Type 216: Silver lining for India's much delayed P-75I project

[sancho]

I can't fathom how HDW could possibly loose if they play their cards right. 216 wrt specs clearly shows a distinct advantage over most proposed designs (S-80, Amur and Marlin included)

That's what most of us thought it the first competition too, since the Germans offered AIP upgrade for the U209s and 6 x U214 with AIP for all of them, at a faster production pace and for less money. All in all an unbeatable offer compared to the Scorpenes, but at the end the French won, reportedly because they offered ToT of nuclear subs, which the Germans simply don't have and we needed to build our own SSNs, SSBNs. The same happend in Brazil, where the Germans lost against a similar offer, so no matter how good the U216 might look at the moment, it depends what IN really wants.
Btw, how do you know that it's better than the Marlin class? There were no official specs made public, so we hardly know anything about it.
I would be very happy if we get the German subs and since there were news that DRDO is developing a fuel cell AIP propulsion, similar to the German once, a co-development would be a great chance, but I don't see any hint that this was on offer, nor that IN requires Brahmos VLS so far.

I can see adding brahmos as these can be nuclear tipped. But when you have complete nuclear delivery platforms like Arihant class, why add brahmos??, it doesnt make any sense to me.

Very true Dash! You don't need a nuclear tipped Brahmos with a limited range of 300Km, when you have SSBNs, that can operate from much more distance, so the only purpose is the anti ship and conventional land attack capability of the missile. But even for this purpose, all the changes are hardly worth the costs and delays, it would make much more sense to try to integrate it into the new SSNs, than in these SSKs, AIP propulsion is much more important for them.

 

[Tshering22]

Let's just stick to the Scorpenes now and try to expedite it with as much resource needed as possible. Getting the Germans involved after so much of effort would transform our Navy into a zoo.

 

[DMLA]

That's what most of us thought it the first competition too, since the Germans offered AIP upgrade for the U209s and 6 x U214 with AIP for all of them, at a faster production pace and for less money. All in all an unbeatable offer compared to the Scorpenes, but at the end the French won, reportedly because they offered ToT of nuclear subs, which the Germans simply don't have and we needed to build our own SSNs, SSBNs. The same happend in Brazil, where the Germans lost against a similar offer, so no matter how good the U216 might look at the moment, it depends what IN really wants.
Btw, how do you know that it's better than the Marlin class? There were no official specs made public, so we hardly know anything about it.
I would be very happy if we get the German subs and since there were news that DRDO is developing a fuel cell AIP propulsion, similar to the German once, a co-development would be a great chance, but I don't see any hint that this was on offer, nor that IN requires Brahmos VLS so far.

As far as Brahmos VLS goes, IN has made it a requirement as per initial reports from 2009 and 2010 one of which i quoted.

As far as Marlin goes, it is a development of the Scorpene to be in the league of S-80 as far as specs go. This is a well established fact (which came along with the news of the split). Ofcourse I have no source as far as my theory on Marlin goes as there is no open source information available as you rightly pointed out. But when we consider the 6-9 french Scorpenes already under construction for IN, I find it difficult to believe that the next program will go to the French as well. Whatever "nuclear tech" we could have obtained we must already have (though I really suspect there was any such transfer. More likely is some cash changing hands!) and so going with the French at this point makes absolutely no sense to me.

All of this discussion is moot as we have no idea what IN will finally decide based on which considerations/ parameters it deems important. My objective of sharing this news was to bring this new design out as I felt based on all of my readings that this fits the IN's P-75I requirements perfectly. Ofcourse my reading of IN's requirements can be wrong.

Also, it is wise to remember that there is a difference between the best available (read 214) and one that will do the job and has not been facing teething problems (read scorpene). If IN felt that Scorpene fitted well with its requirements based on the threat matrix 10 years ago,it need not necessarily go with the "best".

 

[sancho]

As far as Brahmos VLS goes, IN has made it a requirement as per initial reports from 2009 and 2010 one of which i quoted.

Source?

As far as Marlin goes, it is a development of the Scorpene to be in the league of S-80 as far as specs go. This is a well established fact (which came along with the news of the split)...
...But when we consider the 6-9 french Scorpenes already under construction for IN, I find it difficult to believe that the next program will go to the French as well.

