UAE, Pakistan and Mirage 2000-9s

[Khafee]

Jordan

Portugal

Denmark to replace it's jets in 2020 the upgraded versions

Norway talks on Pakistan F 16 purchase http://www.asian-defence.net/2010/12/pakistan-keen-to-purchase-f-16-fleet.html

Dec 2010? Seriously?

@Oscar @waz @Zaki @TaimiKhan This troll is out of control. Please tell him to stop derailing this thread.

Thank You

 

[BHarwana]

Dec 2010? Seriously?

They are still there no body bought them. We need to restart talks. F35 is coming to Europe and all those F16s will be replaced we will twice the number in half the price which India paid for Rafael.

Dec 2010? Seriously?

@Oscar @waz @Zaki @TaimiKhan This troll is out of control. Please tell him to stop derailing this thread.

Thank You

If I oppose Mirage, I become a troll. Come on man get over the idea no Mirages only F16s or JF 17

 

[Khafee]

They are still there no body bought them. We need to restart talks. F35 is coming to Europe and all those F16s will be replaced we will twice the number in half the price which India paid for Rafael.

Open a separate thread on second hand F16's

If I oppose Mirage, I become a troll. Come on man get over the idea no Mirages only F16s or JF 17

You are not opposing Mirages, you are talking nonsense, despite me providing evidence.

Secondly, I haven't advocated buying them, since they are not for sale, but your comprehension problems indicate that you surely are a troll.

 

[BHarwana]

You are not opposing Mirages, you are talking nonsense, despite me providing evidence.

Secondly, I haven't advocated buying them, since they are not for sale, but your comprehension problems indicate that you surely are a troll.

So you are saying we should not buy those old pieces of obsolete french technology

I don't need a new thread I am here to comment why not to buy Mirages and all this time I have been reasoning that with you. But you seemed some how obsessed with those Mirages UAE has.

 

[Khafee]

So you are saying we should not buy those old pieces of obsolete french technology

See what I said earlier, in red:

Some people don't know when to stop, they just keep on chasing their own tails and making a fool of themselves.
Btw, Are we selling, that you are getting your knickers in a bunch?


29 April 2010 ·

Though the UAE’s first batch of 36 Mirage 2000s were purchased in 1986, 30 survivors have been extensively refurbished and then upgraded – bringing them to the same standard as the 32 new Mirage 2000-9s ordered in 1998 under the so-called Bader 21 purchase agreement and delivered from 2003. As such, all surviving UAE Air Force and Air Defence Mirage 2000s now share the same 21st Century 2000-9 configuration and, thus, represent the top of the Mirage 2000 evolutionary tree.

The Mirage 2000-9 incorporates state-of-the-art technologies and advanced capabilities that the basic Mirage 2000 lacks, many of which were incorporated as a direct result of experience gained by Dassault during the development of the Rafale, and which may be viewed as ‘Rafale technology’, with similar modular avionics, an LCD glass cockpit with full night vision goggles compatibility, and advanced sensors and systems.

At the core of the Mirage 2000-9’s navigation and attack system is a Thales-and Dassault Aviation-developed modular data processing unit (MDPU) that is similar to that used by the Rafale. This serves as the mission computer, manages the navigation and attack system, controls the cockpit display system and generates symbology for the head-up display (HUD) and head-down displays (HDDs). As a result, the Mirage 2000-9 is claimed to enjoy a world-beating, highly intuitive man-machine interface.

Though the Mirage 2000-9 is externally very similar to the original Mirage 2000C fighter, it actually represents the culmination of several stages of technical advance. The Mirage 2000-5 was developed as a private venture multi-role update of the fighter Mirage 2000 with a new Thales RDY multimode radar, a wide-angle HUD, hands-on throttle and stick (HOTAS) controls, and with provision for a Thales TV/CT CLDP laser designator pod.

The aircraft was further upgraded for export customers as the Mirage 2000-5 Mark 2. This added RDY-2 radar with enhanced air-to-ground capabilities. The Mk 2 also gained a new Thales Totem 3000 ring laser gyro IN/GPS, an ICMS 2 countermeasures suite and a Samir DDM missile warning system, higher resolution colour cockpit displays, and provision for a Topsight helmet-mounted display.

