Type 216: Silver lining for India's much delayed P-75I project

[DMLA]

^^

I am not questioning the RFI mate. It has indeed been a long time since the first RFI. I am saying that the IN is probably "not interested" in the sub designs that came in as a result of the RFI. Yes they did evaluate the designs and they did not like them based on their own SQR's. That's the whole point of my argument. Indeed you are correct to say that probably Amur (Lada) is the only design which provides IN with brahmos launch capability and indeed all modern subs can launch cruise missiles (Even upgraded IN Kilos can do so) but the IN is interested in Brahmos fitment on its new class of subs. I am not sure how accurate the reports were from last year but I distinctly remember IN asking for additional brahmos VLS packs with 214.

IN wants as many designs in final RFP to confirm with its requirements as possible in order to limit a single or two vendor scenarios and need for re-tender. I see 216 as a direct result of the IN requirements but I do not know if IN will likely go with it or decide on another design. Of the tried and tested designs available today, I do not see any sub filling IN's stipulated role (long range escort/ attack capability) since most of the designs available today are brown water subs. Ofcourse the australian requirement might have also been a catalyst towards this development.

Navy has stated the need for tube launched brahmos LACM and AIP specifically (from numerous news reports available) which further elaborates on this issue IN faces. Moreover, >$10 billion outlay for 6 subs makes no sense if they were to eventually order additional modified scorpenes or Amurs or even 214's which cost a lot less as per P-75 deal, russian sources and past 214 deals. I for one cannot fathom this increase unless IN has called for a major redesign as per the news from 2010's DEFEXPO

defence-update.com update from 2010 DEFEXPO
...........................................
The supersonic Brahmos will also be a principal missile to equip the six Indian Navy Project 75I submarines, for which the Indians are considering the Russian Amur class sub. Another sub being considered is the German Class-214. Plans to install the missile in the fifth and sixth Scorpene class submarines were cancelled after the Indian Navy decided to equip these subs with air independent propulsion (AIP), thus extending the submarine to its maximum length.
..........................................

Below is a pic of the IN kilo being loaded with club-s. Brahmos cannot be loaded into 533mm tubes and VLS is therefore necessary.

[/URL]

So yes, it is possible that IN may go for the Amur or extended scorpene. But my reading is IN has decided to limit any possible future SSN fleet and has instead decided on large ocean going conventional subs (Likes of Soryu) in a bid to retain the underwater edge in the IOR in both littoral operations as well as long range deployments. It is interesting to note that 216 is designed for both littoral as well as Blue water ops (50% increase in max. range) unlike nuke subs (unless ofcourse you can get hold of American subs!!)

 

[jha]

The best AIP available is Nuclear..Nothing comes close to it ...We should stop wasting time and money over the non-existing designs..Simply order Super-Scorpenes and get the designs of Barracuda under the table...I am sure France wont mind if they get RAFALE + Super-Scorpenes...

 

[angeldemon_007]

^^^
Nuclear submarines are very noisy and easily detectable while SSKs are very very stealthy in comparison to a nuke sub. As far as Baracudda design is concerned, it appears that if Rafale wins we will get this design behind the curtains...
Also it looks like Neuron design is also under consideration. Whatever happens we are gonna get help from French in AURA project...

 

[Blastermaster]

^^^
Nuclear submarines are very noisy and easily detectable while SSKs are very very stealthy in comparison to a nuke sub. As far as Baracudda design is concerned, it appears that if Rafale wins we will get this design behind the curtains...
Also it looks like Neuron design is also under consideration. Whatever happens we are gonna get help from French in AURA project...

Yep the Chinese Han class was known for being very noisy but i think our Arihant class is much better

 

[angeldemon_007]

^^^
Arihant is based on newer Russian sub designs and thats why its better but much of its capabilities will be known only after its inducted...
All the nuke subs are very noisy, russian subs are quietest among all nuke subs. During war games once US navy was surprised by a european SSK as it got very close to their sub without being detected on radar and thats why US is also again considering to use SSK in its navy for stealth...

