...coz that is just not viable for them. Britain is the only country that's being silly on this. Their new 'best technology' submarines are barely 7000 T(better than sea wolf as @UKBengali would say) and for the money they could have bought 2 sea wolf for one astute if 'program casts' are added. Finally you have a lemon called astute at the price of a sea wolf. Greatest advantage being talking bigly about how it is better than Sea Wolf.

 

[Penguin]

Dude subsidize my a project by 8 BILLION dollars? Have you wondered why Laos doesn't build aircraft carriers...coz that is just not viable for them. Britain is the only country that's being silly on this. Their new 'best technology' submarines are barely 7000 T(better than sea wolf as @UKBengali would say) and for the money they could have bought 2 sea wolf for one astute if 'program casts' are added. Finally you have a lemon called astute at the price of a sea wolf. Greatest advantage being talking bigly about how it is better than Sea Wolf.

What does tonnage of Asture class SNN have to do with anything?
Astute displacement

• Surfaced: 7,000 to 7,400 t (7,300 long tons; 8,200 short tons)
• Submerged: 7,400 to 7,800 t (7,700 long tons; 8,600 short tons)

French Barracuda class SSN displacement:

• 4,765 t surfaced
• 5,300 t submerged

Is Barracuda a poorer sub because it is smaller than Astute? Rubbish!

SSBNs
India's Arihant is 6,000 tonnes (5,900 long tons; 6,600 short tons) surfaced
UK Vanguard class is submerged: 15,900 t (15,600 long tons; 17,500 short tons
French Triomphant displacement is 12,640 t (surfaced) and 14,335 tonne (submerged)

Arihant must be a poorer sub because it is smaller than the others, right?

As for cost, US production runs number into the 40 boats, as compared to 4 UK boats. Which means development cost is spread out over much fewer hulls, which means higher unit cost. Quite simple really.

Laos barely has any shipbuilding. And barely a navy. Totally irrelevant

I would still like to hear why Type 26 would be a poor or useless frigate and why QE class carriers would be poor or useless. You've still not addressed this and are still dodging explaining your lemon claims.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

What does tonnage of Asture class SNN have to do with anything?
Astute displacement

• Surfaced: 7,000 to 7,400 t (7,300 long tons; 8,200 short tons)
• Submerged: 7,400 to 7,800 t (7,700 long tons; 8,600 short tons)

French Barracuda class SSN displacement:

• 4,765 t surfaced
• 5,300 t submerged

Is Barracuda a poorer sub because it is smaller than Astute? Rubbish!

SSBNs
India's Arihant is 6,000 tonnes (5,900 long tons; 6,600 short tons) surfaced
UK Vanguard class is submerged: 15,900 t (15,600 long tons; 17,500 short tons
French Triomphant displacement is 12,640 t (surfaced) and 14,335 tonne (submerged)

Arihant must be a poorer sub because it is smaller than the others, right?

As for cost, US production runs number into the 40 boats, as compared to 4 UK boats. Which means development cost is spread out over much fewer hulls, which means higher unit cost. Quite simple really.

Laos barely has any shipbuilding. And barely a navy. Totally irrelevant

I would still like to hear why Type 26 would be a poor or useless frigate and why QE class carriers would be poor or useless. You've still not addressed this and are still dodging explaining your lemon claims.

Arihant is an engineering project, 1st nuclear sub India has ever made. After validation the size is being increased from Sub No.3 ( 9000 to 12000 range). And yes, India has a limited role for Arihant- provide 2nd strike in Indian Ocean region, not global deterrence. Can you say the same about the stated goals for Astutes. And to your point, yes- US has 40 boats so they can build 4 more at little incremental overall costs. What business does UK have in building 4 nuclear submarines anyway? It is like Laos building 4 nuclear subs.

 

[Penguin]

Arihant is an engineering project, 1st nuclear sub India has ever made. After validation the size is being increased from Sub No.3 ( 9000 to 12000 range). And yes, India has a limited role for Arihant- provide 2nd strike in Indian Ocean region, not global deterrence. Can you say the same about the stated goals for Astutes. And to your point, yes- US has 40 boats so they can build 4 more at little incremental overall costs. What business does UK have in building 4 nuclear submarines anyway? It is like Laos building 4 nuclear subs.

Yadayadayada.
Laos can't built nuclear subs, UK can. Duh.
Why are you ranting about UK while France does exactly the same?
Why is the Netherlands still looking to build their next conventional submarine at home? (hint: because existing offerings from France, Germany and Spain don't meet our specs/requirements)

Again, what makes Type 26 a poor ship? Or QE carrier? Because that's what a lemon would be.

 

[gslv mk3]

There are not P17s added beyond the first 3, which are 5-7 years into service now. When where and in what form and number P17A will finally emerge?