Compared to the Mirage 2000-5 Mk 2, the UAE’s -9 variant incorporates what Dassault coyly refers to as “additional operating capabilities specified by the UAE AF & AD”, and which include enhanced survivability and much-improved long-range stand-off air-to-ground capabilities.

With the USA unwilling to facilitate the integration of certain local weapons on aircraft that it supplies to the UAE, to avoid upsetting certain regional sensitivities, it has been the Mirage 2000 that has acted as the delivery platform for the UAE’s Black Shaheen cruise missile (a derivative of the MBDA Apache/SCALP/Storm Shadow) and the MBDA Al Hakim family of rocket-boosted LGBs. The original UAE Mirage 2000EAD was equipped with a ‘day-only’ ATLIS II laser targeting pod, but the Mirage 2000-9 was provided with a new Shehab laser designation pod – with a Nahar navigation FLIR in the dedicated pylon used to attach the Shehab pod to the aircraft.

The Mirage 2000-9 has a unique new IMEWS electronic warfare and countermeasures system. IMEWS was designed and developed by Thales, Elettronica and MBDA to UAE Air Force and Air Defence requirements.

The aircraft also has a new Thales communication, navigation, identification (CNI) suite, with a frequency-agile Thomrad V/UHF secure voice radio system, and an LU2 tactical datalink.

The Mirage 2000-9 is powered by the latest version of the SNECMA M53-P2 turbofan, incorporating FADEC and a sophisticated autothrottle (which provides automatic control of engine speed to maintain whatever speed is selected by the pilot).

Development of the Mirage 2000-9 was spread over five years and was divided into two distinct weapon delivery and navigation system standards, known as SAD91 and SAD92. Deliveries of 32 new-build aircraft to SAD91 standards began at the end of April 2003 and continued until early 2004.

Retrofitting of the UAE’s surviving 30 Mirage 2000EAD/RAD/DADs to the new standard was jointly undertaken by French specialists based in Paris , and at the Istres Flight Test Centre and by UAE Air Force & Air Defence (AF & AD) staff at Al Dhafra. The first two of these aircraft were upgraded in Istres , France , between 2001 and 2003, with the remaining 28 undergoing upgrade at Al Dhafra. The conversion consisted of a major overhaul and the avionics/equipment retrofit, undertaken simultaneously. The programme ran until 2007.

The Mirage 2000-9 programme provided the UAE AF & AD with invaluable experience and allowed the UAE to establish in-country software development, weapon integration, test and evaluation capabilities.@MastanKhan do note

If the country’s planned Rafale purchase goes ahead, the UAE’s surplus fleet of Mirage 2000-9s would represent an extremely potent fighter for any buyer, far more modern and far more capable than the simple Mirage 2000 name might suggest, and quite probably available at a bargain price.

http://www.arabianaerospace.aero/one-careful-owner-why-mirage-sale-might-be-no-illusion.html

 

[Khafee]

Some idiots were claiming that the M2K-9's are old and obsolete. Here is something for you to digest:

 

[ghazi768]

I believe we should temper our enthusiasm and hold horses for time being..

When it comes to comparing M2Ks with F-16 or JF-17s.. F-16 can beat M2Ks handily in terms of range and payload and variety of munitions. Also there is no comparison with Sniper, it is a class of its own and SAR is eye-popping.. but because of certain matters related to.. M2Ks main strength is its very low altitude, radar and FLIR aided, navigation to ease the burden of flying at such altitude. And its EW suite with DRFM..
But JF-17 with its excellent altimeter and our years of experience in hardware/software terrain hugging CMs is getting closer... FLIR for HUD, who knows, may be around a corner..

Also we should not forget that the state of relations between UAE and Pakistan is in a state of flux..

Plus French recently signed a deal of roughly 2.5-3 bn$ for upgrading Indian M2Ks which are now, comparatively, obsolete and lot of Micas.. giving approval for sales of UAE Mirages to Pakistan for them may not be viable.

 

[Centurion2016]

Stop the arguing boys.

The UAE mirages are already virtually sold to iraqi airforce. It seems the paf either missed the boat or are not interested .