 

[Archie]

^^^
Nuclear submarines are very noisy and easily detectable while SSKs are very very stealthy in comparison to a nuke sub. As far as Baracudda design is concerned, it appears that if Rafale wins we will get this design behind the curtains...
Also it looks like Neuron design is also under consideration. Whatever happens we are gonna get help from French in AURA project...

While its true that a state of the art SSN are noisy compared to a state of the art SSK ,
but to what extend is the question

It is no doubt that Akula II Nerpa will be noisier compared say the Scorpene class , but to say that it will be inferior in stealth to a Kilo class , or a Yuan class or for that matter Augusta class will be sheer optimisim

while you are right that if Rafale wins then french will offer us additional sweeteners ,
But the problem is that Baracuda class is a bit too small for Indian Naval requirements , and Indian Navy plans to replace its fleet of 7 upgraded Kilos ( 4 already upgraded , 2 undergoing MLU , 1 planed to go for MLU in 2013 )
With 6 P75I ocean going SSK capable of carrying Both Brahmos and AIP , and weighing 3000 tons

In Indian Service , SSN will play the role of providing escort to a CBG , and in some cases providing escort to even our LPD/LPH , why do you guys think that Indian Navy has only ordered 4 SSN , coz Antony had something to say about it
Well , Navy originally wanted 9 SSN but antony refused to accept the request saying that GOVT cannot Commit 100000 Cr on a Project even Before our first Indegenous Nuke sub enters service
Navy Got 45000 cr sanctioned to induct 4 SSN between 2022-28 , after induction of 4 Arihant class Subs for 30000 cr......


Indian SSN are not meant to hunt enemy ships or submarines like there western counterparts , that would be the job of our 12-15 SSK
Infact Indian Navy has even Projected that all our SSN should be capable of Launching Nukes incase of crises.

0ne of the Reason for for modifications in P75I requirement was that navy wanted a SSK capable of long endurance missions in Indian ocean apart , a role that was earlier meant to be performed by SSNs
but now will carried out by bigger SSKs

This was also the reason why IN rejected DRDO and Directorate of Naval Designs proposal for a 4500 ton SSN about the size of French Baracuda class , even before the design study was completed
The reason being that such SSN would only be able to carry 8 Brahmos cruise Missiles and with no option of adding K15 or K4 missiles incase of emergencies.........
And such a design will not have more firepower than P75I .


The design that was agreed upon by MOD and Navy after much Haggling calls for a 7200 Ton Attack sub capable of Carrying 20 Black Shark Torpedos and 6x3 VLS Cruise Missiles (ie 12 Nirbhay + 6 Brahmos) with construction begining in 2015
Though Navy wanted a 9000 ton SSN capable of carrying 30 Torpedos and atleast 24 cruise Missiles , it was rejected by MOD saying that it would cost additional 2500 cr for each sub , and it would require far greater Russian assistance than internationally acceptable , and MOD didnot wanted Russia to be accused of nuclear Proliferation by China and some rough islamic states

 

[angeldemon_007]

While its true that a state of the art SSN are noisy compared to a state of the art SSK ,
but to what extend is the question

Sorry i didn't understand what you said ? extent ???

It is no doubt that Akula II Nerpa will be noisier compared say the Scorpene class , but to say that it will be inferior in stealth to a Kilo class , or a Yuan class or for that matter Augusta class will be sheer optimisim

I never said its Akula 2 is inferior, on the contrary Akulla II is one of the newer designs and is very good choice for India. As far stealth is concerned, kilo class is the stealthiest sub till this date. Its said that Amur 1650 is the advanced version and S1000 is even the advanced version of Amur clas but fact still remain none of them has converted into a reality so we don't really know if they are stealthier than kilo class.

while you are right that if Rafale wins then french will offer us additional sweeteners ,
But the problem is that Baracuda class is a bit too small for Indian Naval requirements , and Indian Navy plans to replace its fleet of 7 upgraded Kilos ( 4 already upgraded , 2 undergoing MLU , 1 planed to go for MLU in 2013 )
With 6 P75I ocean going SSK capable of carrying Both Brahmos and AIP , and weighing 3000 tons

Whats your point ?? Baracuda is a nuclear attack submarine, India has plans to make something around 9 of these subs now as i have heard there are three ideas floating around 1) to use the same arihant design which no one wants, 2) Heavier Russian Akulla II design and 3) Smaller and latest Baracudda design. MOD people are interested in Baracudda and IN in Akulla II and you know when these two fights, who always wins...
Baracudda has nothing to do with P75 or P75I or any present SSK and Baracudda weighs around 5000 tons...

