U.S. and Saudis in Growing Rift as Power Shifts

[Tihamah]

U.S. and Saudis in Growing Rift as Power Shifts

Article below:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/26/w...g-rift-as-power-shifts.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0


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I have said many times before in this forum, Obama is a back stabber and a coward, walked on his allies in europe far east and other places, i said he is negotiating with the iranian regime from behind our backs and i will not be suprised if he strikes a deal against us, which he did.

the next US president will be more likely as Obama, since the WH and congress old policy makers are gone, all he cares about Obama and new staff is what he calls gay rights and things like that.

but to be honest we only have our selves to blame and no one else, Saudi Arabia is unified since 1922 (if i remember correctly) and was named the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in 1932, oil was discovered in 1936....what are we doing all these years until now?

why Saudi Arabia doesn't have a formidable military power? even after 1991 which is more than 22 years ago! when we got stabbed in the back by so called "arabic speaking brothers" we did not build a large army until now? no existant military industry? not even for ammunition and spare parts!

as i said we only have ourselves to blame, all this tremendous wealth is just getting stolen into the pockets of the few, we achieved almost nothing, only in oil production and petrochemichal indusrty thanks to ARAMCO, because it was founded on professional principles by experts from the states, other that we don't have much.

Sorry but it is the painful truth and every Saudi Arabian citizen know it, unless he want to burry his head in the sands.

 

[MuslimConscript]

You have APC, IFV and MRAP of your own, and you also produce Small arms since long
MP5, Romanian AKs, G36, G3, and MG3
But yes I agree that Saudi must Enlarge Military Industry Capability

 

[KRAIT]

US should partner up with Iran rather than KSA. After all OBL and 9/11 attackers were from KSA not from Iran. Most of the terrorist camps are financed by many KSA millionaires.

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

That's true, and I agree on the part which says Saudi Arabia should have done much better long time ago. Nonetheless, it started already and it's on the right track. Huge economic, educational, infrastructural, scientific, military and industrial establishments are being built. Saudi Arabian military has become one of the strongest in the region.


As for the "Arab speaking countries backstabbing", I would love you to take a long and deep look at Iraq now to realize who was right to refuse American invasion.

 

[JanjaWeed]

US should partner up with Iran rather than KSA. After all OBL and 9/11 attackers were from KSA not from Iran. Most of the terrorist camps are financed by many KSA millionaires.

Cheap oil supersedes logic & morality!

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

Cheap oil supersedes logic & morality!

The game is bigger than oil and maybe the region (ME).

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Now US has started to lean towards Al-Assad and labels the FSA rebels as the "terrorists".

But this is not the first time, since during the Iraq-Iran war, they were the ally of Saddam, but just few years later, they assaulted Saddam for controlling Kuwait.

 

[KRAIT]

Cheap oil supersedes logic & morality!

Also need to support its bases in Afghanistan.

 

[Bilal.]

@Tihamah when we took outsiders as brothers and played realpolitik on our own brothers this was always bound to happen. A fundamental rethinking needs to take place, the answer already lies in our ideals, let one brick make the other strong instead of relying on outsiders to feel strong and to brag...

 

[al-Hasani]

You have APC, IFV and MRAP of your own, and you also produce Small arms since long
MP5, Romanian AKs, G36, G3, and MG3
But yes I agree that Saudi must Enlarge Military Industry Capability

That's true, and I agree on the part which says Saudi Arabia should have done much better long time ago. Nonetheless, it started already and it's on the right track. Huge economic, educational, infrastructural, scientific, military and industrial establishments are being built. Saudi Arabian military has become one of the strongest in the region.


As for the "Arab speaking countries backstabbing", I would love you to take a long and deep look at Iraq now to realize who was right to refuse American invasion.

@Tihamah, 7abibi I don't quite fully understand your criticism? You are talking about KSA like we were Zimbabwe, North Korea or Iran to name just a few examples.

We are one of the most stable countries in the world in one of the most volatile regions of the world - the Middle East. We don't have any ethnic divisions that other countries of the region have big problems with and which I only suspect will be the beginning, such as Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Syria etc. Aside from the 5% of Shias but they by 99% will always be loyal to their own kin than any other foreign entity.

We are one of the fastest growing economies in the world while more or less everybody around us is declining or in chaos. Except Turkey. I don't include all those small GCC member states (Qatar, Kuwait or UAE) since they are part of us and I predict that they will one day be incorporated in KSA or a real union. Look out for the GCC taking more steps toward full integration.

We are soon to become a trillion GDP economy. We are already a G-20 major economy member state. We will continue to be one of the leading Arab and Muslims powers with 2 billion Muslims turning towards Makkah and Madinah which in itself always gives influence but most importantly responsibilities.

