Type 214 submarine sale will be used to pay the Greek debt

[Manticore]

The Hellenic Navy is procuring four Type 214 submarines to be known as the "Papanikolis-class". The first, Papanikolis, was built in Germany; the following three were scheduled for construction at HDW's Hellenic Shipyards in Greece.

In December 2006, StrategyPage reported that Papanikolis was found to have numerous technical problems.Among the reported problems with the submarine were excessive propeller cavitation, overheating of the air-independent propulsion system's fuel cells, and excessive rolling in bad weather when surfaced. Seapower magazine reported the Hellenic Navy refused to accept Papanikolis; additional problems noted were inadequate air-independent propulsion system output power, inappropriate periscope vibration, sonar flank array problems and seawater leakage into the ship's hydraulics.

The Hellenic Navy officers in charge of the testing program at the Kiel shipyards (Germany) made their case clear in a 2007 investigative journalism program called "Neoi Fakeloi" on Skai TV (Greece). Retired Rear Admiral M. Simionakis, who had been in charge of the Papanikolis program for the navy, told the interviewer that the manufacturer had made 2 attempts to fix a severe balance problem in the submarine, including shifting 21 tons of material from the top to the bottom, yet the vessel continued to heel as much as 46 degrees in sea trials. Photographic evidence of the severe heeling was presented. In the same TV program, the officer replacing Simionakis in Kiel, Capt. K. Tziotis, listed 7 ongoing, serious problems with the vessel, including balance problems when traveling on the surface, problems with the AIP system, problems with the weapon system, problems with the periscope, and problems with flooding.

For its part, TKMS, the German shipbuilder of Type 214, has asserted that it solved all the boat's technical problems in 2006 (before the interviews of the Greek officers mentioned above) and claims the Greek Navy's continuing complaints about the Papanikolis' technical condition are just a ploy to justify a price reduction. Therefore, TKMS has refused to deliver the boat to the Greek Navy until all debts are paid and the Papanikolis had been lying in Kiel harbor ever since 2006.

Despite this position by TKMS, the Hellenic Navy officers in charge of the submarine delivery have repeatedly stated there are problems with the Papanikolis. In October 2008, thePapanikolis conducted a new round of trials, which showed that the excessive rolling problem has finally been fixed. The rest of the problems are considered solved. According to the Greek defence press, acceptance of the vessel was imminent.

The second boat, Pipinos, was officially launched on 6 October 2014 and is at present going through Greek harbour acceptance trials in Elefsina.

On September 21, 2009 TKMS announced that the contract with the Greek Navy for all four submarines had been cancelled due to country's arrears of more than 520 million Euros. TKMS is now seeking arbitration to resolve the matter.

On October 27, 2009 the Greek Ministry of Defence officially confirmed that they intend accepting the three boats built in Greece. The first-of-class boat built in Kiel will not be accepted, and will be offered for sale. Proceeds from the sale will be used to pay the debt to TKMS.

 

[Manticore]

On 6 October the Hellenic Navy held the naming, flag-raising and launching ceremony for HS Pipinos (S-121), its second Type 214HN-class submarine, at the Hellenic Shipyards' Skaramangas yard.
Greece commissions second Type 214 submarine
Having completed its harbour acceptance trials, HS Pipinosis scheduled to commence Sea Acceptance Trials immediately and is expected to be fully operational in November. In mid-October, HS Okeanos (S-118), the world's sole Type 209/1200 submarine upgraded with new electronics and an Air Independent Propulsion module, bringing it up to Type 214 standards, is scheduled for sea acceptance trials, in order to be fully operational by December.
Greece commissions second Type 214 submarine - IHS Jane's 360
The Hellenic Navy's Neptune II modernisation programme for three of its four-strong Type 209/1200 submarines ceased after work on HS Okeanos in order to fund the construction of two more Type 214 submarines, although due to budget cuts their fate now looks tenuous.

 

[babbar]

Its amusing how much german money is actually funding their own weapons exports, directly or indirectly.

 

[Zarvan]

The Hellenic Navy is procuring four Type 214 submarines to be known as the "Papanikolis-class". The first, Papanikolis, was built in Germany; the following three were scheduled for construction at HDW's Hellenic Shipyards in Greece.