With 6 P75I ocean going SSK capable of carrying Both Brahmos and AIP , and weighing 3000 tons

Are you sure about the weight ?? I am saying this because no SSK offered under P75 or P75I weighs 3000 tons...

In Indian Service , SSN will play the role of providing escort to a CBG , and in some cases providing escort to even our LPD/LPH , why do you guys think that Indian Navy has only ordered 4 SSN , coz Antony had something to say about it
Well , Navy originally wanted 9 SSN but antony refused to accept the request saying that GOVT cannot Commit 100000 Cr on a Project even Before our first Indegenous Nuke sub enters service

Actually plans are for 9 only but all that will happen slowly, you should not worry...right now no-one is sure about the designs and even if they fix the design it doesn't look good, it appears until the 4 Arihant class subs are completed, SSN project will not start.

Navy Got 45000 cr sanctioned to induct 4 SSN between 2022-28 , after induction of 4 Arihant class Subs for 30000 cr......

Why would a SSN cost more than a SSBN ? Its a first...Also i never heard of govet. sanctioning 45000 Cr. for SSN project. Can you post some link to corroborate this because if you are right then its a very good news and work will soon start on SSN also. Also the submarine is more likely to be SSGN rather than a SSN.

Indian SSN are not meant to hunt enemy ships or submarines like there western counterparts , that would be the job of our 12-15 SSK

Actually 24 are planned. Twelve through P75 and P75I and remaining 12 indigenous. This is why i think MDL should be kept away from P75I because after Scorpenes they should concentrate on developing Scorpene based newer indigenous submarines. P75I should be given to LnT as was earlier promised, while HSL Vizag should stick to nuke subs...

0ne of the Reason for for modifications in P75I requirement was that navy wanted a SSK capable of long endurance missions in Indian ocean apart , a role that was earlier meant to be performed by SSNs
but now will carried out by bigger SSKs

Yeah and i think U214 is the best sub or especially because of its diving depth which is maximum among all SSK and if this Type 216 is reality then i doubt anyone could beat it in the tests...

This was also the reason why IN rejected DRDO and Directorate of Naval Designs proposal for a 4500 ton SSN about the size of French Baracuda class , even before the design study was completed
The reason being that such SSN would only be able to carry 8 Brahmos cruise Missiles and with no option of adding K15 or K4 missiles incase of emergencies.........
And such a design will not have more firepower than P75I .

So you know about this but the thing is there are alot of french fans in New Delhi and in IAF. And if Rafale wons, considering everyone is watching MMRCA, so corruption is a bit difficult and so technology will be asked. With arrival of people from DCNS, Areva and high level people from french Ministère de la Défense in the last few months some people are speculating that french are offering Baracudda design behind the curtain...

The design that was agreed upon by MOD and Navy after much Haggling calls for a 7200 Ton Attack sub capable of Carrying 20 Black Shark Torpedos and 6x3 VLS Cruise Missiles (ie 12 Nirbhay + 6 Brahmos) with construction begining in 2015
Though Navy wanted a 9000 ton SSN capable of carrying 30 Torpedos and atleast 24 cruise Missiles , it was rejected by MOD saying that it would cost additional 2500 cr for each sub , and it would require far greater Russian assistance than internationally acceptable , and MOD didnot wanted Russia to be accused of nuclear Proliferation by China and some rough islamic states

Is this true ??? Sorry i was unaware of this development...when it happened ? Anything to corroborate this ? Is it based on Akulla 2 design or we be designing ourselves ? Last i heard they were still fighting on fixing the designs and recent talks suggest Baracudda is likely to come to India...

In my personnel opinion, i see advantages in both designs, but if i would have to chose, i would go for Russian design...Russians are really good in nuke submarines...

