UAE, Pakistan and Mirage 2000-9s

[denel]

moderators please close this tread; it is becoming pointless discussion. discussions are normal but it does not mean it will happen. there is just too much baggage to deal with M2K. my view, get lots of f-16s' plenty going around end of story; spend extra funds on jf-17 R&D and next cycle iteration. Anything else is just noise.

French equipment is not worth the trouble. We have experience with their equipment first hand just like you have. There is a lot of corrupt pockets which will be filled if this goes thru.

 

[ziaulislam]

I am not trying to divert the discussion to MK9 vs JF-17, I was just recapping the grand plot for everyone's benefit.

Yes, we are already operating Mirages. But the M2K is a different plane altogether. My contention is that it is not going to be a case of 'spend the same budget on M2K'. There will be huge integration and then ongong maintenance costs down the road. I mean, just going by the figures bandied by other posters on this thread, it would take anywhere from 5-10 years to integrate a new aircraft. So, you receive them in 3 years time (optimistic), that is already 2020, then you take 10 years to integrate them, you will be flying turn of the century junk in 2030. Does this make any sense to you?

thats the whole point, you need them now, not 5 years down the line. if you cant get them now , than they arent much of use given thunders and probably availbilty of new fighter

however, having said that merely discussing that option has no harm but in my opinion should only be opted if we get them very cheap with local upgrade of avionics as we did with mirage 3 in late 90s, which made a 40 years old jet to fly another 20 years. this would be my back up plan in case more f-16s dont come, next gen fighter is delayed and some how PAF doesn't feel comfortable with thunders as a strategic/nuclear role and wants a similar AC to mirage 3

so there are too many/more than half a dozen "ifs" for this to materilaize

 

[MastanKhan]

I am not trying to divert the discussion to MK9 vs JF-17, I was just recapping the grand plot for everyone's benefit.

Yes, we are already operating Mirages. But the M2K is a different plane altogether. My contention is that it is not going to be a case of 'spend the same budget on M2K'. There will be huge integration and then ongong maintenance costs down the road. I mean, just going by the figures bandied by other posters on this thread, it would take anywhere from 5-10 years to integrate a new aircraft. So, you receive them in 3 years time (optimistic), that is already 2020, then you take 10 years to integrate them, you will be flying turn of the century junk in 2030. Does this make any sense to you?

Hi,

When you become too clever for yourself---you fall on your ---- ---.

The integration period is for a " newly built aircraft " as described---that does not have an operational manual---and all the bugs need to be removed.

The M2000-9 is not a new aircraft---all its operational capabilities are available and assistance from Emirati air force is available 110%.

moderators please close this tread; it is becoming pointless discussion. discussions are normal but it does not mean it will happen. there is just too much baggage to deal with M2K. my view, get lots of f-16s' plenty going around end of story; spend extra funds on jf-17 R&D and next cycle iteration. Anything else is just noise.

French equipment is not worth the trouble. We have experience with their equipment first hand just like you have. There is a lot of corrupt pockets which will be filled if this goes thru.

Hi,

Pakistan desperately needs strike aircraft and air superiority aircraft for its coastline---corrupt pockets is least of the problems that Pak is facing at this time---.

It is a matter of its integrity that is at stake.

 

[CriticalThought]

So, here is the bold and brash option. Muster the funds to buy cutting edge technology. Sell an arm and a leg if needed. Eat grass if you must. Take a loan. Impose a new tax. Do what it takes to buy the latest technology to complement JF-17.

I will be even more bold. Use the funds to buy Rafale. India causing problem? Now here is my question: why can't UAE tell France that either we get Rafales as good as UAE, or UAE pulls the plug on their deal. You feel UAE won't do that for us? I ask you: why are we buying their old junk so they can move on to Rafale?

 

[DesiWarrior]

UAE will provide at brotherly price for sure.

Brotherly prices and UAE, I hope it was a satirical remak

I won't be surprised if UAE herself is offering it to Pakistan just to get over from mirages.

Its a stupid idea to buy Mirages unless they are giving it for free as we should rather focus on using the same money to improve JF-17.

JF-17 and F-16s should be the last purchase from 4th Generation Aircraft.

I totally agree with your opinion here. What's the point of investing in setting up overhaul facilities for this aircraft, upgrade it, get our pilots and crew familiarize with it when all this money and effort can go into JF-17 to bring it on par with 4.5 generation aircrafts. No matter how good these Mirage 2000's are, they are old and they will need to be replaced.

Also, all this talk of having 2-3 squadrons of these aircrafts ready for combat as soon as they are available, how is it going to be possible? Do we have that many trained pilots and crews for this aircraft? Are we going to be able to generate the sort of sortie rate for these that is expected of a front line fighter?

 

[Imran Khan]

Its our bad habbit

 

[BHarwana]

First and most important thing is what are these Mirages going to face in a war. What are the jets in Indian arsenal. If we are going for numbers only then buying them is fine but if we want to bring down Indian jets can they do the job against Rafael, SU 30, or the rest of jets India is flying. the only interesting thing we want to buy from UAE is eight 2000RAD Unique reconnaissance variant

 

[CriticalThought]

Here's the second less bold and brash option. If a modern aircraft is out of reach, then invest in state of the art air defence. Try to get the S-400, or NASAMS, or MICA and Crotale. That's probably the topic for another thread, but if we can't get aircraft to fight aircraft, then we need to make it impossible for the enemy's planes to fly.

 

[BHarwana]

Here's the second less bold and brash option. If a modern aircraft is out of reach, then invest in state of the art air defence. Try to get the S-400, or NASAMS, or MICA and Crotale. That's probably the topic for another thread, but if we can't get aircraft to fight aircraft, then we need to make it impossible for the enemy's planes to fly.