We have among the most promising and big economic, development and scientific projects in the Middle East and MENA region. The whole of KSA is one big building ground - more or less.

I don't understand all the pessimism. Did I mention that our military is strong enough to deter any attempt of any invasion from any Middle Eastern country?

Lastly, yes, some of this could be done earlier etc. but the political climate and the state of the region was not always such and wrong decisions were made like with any country. We all have regrets and whole countries are not any different.

Also which rift in relations with the Americans are you talking about? We had a similar rift back in 2003 when we disagreed with the US administration and their decision of invading Iraq. Have you forgot all the investments we have in the USA or other GCC member states?

Look, USA are not stupid. They will never leave the biggest Arab economy, probably the most influential country, a strategic placed country 1.5 times the size of Iran and a country that has been a key ally for nearly 70 years out of a sudden.

Our relations with key EUropean powers have not halted even once in recent years. Let alone, should USA suddenly abandon KSA and thus the Sunni Arabs world (which is way more prosperous, numerous in people, resources, area, potential) for the sake of just one entity in Iran then there will always be other alternatives in China or maybe even Russia.

I think that we can sit back calmly. For now I don't see how we loose anything from that US-Mullah deal.

If the Iranians attempt anything silly in the region they will be reprimanded by KSA, Turkey and the other powerful states of the Middle East or most importantly the international community.

And if they stop being a pariah state we might actually benefit from that in terms of trade etc. or a growing relation. Those Mullah's can't rule forever, you know!

All in all then it is all highly exaggerated.
It seems to me that you are a bit anti- House of Saud but leaders come and go. We don't depend on them. In fact we might have been better placed with other rulers or worse. Can't tell.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

@Tihamah, 7abibi I don't quite fully understand your criticism? You are talking about KSA like we were Zimbabwe, North Korea or Iran to name just a few examples.

We are one of the most stable countries in the world in one of the most volatile regions of the world - the Middle East. We don't have any ethnic divisions that other countries of the region have big problems with and which I only suspect will be the beginning, such as Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Syria etc. Aside from the 5% of Shias but they by 99% will always be loyal to their own kin than any other foreign entity.

We are one of the fastest growing economies in the world while more or less everybody around us is declining or in chaos. Except Turkey. I don't include all those small GCC member states (Qatar, Kuwait or UAE) since they are part of us and I predict that they will one day be incorporated in KSA or a real union. Look out for the GCC taking more steps toward full integration.

We are soon to become a trillion GDP economy. We are already a G-20 major economy member state. We will continue to be one of the leading Arab and Muslims powers with 2 billion Muslims turning towards Makkah and Madinah which in itself always gives influence but most importantly responsibilities.

We have among the most promising and big economic, development and scientific projects in the Middle East and MENA region. The whole of KSA is one big building ground - more or less.

I don't understand all the pessimism. Did I mention that our military is strong enough to deter any attempt of any invasion from any Middle Eastern country?

Lastly, yes, some of this could be done earlier etc. but the political climate and the state of the region was not always such and wrong decisions were made like with any country. We all have regrets and whole countries are not any different.

Also which rift in relations with the Americans are you talking about? We had a similar rift back in 2003 when we disagreed with the US administration and their decision of invading Iraq. Have you forgot all the investments we have in the USA or other GCC member states?

Look, USA are not stupid. They will never leave the biggest Arab economy, probably the most influential country, a strategic placed country 1.5 times the size of Iran and a country that has been a key ally for nearly 70 years out of a sudden.

Our relations with key EUropean powers have not halted even once in recent years. Let alone, should USA suddenly abandon KSA and thus the Sunni Arabs world (which is way more prosperous, numerous in people, resources, area, potential) for the sake of just one entity in Iran then there will always be other alternatives in China or maybe even Russia.

I think that we can sit back calmly. For now I don't see how we loose anything from that US-Mullah deal.

If the Iranians attempt anything silly in the region they will be reprimanded by KSA, Turkey and the other powerful states of the Middle East or most importantly the international community.

And if they stop being a pariah state we might actually benefit from that in terms of trade etc. or a growing relation. Those Mullah's can't rule forever, you know!

All in all then it is all highly exaggerated.
It seems to me that you are a bit anti- House of Saud but leaders come and go. We don't depend on them. In fact we might have been better placed with other rulers or worse. Can't tell.

Any rational nation should realize the strategic importance of KSA, but the problem is that the policy maker of USA is now not sane, they don't care about the long term strategic diplomacy anymore.