 

[IND151]

]Being double hulled and a much larger submarine, I would expect that the maximum diving depth should be higher.[/B] However, the value has not been divulged and therefore I am not sure how much it would be. Since the product is still in design stage, I would expect that they may take in inputs from the user (IN) before the final design of the submarine is fixed.

correct

single hull subs can dive up to 300 meters while double hull subs can dive up to 400 meters

source> a show on history channel

 

[Archie]

Well Angeldemon

From what I have heard from Navy

They are Not really in favour of Baracuda class size SSN
What they really want is the technology of Baracuda Class in A larger HULL , just as there are a lot of Russian subsystems in INS Arihant , though level of indegenisation will increase in 3rd and 4th Boat
In the same manner IN is looking for a foreign collaboration on the same line as French Deal with Brazil regarding a nuclear power sub as you know Brazil is developing Nuclear Powered Super scorpenes in collaboration with french
And India also wants western Tech in there SSN coz it wants them to have an edge against the chins

Also Baracuda class in french service will carry 4x3 Scalp Cruise Missiles , while an Indian Design will carry only 8 Brahmos Cruise Missiles and it will be incapable of Carrying nuclear Missiles at time of crises as required by Indian Navy

As far as the cost is Concerned , well , the figure is Directorate of Naval Designs Projection which has been agreed upon by Antony
According to DND , the design work will cost only 7000 crs while the 4 SSNs will cost 38000 ,
Infact the cost of Designing is lower than the 11800 cr it cost to Design Arihant class becoz several subsystems developed for Arihant class will find there way in the SSNs

As far as the Price of Each SSN being Higher than the Price of each Arihant class SSBN , well the Answer to that is inflation coz the first SSN will be inducted 10 yrs after INS Arihant

By the way these figures too can increase in an upward tragectory coz the Deal will be signed in 2 yrs time SBC Vizag after talk with Russian and French Collaborators , and Prices do depend on how much Russians or the french charge for TOT of some critical subsystems

Infact I foresee a Price escalation to the tune of 5000 - 10000 cr within 3-4 yrs of signing of contract as was the case with Scorpene class and Gorshkov

As far as design of these subs is concerned ,
Well as of November 2011 , Navy and MOD have agreed on a 7000 Ton Design , But Navy is still Lobbying for a 9000 Ton designed Based on Akula II but carrying several Subsystems from Graney Class.
so there is still a chance of change of Heart By MOD till the contract is signed in 2014

So incase something critical Happens like the Chinese deploying an N-sub which the Americans could not detect or Pakistanis get a Han Class Sub on Lease
Then we could see MOD release the additional 13000 crs required for fielding the 9000 ton SSNs
Or MOD could order a 5th 7000 Tons SSN sub in 2020 at the cost of 10000 cr

As was the case with Arihant class where the 4th sub was ordered in 2010 , 9 yrs after the initial order for 3 subs

 

[sancho]

I am not questioning the RFI mate. It has indeed been a long time since the first RFI. I am saying that the IN is probably "not interested" in the sub designs that came in as a result of the RFI. Yes they did evaluate the designs and they did not like them based on their own SQR's. That's the whole point of my argument. Indeed you are correct to say that probably Amur (Lada) is the only design which provides IN with brahmos launch capability and indeed all modern subs can launch cruise missiles (Even upgraded IN Kilos can do so) but the IN is interested in Brahmos fitment on its new class of subs. I am not sure how accurate the reports were from last year but I distinctly remember IN asking for additional brahmos VLS packs with 214.

I get your point and Brahmos VLS packs are possible for these subs, but as far we know only without the AIP propulsion and if IN requires both they would have send out an RFI for subs that can fulfill this. That means they wouldn't have asked for U214 or Scorpene, but directly for U216 and Marlin class, but from all reports we know from 2008 onwards, we heared about U214, more Scorpenes, Amur and S80 class subs.

defence-update.com update from 2010 DEFEXPO
...........................................
The supersonic Brahmos will also be a principal missile to equip the six Indian Navy Project 75I submarines, for which the Indians are considering the Russian Amur class sub. Another sub being considered is the German Class-214. Plans to install the missile in the fifth and sixth Scorpene class submarines were cancelled after the Indian Navy decided to equip these subs with air independent propulsion (AIP), thus extending the submarine to its maximum length.
..........................................