On the contrary! It would be rather logical to choose more Scorpenes or further developed Marlins, since we already know how to produce them. Not to forget that IN is already learing how to operate the and both saves them a lot of time and they could replace older subs way faster than we could with choosing a Russian or German sub.
It's not like we have to give everyone a deal, nor that we have to choose the best available, but we have to look what's the best for IN and India. If the newer Scorpenes or Marlins fulfills IN minimum requirements and DCNS offers ToT that we need and the Germans can't offer, we will see a follow deal for the French. The same reason why the EF has a chance in MMRCA, if it fulfills the minimum requirements of IAF and offers additional industrial advantages.
Defence procurements have often less to do with techincal specs, but with politics!

 

[DMLA]

On the contrary! It would be rather logical to choose more Scorpenes or further developed Marlins, since we already know how to produce them. Not to forget that IN is already learing how to operate the and both saves them a lot of time and they could replace older subs way faster than we could with choosing a Russian or German sub.
It's not like we have to give everyone a deal, nor that we have to choose the best available, but we have to look what's the best for IN and India. If the newer Scorpenes or Marlins fulfills IN minimum requirements and DCNS offers ToT that we need and the Germans can't offer, we will see a follow deal for the French. The same reason why the EF has a chance in MMRCA, if it fulfills the minimum requirements of IAF and offers additional industrial advantages.
Defence procurements have often less to do with techincal specs, but with politics!

Maybe! I guess it is upto IN to decide ofcourse. As I said before, my sole intention of sharing this information was to throw some light on a new development which I feel fit's IN's needs in all respects. Let's leave it at that!

 

[Dash]

Very true Dash! You don't need a nuclear tipped Brahmos with a limited range of 300Km, when you have SSBNs, that can operate from much more distance, so the only purpose is the anti ship and conventional land attack capability of the missile. But even for this purpose, all the changes are hardly worth the costs and delays, it would make much more sense to try to integrate it into the new SSNs, than in these SSKs, AIP propulsion is much more important for them.

We need to just go for AIP and that should be all, anything else is just a waste of time. I think we should just go for scorpenes with MESMA AIP. This will be a fantastic deal as we are already making it.

 

[sancho]

We need to just go for AIP and that should be all, anything else is just a waste of time.

Exactly my point, AIP is the most important feature for SSKs today and we should have focused on that even in the first competition. Brahmos VLS would be a nice addition, but is defenitely not a prime requirement, because there are other options available to use Cruise Missiles.
The issue with MESMA is, that it is rather unproven yet compared to the Stirling and Fuel Cell systems, the Russian subs are even more behind in that field, which directly hints to the Germans as the best choice. If MESMA is competitive and we get a chance to get sub launched Scalp missiles too, it would be a great chance to combine the fast production of subs with a possible licence production of Sclap missiles too (Scalp / Storm Shadow is a possible choice as a stand off missile for IAF too and could be used from upg Mirage 2000 / Rafale and EF).

 

[GURU DUTT]

i never got it ? when there are so many options avilable in western world regarding sub's with AIP tech & German's seem to be ahed in this race why are we wasting so much time , even scorpine was not as good as the german sub & U boat seems to be pretty reasonabally priced then why are we still looking ?

 

[sancho]

i never got it ? when there are so many options avilable in western world regarding sub's with AIP tech & German's seem to be ahed in this race why are we wasting so much time , even scorpine was not as good as the german sub & U boat seems to be pretty reasonabally priced then why are we still looking ?

Defence procurements have often less to do with techincal specs, but with politics!

It is expected that we got important ToT through the Scorpene deal, that we needed to build our own SSN/SSBNs, therefor a less capable SSK, or a more expensive deal was still worth it.

 

[ejaz007]

India’s Project 75 SSKs: Too Late to Save the Submarine Force?

Latest Updates:

Aug 26/13:

Project 75i. In the wake of the Sindhurakshak’s sinking, Indian media report that the country may look to lease a 2nd nuclear submarine from Russia. On the SSK front, the Times of India reports that defense minister A K Antony may be rethinking the Ministry’s slowness, and compromise his own renewed push toward an all-indigenous procurement policy.