Second the mirages are being sold at a high price reflecting the hi end technology and capability this us not a used f16/15 from Jordan. Its much more than them in firepower.
So price maybe an issue anyway.

Third the rafale deal he the new UAE fighter has not been signed yet and at 15 billion dollars its will take time to sign and deliver or the first rafales will not arrive until after by 2020.

These planes are flying and currently the best UAE have in their role.

Pakistan can neither get them now as Arabs are selling to Arabs and thectimescale and cost is outside Pakistan needs

You people Need to be realistic and accept that Pakistan is doing all it can within its means which is a maintaining a large air force on a very very small budget.

Thunders constantly upgraded and used falcons is the only option.

For those advocates for flankers or f15 that is unrealistic and will not happen

 

[ghazi768]

Stop the arguing boys.

The UAE mirages are already virtually sold to iraqi airforce. It seems the paf either missed the boat or are not interested .

Second the mirages are being sold at a high price reflecting the hi end technology and capability this us not a used f16/15 from Jordan. Its much more than them in firepower.
So price maybe an issue anyway.

Third the rafale deal he the new UAE fighter has not been signed yet and at 15 billion dollars its will take time to sign and deliver or the first rafales will not arrive until after by 2020.

These planes are flying and currently the best UAE have in their role.

Pakistan can neither get them now as Arabs are selling to Arabs and thectimescale and cost is outside Pakistan needs

You people Need to be realistic and accept that Pakistan is doing all it can within its means which is a maintaining a large air force on a very very small budget.

Thunders constantly upgraded and used falcons is the only option.

For those advocates for flankers or f15 that is unrealistic and will not happen

hmm... worried about PAF getting hands on M2Ks.. the great M2Ks which still fly while most SUs and Migs lay eggs in hangers.. the ones which saved your A$$ in Kargil with laser guided munitions.. do not worry.. chances are zilch..

 

[CriticalThought]

Though the UAE’s first batch of 36 Mirage 2000s were purchased in 1986, 30 survivors have been extensively refurbished and then upgraded – bringing them to the same standard as the 32 new Mirage 2000-9s ordered in 1998 under the so-called Bader 21 purchase agreement and delivered from 2003. As such, all surviving UAE Air Force and Air Defence Mirage 2000s now share the same 21st Century 2000-9 configuration and, thus, represent the top of the Mirage 2000 evolutionary tree.

So, we are looking at jets that are anywhere between 13 - 30 years old, refurbishments notwithstanding. Would you mind sharing the actual operating costs if you have them? What is the mean failure rate of critical components? On Wikipedia (yes, you'll laugh, us ordinary denizens of the world don't have access to shiny military journals) it is noted that the Taiwanese jets developed cracks in the engine blades. It further notes that the maintenance costs have been higher than F-16. Interestingly, these Taiwanese jets were also bought between 1997-98 and the page notes that in 2016 they have surpassed half their service life. So, if we get them 5 years later, we are looking at a planned service life of maybe 18 years at best. And that is for the new batch. So we need to look very closely at the costs that will be incurred in inducting these jets. This figure is not publicly available, but I am operating under the assumption that it will be too high to justify the value. Feel free to correct me here.

The Mirage 2000-9 incorporates state-of-the-art technologies and advanced capabilities that the basic Mirage 2000 lacks, many of which were incorporated as a direct result of experience gained by Dassault during the development of the Rafale, and which may be viewed as ‘Rafale technology’, with similar modular avionics, an LCD glass cockpit with full night vision goggles compatibility, and advanced sensors and systems.

At the core of the Mirage 2000-9’s navigation and attack system is a Thales-and Dassault Aviation-developed modular data processing unit (MDPU) that is similar to that used by the Rafale. This serves as the mission computer, manages the navigation and attack system, controls the cockpit display system and generates symbology for the head-up display (HUD) and head-down displays (HDDs). As a result, the Mirage 2000-9 is claimed to enjoy a world-beating, highly intuitive man-machine interface.

A lot of marketing buzz words used here. 'State-of-the-art', 'advanced capabilities', 'world-beating', 'highly intuitive'. The fact is that 'night-vision' is available even on our ROSE upgrades. Other than that, what advantage would this touted 'highly intuitive man-machine interface' provide over what we have today in F-17, JF-17, and even Mirage ROSE? That is something only a fighter pilot can comment who has actually flown the systems and can make an objective comparison. But, in the absence of objective data to support these buzz words, I remain a skeptic.