This confirms what I said, that you can have these subs EITHER with Brahmos, OR with AIP, not both at the same time, because you need a complete new design to add so many new modules.
As I showed in the last post, U216 is not meant for India alone, but for export customers in general. So far we have no official hint that IN has asked for this sub, I think it's more the other way around and the Germans proposed this next to the normal U214 offer they made. If so, it is likely that we see a switch like from MRCA to MMRCA and French as well as Russians will offer new concepts too.

Btw, Brahmos integration into INs older Kilo subs is not possible, without a major redesign and since P75 subs are meant to replace Kilos, it is more that doubtful that such a redesign would happen.

 

[sancho]

^^^
Nuclear submarines are very noisy and easily detectable while SSKs are very very stealthy in comparison to a nuke sub.

Only if they use an AIP propulsion, when the SSK is using the normal Diesel - Electric propulsion it's noisier! The advantages of the SSN are, higher speeds, longer endurances and more power for bigger size of subs. An SSK for example will not be a good option to cover a CBG, because it needs supply more often, is slower and can be detected more easier. SSK are mainly to operate in costal reagions, while SSNs are meant for blue water operations. SSKs today with AIP propulsion have longer endurance and are indeed very quiet, but can't use the AIP propulsion all the time.

 

[DMLA]

I get your point and Brahmos VLS packs are possible for these subs, but as far we know only without the AIP propulsion and if IN requires both they would have send out an RFI for subs that can fulfill this. That means they wouldn't have asked for U214 or Scorpene, but directly for U216 and Marlin class, but from all reports we know from 2008 onwards, we heared about U214, more Scorpenes, Amur and S80 class subs.



This confirms what I said, that you can have these subs EITHER with Brahmos, OR with AIP, not both at the same time, because you need a complete new design to add so many new modules.
As I showed in the last post, U216 is not meant for India alone, but for export customers in general. So far we have no official hint that IN has asked for this sub, I think it's more the other way around and the Germans proposed this next to the normal U214 offer they made. If so, it is likely that we see a switch like from MRCA to MMRCA and French as well as Russians will offer new concepts too.

Btw, Brahmos integration into INs older Kilo subs is not possible, without a major redesign and since P75 subs are meant to replace Kilos, it is more that doubtful that such a redesign would happen.

I am not in disagreement. However what actually happened (IN calling for redesign or design houeses proposing new designs to preempt later issues) is up for debate with no clear answer for those outside the MOD/ IN top brass. I however am quite convinced that 216 represents a major development for IN particularly when we consider its possible impact on the P-75I program. I can't fathom how HDW could possibly loose if they play their cards right. 216 wrt specs clearly shows a distinct advantage over most proposed designs (S-80, Amur and Marlin included)

 

[angeldemon_007]

^^^
Yeah SSN has its advantages. One of the top most positive features of a SSN is it can dive at twice a depth than that a SSK can dive in. This makes it almost impossible to trace a nuke sub from a satellite. If the world would have stuck to SSK it could have been managed but nuke subs make it impossible to track it.

 

[jha]

^^^
Nuclear submarines are very noisy and easily detectable while SSKs are very very stealthy in comparison to a nuke sub. As far as Baracudda design is concerned, it appears that if Rafale wins we will get this design behind the curtains...
Also it looks like Neuron design is also under consideration. Whatever happens we are gonna get help from French in AURA project...

Not entirely true....Diesel Submarines are quieter only when they are not running on diesel engines..
A nuclear submarine has many advantages over a Diesel one, I am sure you know this...

Most probably we will have new designs for SSNs and indigenous SSKs incorporating the techs. from both sides Russian as well as French.. Completely new designs...

 

[Dash]

SSNs can be traced by Sonars, so the real advantage of SSN is not the depth of dive here. I would say its endurance to remain merged is the real advantage unlike charging batteries for SSK, which makes it traceable.

---------- Post added at 06:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:01 PM ----------

I agree with Sancho here. IN will do a mistake by calling for completely new designs for P-75I. In my case just go with AIP with cruise missiles and we are done. I can see adding brahmos as these can be nuclear tipped. But when you have complete nuclear delivery platforms like Arihant class, why add brahmos??, it doesnt make any sense to me.