In December 2006, StrategyPage reported that Papanikolis was found to have numerous technical problems.Among the reported problems with the submarine were excessive propeller cavitation, overheating of the air-independent propulsion system's fuel cells, and excessive rolling in bad weather when surfaced. Seapower magazine reported the Hellenic Navy refused to accept Papanikolis; additional problems noted were inadequate air-independent propulsion system output power, inappropriate periscope vibration, sonar flank array problems and seawater leakage into the ship's hydraulics.

The Hellenic Navy officers in charge of the testing program at the Kiel shipyards (Germany) made their case clear in a 2007 investigative journalism program called "Neoi Fakeloi" on Skai TV (Greece). Retired Rear Admiral M. Simionakis, who had been in charge of the Papanikolis program for the navy, told the interviewer that the manufacturer had made 2 attempts to fix a severe balance problem in the submarine, including shifting 21 tons of material from the top to the bottom, yet the vessel continued to heel as much as 46 degrees in sea trials. Photographic evidence of the severe heeling was presented. In the same TV program, the officer replacing Simionakis in Kiel, Capt. K. Tziotis, listed 7 ongoing, serious problems with the vessel, including balance problems when traveling on the surface, problems with the AIP system, problems with the weapon system, problems with the periscope, and problems with flooding.

For its part, TKMS, the German shipbuilder of Type 214, has asserted that it solved all the boat's technical problems in 2006 (before the interviews of the Greek officers mentioned above) and claims the Greek Navy's continuing complaints about the Papanikolis' technical condition are just a ploy to justify a price reduction. Therefore, TKMS has refused to deliver the boat to the Greek Navy until all debts are paid and the Papanikolis had been lying in Kiel harbor ever since 2006.

Despite this position by TKMS, the Hellenic Navy officers in charge of the submarine delivery have repeatedly stated there are problems with the Papanikolis. In October 2008, thePapanikolis conducted a new round of trials, which showed that the excessive rolling problem has finally been fixed. The rest of the problems are considered solved. According to the Greek defence press, acceptance of the vessel was imminent.

The second boat, Pipinos, was officially launched on 6 October 2014 and is at present going through Greek harbour acceptance trials in Elefsina.

On September 21, 2009 TKMS announced that the contract with the Greek Navy for all four submarines had been cancelled due to country's arrears of more than 520 million Euros. TKMS is now seeking arbitration to resolve the matter.

On October 27, 2009 the Greek Ministry of Defence officially confirmed that they intend accepting the three boats built in Greece. The first-of-class boat built in Kiel will not be accepted, and will be offered for sale. Proceeds from the sale will be used to pay the debt to TKMS.

Are these those used submarines we are interested in ?????

 

[Manticore]

Greece owes Thyssenkrupp EUR600 million, says company

Gerrard Cowan JDW Europe Editor


The Greek government owes Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) approximately EUR600 million (USD756 million) in overdue payments for contracted programmes, a spokesman for the shipbuilder has told Jane's .

The money covers a number of programmes and in some cases stretches back years, he said.

EUR108 million is owed for the Neptune II programme, which covers repairs and upgrades to the Hellenic Navy's Glavkos-class Type 209 submarines: HS Okeanos , HS Poseidon and HS Ampitrite .

The overruns are connected specifically to a proposal to substitute the modernisation of two of the boats - Poseidon and Ampitrite - with new submarines.

Evangelos Vasilakos, general director of the Greek Defence Procurement Agency, confirmed this, saying: "Thyssenkrupp have shown very good will [towards Greece]."

He did not confirm or deny the EUR600 million figure, but he described it as "crude".

"Private companies have their own ways of calculating budgets," he told Jane's . "It's totally different for states."

The Type 214 submarine project is also over schedule for payments, the Thyssenkrupp spokesman said. Although he declined to provide a figure, he said it is significantly higher than the EUR108 million owed for the Type 209 replacements. This would appear to put it well above the figure of EUR100 million that was reported last year.

Further details of the cost overruns were not available.

Greece originally signed a contract for three Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems Type 214 submarines in February 2000, followed by a contract for a fourth in May 2002. In November 2006 it refused to accept the first boat in the class, Papanikolis , on the grounds of what it termed "technical deficiencies".

The parties have been in negotiations ever since; these are "ongoing" with no resolution yet in sight.