Though the Mirage 2000-9 is externally very similar to the original Mirage 2000C fighter, it actually represents the culmination of several stages of technical advance. The Mirage 2000-5 was developed as a private venture multi-role update of the fighter Mirage 2000 with a new Thales RDY multimode radar, a wide-angle HUD, hands-on throttle and stick (HOTAS) controls, and with provision for a Thales TV/CT CLDP laser designator pod.

The aircraft was further upgraded for export customers as the Mirage 2000-5 Mark 2. This added RDY-2 radar with enhanced air-to-ground capabilities. The Mk 2 also gained a new Thales Totem 3000 ring laser gyro IN/GPS, an ICMS 2 countermeasures suite and a Samir DDM missile warning system, higher resolution colour cockpit displays, and provision for a Topsight helmet-mounted display.

Compared to the Mirage 2000-5 Mk 2, the UAE’s -9 variant incorporates what Dassault coyly refers to as “additional operating capabilities specified by the UAE AF & AD”, and which include enhanced survivability and much-improved long-range stand-off air-to-ground capabilities.

A lot of secrecy going on here. Does it have AESA? The RDY-2 is certainly a pulse-doppler radar. No idea what additions were specified by the UAE AF & AD.

With the USA unwilling to facilitate the integration of certain local weapons on aircraft that it supplies to the UAE, to avoid upsetting certain regional sensitivities, it has been the Mirage 2000 that has acted as the delivery platform for the UAE’s Black Shaheen cruise missile (a derivative of the MBDA Apache/SCALP/Storm Shadow) and the MBDA Al Hakim family of rocket-boosted LGBs. The original UAE Mirage 2000EAD was equipped with a ‘day-only’ ATLIS II laser targeting pod, but the Mirage 2000-9 was provided with a new Shehab laser designation pod – with a Nahar navigation FLIR in the dedicated pylon used to attach the Shehab pod to the aircraft.

Right. How many of these missiles will we get 5 years from now? And what will be the price of buying more? Who gives the guarantee that in times of war France won't put an embargo on us? But most importantly, would France be OK with us integrating Ra'ad nuclear capable cruise missile on them? The argument that we integrated it with the older Mirages is invalid. They might have had a very different license agreement. What are the exact terms under which we acquire these planes? Lots of unknowns.

The Mirage 2000-9 has a unique new IMEWS electronic warfare and countermeasures system. IMEWS was designed and developed by Thales, Elettronica and MBDA to UAE Air Force and Air Defence requirements.

This system has merits.

http://www.elettronica-elt-roma.com/index.php/en/mirage

But here's the rub. Pakistan has very good cooperation with Elettronica. There is no reason to believe this, or an even better system, won't be available to us for JF-17. Five years is too long to wait for this stuff.

The aircraft also has a new Thales communication, navigation, identification (CNI) suite, with a frequency-agile Thomrad V/UHF secure voice radio system, and an LU2 tactical datalink.

What would it take to integrate this with our indigenous Link-17? I am talking both time and monetary costs. Would it be a good player in our network-centric warfare plans? What about integration with our upgraded AWACS systems?

The Mirage 2000-9 is powered by the latest version of the SNECMA M53-P2 turbofan, incorporating FADEC and a sophisticated autothrottle (which provides automatic control of engine speed to maintain whatever speed is selected by the pilot).

FADEC will be available in JF-17 Block III if we decide to go with RD-33MK. I remember reading somewhere that WS-13 is actually based off RD-33MK. Again, I am not losing breath over this.

Development of the Mirage 2000-9 was spread over five years and was divided into two distinct weapon delivery and navigation system standards, known as SAD91 and SAD92. Deliveries of 32 new-build aircraft to SAD91 standards began at the end of April 2003 and continued until early 2004.