In India, this consists of asking bureaucrats to kindly expedite the Project 75i building plan, 14 years after the program was approved to go forward. The paper reports that a Draft CCS Note with required specifications, concrete building plans, etc. will be sent to the Cabinet Committee of Security in “a month or so,” and that it contains the Navy’s requested provision that the 1st 2 submarines would be built abroad. If CCS approval leads to a fast contract, it’s entirely possible that India could have 2 operational Project 75i submarines before it has 2 operational Project 75 Scorpenes. That would shore up the submarine force quickly, but it would also be embarrassing.

The rest of Antony’s reaction consists of chest-beating about no more schedule slippages at state-owned Mazagon Docks Ltd., and calls for better and “faster” refits and maintenance for the shrunken 13-sub fleet – 11 of which are 20-27 years old. Can the Minister guarantee either outcome? No. Are they even technically achievable? If he knew, he would have been doing it already. Sources: Times of India, “Submarine shock: Antony fast-tracks projects”.

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...n-dollar-scorpene-sub-contract-updated-01194/

 

[he-man]

That's what most of us thought it the first competition too, since the Germans offered AIP upgrade for the U209s and 6 x U214 with AIP for all of them, at a faster production pace and for less money. All in all an unbeatable offer compared to the Scorpenes, but at the end the French won, reportedly because they offered ToT of nuclear subs, which the Germans simply don't have and we needed to build our own SSNs, SSBNs. The same happend in Brazil, where the Germans lost against a similar offer, so no matter how good the U216 might look at the moment, it depends what IN really wants.
Btw, how do you know that it's better than the Marlin class? There were no official specs made public, so we hardly know anything about it.
I would be very happy if we get the German subs and since there were news that DRDO is developing a fuel cell AIP propulsion, similar to the German once, a co-development would be a great chance, but I don't see any hint that this was on offer, nor that IN requires Brahmos VLS so far.




Very true Dash! You don't need a nuclear tipped Brahmos with a limited range of 300Km, when you have SSBNs, that can operate from much more distance, so the only purpose is the anti ship and conventional land attack capability of the missile. But even for this purpose, all the changes are hardly worth the costs and delays, it would make much more sense to try to integrate it into the new SSNs, than in these SSKs, AIP propulsion is much more important for them.

Definitely agreed............ssk's need aip as priority and not the vls especially for just the brahmos with only 300 km range.We are already gonna induct 3-4 arihants till 2025 and k-4 test is round the corner too.....so we should only give priority to aip only.

Regarding 216

1)its not operational,only plans have been made
2)we would need tot and again just like in scorpenes we will take enoromous time in absorbing the tot(unfortunately)

So why not go for scorpenes again without a new tender,,,,,we have already absorbed the tot and can produce these at a fast pace and france is also offering aip for these!!!

This will serve the nation better than another round of lengthy negotiations over a submarine that dosen't even exist!!

 

[he-man]

The problem is, that this would delay the competition too much and IN already evaluated subs that are available. Considering this one would mean, other vendors would provide future studies to a new competition again and that's not what IN needs at the moment with the sub fleet as the main problem!
If the Germans can integrate the vertical launchers to their U214 offer, they clearly have the best sub for India, otherwise I see a follow order of more capable Scorpens coming in (with MESMA AIP and hopefully Scalp cruise missiles).
Another great possibility would be, if the Germans offer a co-development of the U216 to India, combined with a procurement of U214 beforehand. Would be a great chance, they could produce the U214 in fast track, we get more industrial participation and the licence production line in India.

Yes scorpenes with mesma is the perfect solution..........cheaper and will be inducted at a fast rate!!

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

People keep talking about s-80,its out of competition due to weight issues.Its between u-boat and russian amur.It seems HDW has taken the lead,loved the sub.

 

[he-man]

People keep talking about s-80,its out of competition due to weight issues.Its between u-boat and russian amur.It seems HDW has taken the lead,loved the sub.

comment to above scenario

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

comment to above scenario

That Sinking Feeling: Spanish Submarines Too Heavy To Float