The first Type 214 submarine, Papanikolis , is complete and remains at the Kiel Shipyard in Germany. It is ready for delivery when Athens and TKMS conclude their negotiations.

The second Type 214 boat, Pipinos , was launched in February 2007. It finalised harbour acceptance trials (HAT) in March 2008 and was declared ready for sea acceptance trials (SAT).

However, the TKMS spokesman said that, because of the lack of resolution regarding Papanikolis , no clearance for SAT has been given by the customer.

Under Neptune II the Greek Ministry of Defence planned originally to retain three, or possibly four, of its eight legacy Type 209s. Each upgraded hull would receive a 6.5 m hull 'plug-in' extension (increasing submerged displacement to around 1,500 tons) with a two-cell air-independent propulsion system based on the Siemens/HDW PEM fuel cell that is a feature of Type 214 boats.

------

Greece, German Firm Settle Long-Running Sub Clash | Defense News | defensenews.com
Greece announced March 13 that it had reached an agreement with German defense group ThyssenKrupp in a long-running dispute over the supply of four submarines.

The row began when Athens rejected the first submarine supplied by ThyssenKrupp, the Papanikolis, on the grounds that it was defective.

Greek Defense Minister Evangelos Venizelos said a resolution had been found for the deal, which has been blocked since 2006.

"We have reached a solution, which should be signed [March 18] and which protects the interests of the Greek navy as it means it will finally receive modern, functional submarines," Venizelos said in a statement released by the ministry.

Media reports in Greece suggest that under the agreement, Athens will acknowledge receipt of the Papanikolis, which will be sold to a third party, and order two further submarines from Hellenic Shipyards.

In return, the defense company will drop a compensation claim for breach of contract, reports said.

ThyssenKrupp bought Hellenic Shipyards, near Athens, from the Greek government in 2005, and the submarine deal should smooth the way for the conglomerate to shed 75 percent of its stake to the Abu Dhabi Mar group.

The Greek government, struggling with a debt crisis and facing a huge effort to restructure the economy, said March 1 the sale of the shipyard offered a chance to save the jobs of 1,400 workers.

 

[That Guy]

Its amusing how much german money is actually funding their own weapons exports, directly or indirectly.

Germany is the undeclared leader of the EU, their money is keeping the union going. Amusing? Yes. Surprising? No.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

There was a documentary regarding the U212's rusting in the Greek Docks and the bail out for these Docks was the Costa Concordia being sent there to atleast give them some work so that they are able to pay the workers who were waiting for their salaries.

There is no indication that Germany would be repurchasing or these be sent to Pakistan however the Turkish Navy was interested but the Greeks refused to give them.

 

[truthseeker2010]

The Hellenic Navy is procuring four Type 214 submarines to be known as the "Papanikolis-class". The first, Papanikolis, was built in Germany; the following three were scheduled for construction at HDW's Hellenic Shipyards in Greece.

In December 2006, StrategyPage reported that Papanikolis was found to have numerous technical problems.Among the reported problems with the submarine were excessive propeller cavitation, overheating of the air-independent propulsion system's fuel cells, and excessive rolling in bad weather when surfaced. Seapower magazine reported the Hellenic Navy refused to accept Papanikolis; additional problems noted were inadequate air-independent propulsion system output power, inappropriate periscope vibration, sonar flank array problems and seawater leakage into the ship's hydraulics.

The Hellenic Navy officers in charge of the testing program at the Kiel shipyards (Germany) made their case clear in a 2007 investigative journalism program called "Neoi Fakeloi" on Skai TV (Greece). Retired Rear Admiral M. Simionakis, who had been in charge of the Papanikolis program for the navy, told the interviewer that the manufacturer had made 2 attempts to fix a severe balance problem in the submarine, including shifting 21 tons of material from the top to the bottom, yet the vessel continued to heel as much as 46 degrees in sea trials. Photographic evidence of the severe heeling was presented. In the same TV program, the officer replacing Simionakis in Kiel, Capt. K. Tziotis, listed 7 ongoing, serious problems with the vessel, including balance problems when traveling on the surface, problems with the AIP system, problems with the weapon system, problems with the periscope, and problems with flooding.