Retrofitting of the UAE’s surviving 30 Mirage 2000EAD/RAD/DADs to the new standard was jointly undertaken by French specialists based in Paris , and at the Istres Flight Test Centre and by UAE Air Force & Air Defence (AF & AD) staff at Al Dhafra. The first two of these aircraft were upgraded in Istres , France , between 2001 and 2003, with the remaining 28 undergoing upgrade at Al Dhafra. The conversion consisted of a major overhaul and the avionics/equipment retrofit, undertaken simultaneously. The programme ran until 2007.

The Mirage 2000-9 programme provided the UAE AF & AD with invaluable experience and allowed the UAE to establish in-country software development, weapon integration, test and evaluation capabilities.@MastanKhan do note

What would be the cost of acquiring this MRO infrastructure and relocating it to Pakistan? Now here is something that interests me. Would we gain new tools and techniques that we could then apply to the maintenance of JF-17? What objective benefits would that provide? I would be interested in knowing that.

Finally, here is the thing. There is the concept of 'Technology Curve'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_life_cycle

With the Mirage III/V acquisition, we locked ourselves to the decline phase of Mirage technology. And my biggest contention is that acquiring Mirage 2000s will lock us for the next 30 years into another decline phase. Now is our time to act with resolve, prudence, and determination, and do whatever it takes to come at the frontier of technology. There simply isn't any way to change this reality.

 

[Centurion2016]

ghazi768, post: 9133975, member: 175327"]hmm... worried about PAF getting hands on M2Ks.. the great M2Ks which still fly while most SUs and Migs lay eggs in hangers.. the ones which saved your A$$ in Kargil with laser guided munitions.. do not worry.. chances are zilch..

The SUs are the ones that Pakistanis fear the most and the su35 us one that Pakistanis woukd dream of inducting.

Ps in kargil there where no su30mki they came in 2004. Kargil was 1999[[/QUOTE]

 

[CHI RULES]

Here's the second less bold and brash option. If a modern aircraft is out of reach, then invest in state of the art air defence. Try to get the S-400, or NASAMS, or MICA and Crotale. That's probably the topic for another thread, but if we can't get aircraft to fight aircraft, then we need to make it impossible for the enemy's planes to fly.

Dear perhaps u know or not PAF is involved thoroughly in training to planning in case of most of Arab air forces so more or less we may safely assume that a number of pilots/instructors are familiar with these jets. If 40-50 jets are inducted in PAF there should be no problem regarding tactics/planning i.e full integration more or less in one Year or even less. Further our techs and engineers are now reliable enough to handle issues with Mirage-9 as they are already keeping Mirage III/Vs operational.

As Mr Mastan has already explained that manuals and other stuff is already available.

If we go for specs on paper even PAF block 52 F16s may not be able to handle Rafael or Sukhois. However considering the history of F16s i.e both block/Mlued along with upgraded JF17s may be sufficient enough to defend Pak air space especially in network centric warfare. However in case of deep penetration/bombing role we require another jet even after induction of FC31 ( if inducted). The primary role of Mirage 2000-9 shall be to sneak through enemy defenses and attack ground targets from fairly safe distances. On other hand Mirage 2000-9 are capable to attack four targets. Even we may integrate a capable powerful radar of foreign origin along with IRST to improve it's capabilities. The EW suit is already quite modern and tailor made.

On other hand these jets will be used for deep penetration missions where their capable EW suit and ammo shall count. The SAMs are part of AD network but can't be relied to stop enemy entering in your airspace. The Syrian's have sufficient Russian origin SAMs yet are unable to counter IAF attacks.

 

[Khafee]

Stop the arguing boys.

The UAE mirages are already virtually sold to iraqi airforce. It seems the paf either missed the boat or are not interested .

Second the mirages are being sold at a high price reflecting the hi end technology and capability this us not a used f16/15 from Jordan. Its much more than them in firepower.
So price maybe an issue anyway.

Third the rafale deal he the new UAE fighter has not been signed yet and at 15 billion dollars its will take time to sign and deliver or the first rafales will not arrive until after by 2020.

These planes are flying and currently the best UAE have in their role.

Pakistan can neither get them now as Arabs are selling to Arabs and thectimescale and cost is outside Pakistan needs

You people Need to be realistic and accept that Pakistan is doing all it can within its means which is a maintaining a large air force on a very very small budget.

Thunders constantly upgraded and used falcons is the only option.