We need air defense no doubt but the fighter jets are not just for defense but they also help offensive. Mirages can be shot down with S300 (which India has) easily but there are only 22 Mirages in UAE Air froce that have advance counter measures. Instead of just going for numbers which we can produce in form of JF 17, We only needed these Mirages for ground attack due to their advance targeting pods, if we are getting those targeting pods from turkey we don't need these mirages. We should keep an eye on China for advance attack fighter jet and get something from the J family.

 

[MastanKhan]

First and most important thing is what are these Mirages going to face in a war. What are the jets in Indian arsenal. If we are going for numbers only then buying them is fine but if we want to bring down Indian jets can they do the job against Rafael, SU 30, or the rest of jets India is flying. the only interesting thing we want to buy from UAE is eight 2000RAD Unique reconnaissance variant

Hi,

The 8 of them would be a great addition in that role---as for fighting the SU30's---if the M2k9's cannot take on the SU30 in an air superiority role---then the BLK52's cannot take them either---.

I do not know about about you---but most pakistanis have no combat experience---. Bottomline is---you never go to battle without a proven and time tested system.

 

[aman_rai]

So, here is the bold and brash option. Muster the funds to buy cutting edge technology. Sell an arm and a leg if needed. Eat grass if you must. Take a loan. Impose a new tax. Do what it takes to buy the latest technology to complement JF-17.

I will be even more bold. Use the funds to buy Rafale. India causing problem? Now here is my question: why can't UAE tell France that either we get Rafales as good as UAE, or UAE pulls the plug on their deal. You feel UAE won't do that for us? I ask you: why are we buying their old junk so they can move on to Rafale?

Yes eat grass... plz do arms race with india... increase ur defence spending to 50 billion... but the problem is that u cant do it... even after taking loan and increasing taxes... u simply cant afford arms race with india... u cant buy f16 and talk about buying rafale... and yes uae will not pull out of rafale deal with france just because of pakistan... ask ur PM to try it if u dont believe me... and atlast again inviting u to do arms race with india

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well I think @MastanKhan raised a valid point if , the Mirage 2000-9 is available immediately then certainly a great addition so we can move on with retirement of some old crafts otherwise if the goal is to get these in 2022 then we are better of with our existing , yearly manufacturing of JF17 Thunder

And may be make push for the J-31

My personal wish was that we get 18 J-31 Prototyes and fly them for 1-3 years be active participants in improvement the particular plane , proactively. I dedicated Squadron and then based on our official feedback make be consider making bigger purchase for J-31 (Block 2)

Since UAE airforce presently have not inducted a replacement craft so I doubt why they would be replacing the Mirage 2000-9 fleet

If they are and the availability is soon then sure I think Airforce has a valid goal to make that a stop gap plane for our short term needs

Since we have ample experience with Mirage / French equipment it would not be that hard to integrate 40-50 crafts into Pakistan Airforce

We have done quite a few past projects with French

If the Airforce has shown interest most likely due to fact we already operate 180 French crafts in Airforce and would be stright forward to bring in new Jets into mix

 

[BHarwana]

Hi,

The 8 of them would be a great addition in that role---as for fighting the SU30's---if the M2k9's cannot take on the SU30 in an air superiority role---then the BLK52's cannot take them either---.

I do not know about about you---but most pakistanis have no combat experience---. Bottomline is---you never go to battle without a proven and time tested system.

Look when it comes to air force the numbers do count but with anti air systems getting too much accurate the game is shifting towards more advance tech. If you send an air-strike or interceptors in the air towards India we need to analyze the situation first of all how far we stand from India. How far is the target we need to intercept or bomb out. How much speed we require. what will be a safe route how much altitude we need to operate in. Currently there is no bomber of fighter that can fly above the range of SAM. the most recent interception was made by turkey when it shot down Russian SU 35s in the Syrian conflict. Currently SU 35s is the most advance tested and capable fighter jet flying out there, If Turkey can bring it down so can every one with a good enough SAM so If we are going for a purchase and not development we should go for something better than SU 35s. If we want to just increase numbers just keep producing JF 17 Mirages are far less capable than JF 17 and the more units we produce will also reduce the cost of JF 17 and give us more numbers and a low cost. If we want an advance fighter jet USA will not sell us F 35 until they have made F45 so no point in dreaming for it. The better option is to develop an interceptor version of JF 17 currently and get on board with China or Turkey with the 5th gen program with that money. Or invest that money to develop better RADAR or anti air system.

 

[Centurion2016]

So, here is the bold and brash option. Muster the funds to buy cutting edge technology. Sell an arm and a leg if needed. Eat grass if you must. Take a loan. Impose a new tax. Do what it takes to buy the latest technology to complement JF-17.

I will be even more bold. Use the funds to buy Rafale. India causing problem? Now here is my question: why can't UAE tell France that either we get Rafales as good as UAE, or UAE pulls the plug on their deal. You feel UAE won't do that for us? I ask you: why are we buying their old junk so they can move on to Rafale?

That's the most ridiculous childish post I ha e ever seen.

Two devrlop ing countries holding a rich western country to ransim.

Only one outcome here

 

[Khafee]

We need air defense no doubt but the fighter jets are not just for defense but they also help offensive. Mirages can be shot down with S300 (which India has) easily but there are only 22 Mirages in UAE Air froce that have advance counter measures. Instead of just going for numbers which we can produce in form of JF 17, We only needed these Mirages for ground attack due to their advance targeting pods, if we are getting those targeting pods from turkey we don't need these mirages. We should keep an eye on China for advance attack fighter jet and get something from the J family.

Do not comment on things you are unaware of.

Had you followed this very thread properly, you wouldn't have made that false statement.

UAE will provide at brotherly price for sure.

IF it happens, 4~5yrs down the road, YES.