This was not expected from you. The number is 7 (4 by Mazagon Dock Mumbai & 3 by Garden Reach Kolkata) & delivery period is from 2022-2025. There are year old tenders for block construction as well as helo traversing gear which confirms these timelines.

edit: just went to Mazagon Dock website & seems they are ordering a lot of stuff for P 17A project. Maybe they'll start construction soon.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Yadayadayada.
Laos can't built nuclear subs, UK can. Duh.
Why are you ranting about UK while France does exactly the same?
Why is the Netherlands still looking to build their next conventional submarine at home? (hint: because existing offerings from France, Germany and Spain don't meet our specs/requirements)

Again, what makes Type 26 a poor ship? Or QE carrier? Because that's what a lemon would be.

and which of these countries (France or Netherlands) is spending 6 billion on carriers others can build at 1.5?

 

[Penguin]

and which of these countries (France or Netherlands) is spending 6 billion on carriers others can build at 1.5?

The Dutch already have reserved 2 billion Euros for 4 boats in their defense budget, but it is generally acknowledged that this is only about half what is really needed. So, realistically, that makes 1 billion 1 boat.... for 4 (custom designed) boats. Just so you know.
http://nltimes.nl/2016/03/04/dutch-defense-considering-eu25-billion-submarine-purchase
https://blog.cyberwar.nl/2014/11/du...se-seeks-to-replace-dutch-submarines-by-2025/

Do you even know what the French are spending?

This was not expected from you. The number is 7 (4 by Mazagon Dock Mumbai & 3 by Garden Reach Kolkata) & delivery period is from 2022-2025. There are year old tenders for block construction as well as helo traversing gear which confirms these timelines.

edit: just went to Mazagon Dock website & seems they are ordering a lot of stuff for P 17A project. Maybe they'll start construction soon.

Ahow does that compare to P15/15A/15B?
Why do you think there are 6 and will be 10 project 11356 ships (which are to an extent modeled on the armament of the P17)

The currently are 3 P17, which have been in service for 5-7 years. With 17A is expected '22-25 (i.e. in 5 to 8 years time) then there's a gap of 10-15 years between 17 and 17A. That's not a continuous run. Which is what was claimed.

 

[gslv mk3]

Ahow does that compare to P15/15A/15B?

P15/15A/15B- 10 ships in 27 years.
P17/17A- 11 ships in 15 years.

Why do you think there are 6 and will be 10 project 11356 ships

I don't know the exact reason, but it could be the unavailability of mazagon dock's facilities due to the ongoing programs.

 

[Penguin]

P15/15A/15B- 10 ships in 27 years.
P17/17A- 11 ships in 15 years.

Essentially 3 different but evolutionary designs, with common elements (e.g. propulsion), each a decade apart.
P15 (3 ships) laid down 1991-1992, launched 1993-1995, commissioned 1997-2001 = 3 ships in 10 years
P15A (3 ships) laid down 2003-2006, launched 2013-2015, commissioned 2014-2016 = 3 ships in 13 years
P15B (4 ships) 3 laid down 2013-2017, 2 launched 2015-2016, commissioned 2018-2024 (4, expected) = 4 ships in 12 years

Essentially 2 different but evolutionary designs, with common elements, 1.5 decades apart.
P17 (3 ships) laid down 2001-2003, launched 2003-2005, commissioned 2010-2012 = 3 ships in 11 years
P17A (7 ships) laid down 2017-2023, launched 2020-2026, commissioned ? (2026-2032) = 7 ships in 15 years
http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...igates-from-local-shipyards-mdl-and-grse.html
http://forceindia.net/NovFeatureReport7.aspx
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_17A-class_frigate

I don't know the exact reason, but it could be the unavailability of mazagon dock's facilities due to the ongoing programs.

Or mid-project changes in design (seen also with 15 series)

 

[gslv mk3]

P17A (7 ships) laid down 2017-2023, launched 2020-2026, commissioned ? (2026-2032) = 7 ships in 15 years

That's not correct.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

The Dutch already have reserved 2 billion Euros for 4 boats in their defense budget, but it is generally acknowledged that this is only about half what is really needed. So, realistically, that makes 1 billion 1 boat.... for 4 (custom designed) boats. Just so you know.
http://nltimes.nl/2016/03/04/dutch-defense-considering-eu25-billion-submarine-purchase
https://blog.cyberwar.nl/2014/11/du...se-seeks-to-replace-dutch-submarines-by-2025/

Do you even know what the French are spending?


Ahow does that compare to P15/15A/15B?
Why do you think there are 6 and will be 10 project 11356 ships (which are to an extent modeled on the armament of the P17)

The currently are 3 P17, which have been in service for 5-7 years. With 17A is expected '22-25 (i.e. in 5 to 8 years time) then there's a gap of 10-15 years between 17 and 17A. That's not a continuous run. Which is what was claimed.

I know the french are not spending 6 billion on non nuclear carriers. The Ps are not ordinary boats. You don't know what's in them, this is the real deal not the astute.