For those advocates for flankers or f15 that is unrealistic and will not happen

Nothing like that, absolutely false news.

So, we are looking at jets that are anywhere between 13 - 30 years old, refurbishments notwithstanding. Would you mind sharing the actual operating costs if you have them? What is the mean failure rate of critical components? On Wikipedia (yes, you'll laugh, us ordinary denizens of the world don't have access to shiny military journals) it is noted that the Taiwanese jets developed cracks in the engine blades. It further notes that the maintenance costs have been higher than F-16. Interestingly, these Taiwanese jets were also bought between 1997-98 and the page notes that in 2016 they have surpassed half their service life. So, if we get them 5 years later, we are looking at a planned service life of maybe 18 years at best. And that is for the new batch. So we need to look very closely at the costs that will be incurred in inducting these jets. This figure is not publicly available, but I am operating under the assumption that it will be too high to justify the value. Feel free to correct me here.



A lot of marketing buzz words used here. 'State-of-the-art', 'advanced capabilities', 'world-beating', 'highly intuitive'. The fact is that 'night-vision' is available even on our ROSE upgrades. Other than that, what advantage would this touted 'highly intuitive man-machine interface' provide over what we have today in F-17, JF-17, and even Mirage ROSE? That is something only a fighter pilot can comment who has actually flown the systems and can make an objective comparison. But, in the absence of objective data to support these buzz words, I remain a skeptic.



A lot of secrecy going on here. Does it have AESA? The RDY-2 is certainly a pulse-doppler radar. No idea what additions were specified by the UAE AF & AD.



Right. How many of these missiles will we get 5 years from now? And what will be the price of buying more? Who gives the guarantee that in times of war France won't put an embargo on us? But most importantly, would France be OK with us integrating Ra'ad nuclear capable cruise missile on them? The argument that we integrated it with the older Mirages is invalid. They might have had a very different license agreement. What are the exact terms under which we acquire these planes? Lots of unknowns.



This system has merits.

http://www.elettronica-elt-roma.com/index.php/en/mirage

But here's the rub. Pakistan has very good cooperation with Elettronica. There is no reason to believe this, or an even better system, won't be available to us for JF-17. Five years is too long to wait for this stuff.



What would it take to integrate this with our indigenous Link-17? I am talking both time and monetary costs. Would it be a good player in our network-centric warfare plans? What about integration with our upgraded AWACS systems?



FADEC will be available in JF-17 Block III if we decide to go with RD-33MK. I remember reading somewhere that WS-13 is actually based off RD-33MK. Again, I am not losing breath over this.



What would be the cost of acquiring this MRO infrastructure and relocating it to Pakistan? Now here is something that interests me. Would we gain new tools and techniques that we could then apply to the maintenance of JF-17? What objective benefits would that provide? I would be interested in knowing that.

Finally, here is the thing. There is the concept of 'Technology Curve'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_life_cycle

With the Mirage III/V acquisition, we locked ourselves to the decline phase of Mirage technology. And my biggest contention is that acquiring Mirage 2000s will lock us for the next 30 years into another decline phase. Now is our time to act with resolve, prudence, and determination, and do whatever it takes to come at the frontier of technology. There simply isn't any way to change this reality.

Ask this gentleman. I have already made my position clear on this thread. Not going to repeat it

 

[ali_raza]

if this thing happened it will be great for UAE and pakistan relations for decades to come.

 

[ghazi768]

ghazi768, post: 9133975, member: 175327"]hmm... worried about PAF getting hands on M2Ks.. the great M2Ks which still fly while most SUs and Migs lay eggs in hangers.. the ones which saved your A$$ in Kargil with laser guided munitions.. do not worry.. chances are zilch..

The SUs are the ones that Pakistanis fear the most and the su35 us one that Pakistanis woukd dream of inducting.

Ps in kargil there where no su30mki they came in 2004. Kargil was 1999[

[/QUOTE]
yep, Su-30s added after 1999... and IAF pilots can fly them at 30-50 feet for 500 km while singing songs.. are you out of your mind. Do not post trollish replies to me, I may know better...
Nobody is going to induct lots of Su-35s in PAF or wishes for such, they might be suitable in one or two particular scenarios.