For its part, TKMS, the German shipbuilder of Type 214, has asserted that it solved all the boat's technical problems in 2006 (before the interviews of the Greek officers mentioned above) and claims the Greek Navy's continuing complaints about the Papanikolis' technical condition are just a ploy to justify a price reduction. Therefore, TKMS has refused to deliver the boat to the Greek Navy until all debts are paid and the Papanikolis had been lying in Kiel harbor ever since 2006.

Despite this position by TKMS, the Hellenic Navy officers in charge of the submarine delivery have repeatedly stated there are problems with the Papanikolis. In October 2008, thePapanikolis conducted a new round of trials, which showed that the excessive rolling problem has finally been fixed. The rest of the problems are considered solved. According to the Greek defence press, acceptance of the vessel was imminent.

The second boat, Pipinos, was officially launched on 6 October 2014 and is at present going through Greek harbour acceptance trials in Elefsina.

On September 21, 2009 TKMS announced that the contract with the Greek Navy for all four submarines had been cancelled due to country's arrears of more than 520 million Euros. TKMS is now seeking arbitration to resolve the matter.

On October 27, 2009 the Greek Ministry of Defence officially confirmed that they intend accepting the three boats built in Greece. The first-of-class boat built in Kiel will not be accepted, and will be offered for sale. Proceeds from the sale will be used to pay the debt to TKMS.

Why don't PN goes for them, would be cheaper than new subs, but will be totally worth it, since they are not that old. And PN has always wanted to get their hands on U-boats.

 

[Zarvan]

Why don't PN goes for them, would be cheaper than new subs, but will be totally worth it, since they are not that old. And PN has always wanted to get their hands on U-boats.

Actually Pakistan is in talks with Europe for older submarines too but we would buy 8 from China and try to get few old ones from either UK or France or Germany.

 

[flamer84]

There was a documentary regarding the U212's rusting in the Greek Docks and the bail out for these Docks was the Costa Concordia being sent there to atleast give them some work so that they are able to pay the workers who were waiting for their salaries.

There is no indication that Germany would be repurchasing or these be sent to Pakistan however the Turkish Navy was interested but the Greeks refused to give them.

Greece doesn't have U212's only Italy and Germany do and they're not exporting it.

Actually Pakistan is in talks with Europe for older submarines too but we would buy 8 from China and try to get few old ones from either UK or France or Germany.

There are no "old ones" to be sold from these 3 countries:France and UK have nuclear subs so that's a no go while Germany has U212's which are not for export as this type has only been inducted into the 2 partner nations-Italy,Germany.

 

[Zarvan]

Greece doesn't have U212's only Italy and Germany do and they're not exporting it.




There are no "old ones" to be sold from these 3 countries:France and UK have nuclear subs so that's a no go while Germany has U212's which are not for export as this type has only been inducted into the 2 partner nations-Italy,Germany.

Don't know about it but our Navy has said they are in talks with these countries for older Submarines

 

[Bang Galore]

Don't know about it but our Navy has said they are in talks with these countries for older Submarines

Very unlikely that the Germans will sell it to Pakistan now. Germany is in the middle of a competition to sell that type to India. Would guarantee being booted out from there is they sold it to Pakistan.

 

[truthseeker2010]

Actually Pakistan is in talks with Europe for older submarines too but we would buy 8 from China and try to get few old ones from either UK or France or Germany.

uk don't hav SSK's, the ones in canada are too old.
French might not be able to go ahead due to their deal of scorpenes with indians.
The only one left is Germans, and this could be a good oportunity, since there is some liquidity with PN, and they looked focused on the underwater arm.

If the deal went through..... then 8 chinese + 3 german + 3 existing. 14 subs will surely secure PN till 2050. And for IN it will be their worst nightmare coming true.

 

[Zarvan]

uk don't hav SSK's, the ones in canada are too old.
French might not be able to go ahead due to their deal of scorpenes with indians.
The only one left is Germans, and this could be a good oportunity, since there is some liquidity with PN, and they looked focused on the underwater arm.

If the deal went through..... then 8 chinese + 3 german + 3 existing. 14 subs will surely secure PN till 2050. And for IN it will be their worst nightmare coming true.

Yes and I don't know but I trust Navy Guys they have something in mind to get from Europe

 

[Manticore]