All their recent moves have the intention to destabilize the Middle East including KSA, see how fast they can turn their back and betray the FSA.

KSA has to trust no one, but itself. Also to pick a rightful partner for cooperation, i think the best choice will be none other than China.

 

[al-Hasani]

Any rational nation should realize the strategic importance of KSA, but the problem is that the policy maker of USA is now not sane, they don't care about the long term strategic diplomacy anymore.

All their recent moves have the intention to destabilize the Middle East including KSA, see how fast they can turn their back and betray the FSA.

KSA has to trust no one, but itself. Also to pick a right partner for cooperation, i think the best choice will be none other than China.

The KSA-USA relations were and are based on economic and military cooperation and nothing more. In latter years that evolved into more personal relations in the form of student exchanges, cultural exchanges etc. In fact that started to happen in the late 1960's but it is first in the recent 10 years or so that hundreds of thousands of Saudi Arabian students started to study in the US. I don't know the exact numbers but I believe that I saw a recent statistics that showed that only 3-4 other nations in the last 10 years have had more students that graduated from US universities.

USA's only truth friends are the Western European countries, UK and France in particular whom they share most in common with. We the Middle Eastern people or you the Asian people can never replicate that.

Now, the Obama administration has been one of the most poor US administrations for years. Ask most Americans or experts. But at the end of the day the congress and the lobby groups in the US, the US military etc. are pulling the strings and not the Obama administration.

I am not any supporter of USA. Only if it benefits KSA, the region, Arab world, Muslim world etc.

There are only two countries that can become any world power of worth. Those are USA - the current one and China - the possible future one. KSA has no such intentions.

Our place in the world is in the Middle East, Arab world and Muslim world. Which is powerful enough in itself but not one single body like USA (in reality 52 or so states incorporated into one big union) or China are.

No country that has any ambitions should rely on a foreign country but themselves only at the end of the day. So you are right about that.

I have been calling for an wider expansion of Chinese influence in the GCC to somewhat counter the American influence so not only to bet on 1 horse (aside from NATO).

But that will be difficult to change since those relations have lasted 70 years. The Americans know the huge importance of the Middle East as a geopolitical area, an area of immense natural riches etc. This is why it suits small countries such as Qatar, Kuwait and Bahrain to have 1 small American military base each. In return they get much more than what the Americans get.

If the small GCC states said that the Americans must leave the Americans would turn hostile and create havoc in the region. And this not being in China's immediate backdoor would probably not care and focus on other areas of the Middle East or world.

I actually think that the current KSA policy is not really that much pro-American. You know very well that our ties with other powers, European ones with often conflicting interests to those of USA, and with China are really good and only growing.

Only the future will tell.

 

[BDforever]

 

[xyxmt]

U.S. and Saudis in Growing Rift as Power Shifts

Article below:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/26/w...g-rift-as-power-shifts.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0


____________________________________________________________________
I have said many times before in this forum, Obama is a back stabber and a coward, walked on his allies in europe far east and other places, i said he is negotiating with the iranian regime from behind our backs and i will not be suprised if he strikes a deal against us, which he did.

the next US president will be more likely as Obama, since the WH and congress old policy makers are gone, all he cares about Obama and new staff is what he calls gay rights and things like that.

but to be honest we only have our selves to blame and no one else, Saudi Arabia is unified since 1922 (if i remember correctly) and was named the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in 1932, oil was discovered in 1936....what are we doing all these years until now?

why Saudi Arabia doesn't have a formidable military power? even after 1991 which is more than 22 years ago! when we got stabbed in the back by so called "arabic speaking brothers" we did not build a large army until now? no existant military industry? not even for ammunition and spare parts!

as i said we only have ourselves to blame, all this tremendous wealth is just getting stolen into the pockets of the few, we achieved almost nothing, only in oil production and petrochemichal indusrty thanks to ARAMCO, because it was founded on professional principles by experts from the states, other that we don't have much.

Sorry but it is the painful truth and every Saudi Arabian citizen know it, unless he want to burry his head in the sands.

hahaha now you talking, I have been saying this for a while that US is using Iran to sell all the damn defense products to Middle eastern countries and once there no more market in Arab countries now US is befriending Iran to open up trade with Iran and sell it to Iran, your turn of friendship will come back in 10 years while In the mean time you should start making a wish list of equipment you will need.

 

[JanjaWeed]

Also need to support its bases in Afghanistan.

Mutual interests are too many.. may not just be confined to inter state relations. But there are too much at stake for few high powered individuals & corporates from both countries. That's what is driving US to turn blind eye to many of KSA's antics. I seriously suggest people to watch Farenheit 911. It really makes some startling revelations.